December 18, 2013 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #611608
Kotzker Rebbe On The Dormant Monster Within
The Yehudi HaKadosh MePishischa was a Chosid of the Chozeh of Lublin, until one day one of the elder statesmen in the Chozeh’s court, whom the Chozeh held to be a big tzaddik, slandered the Yehudi HaKadosh to the Chozeh. The Chozeh relied on this saintly Chosid, and that was the end of the relationship between the Yehudi HaKadosh and the Chozeh. No explaining would rectify the matter, the Chozeh would not hear of it.
Commenting on this episode the Kotzker Rebbe marveled at the power of the Yetzer Hara. For sixty years the Yetzer Hara helped this Rasha do only mitzvos and maasim tovim and helped him steer clear of any aveira. Why? Because he was investing in him for the future. He knew that one day he will use this person as a vehicle with which to cause machlokes and therefore made sure to keep his reputation pristine in order that the Chozeh will rely on him and his “tzidkus”.
Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory but these sentiments are echoed by Rav Chatzkel Levenstein. Rav Chatzkel says that if someone displays a bad middah even at an advanced age, after never succumbing to this middah in the past, surely it was in him all along. It just never had any occasion to go on display until now.
A person is born with bad middos, says Rav Chatzkel. Either you fight them and rid yourself of them, or they will lfester quietly until the right moment presents itself. That moment is not a deviation of your otherwise excellent middos. Rather it is an indication of the monster within you, that was never vanquished.December 18, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #994897
I would think that the Chozeh would be able to see who was the real tzaddik.December 18, 2013 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #994898YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
I was about to say that.December 18, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #994899
I would think one can only see what Hashem allows him to see. For whatever reason (maybe it was a nisayon I really don’t know) the chozeh was supposed to disbelieve this Jew and he didn’t. Or maybe this was the Ratzon Hashem that for whatever reason there should be a “fight” between the 2 of them. If you know the stories about the early Rebbes you’ll understand what I mean. Dont over analyze that aspect of the story.December 18, 2013 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #994900
I like your second pshat better than your first pshat.December 18, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #994901
Dovid Hamelech is considered the first of the Baalei Ruach Hakodesh, and yet Rav holds that he accepted Lashon Hara.
The Sefer Chasidim says that sometimes a darkness descends from heaven to cloud the eyes of Tzadikim, to create a fight.December 19, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #994902
The OP is from revach.net
Or maybe this was the Ratzon Hashem that for whatever reason there should be a “fight” between the 2 of them.
If this is true, this wouldn’t be a plan of the yetzer hara, which is it says the Kotzker Rebbe is supposed to have said.
I don’t have issue with the Chozer not seeing what was correct, even if it’s hard to believe.
What I have issue with is that the yetzer hara had this plan to keep a person squeeky clean and not bother him at all his whole life in order to trip up the chozer. I don’t believe it.
And I don’t think that what Rav Chatzkel Levenstein said gives merit to this “conspiracy theory”.December 19, 2013 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #994903
Even if it is ratzon Hashem for there to be a fight still this person had no business being the shaliach. Lemaysah this person said Lashon hara and the only reason his loshon hora was accepted was that he was assumed to be a genuinely good person. There is a concept of megalgelin chov al yeday chayav.December 20, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #994904Torah613TorahParticipant
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T613, I was thinking the same thing, but trying to figure out a way for the two ideas not to be a contradiction.
Maybe midos are different than other nisyonos?December 20, 2013 3:44 am at 3:44 am #994906
Al Taamin does not come in here at all. Why did you bring it in?December 20, 2013 5:37 am at 5:37 am #994907
“What I have issue with is that the yetzer hara had this plan to keep a person squeaky clean and not bother him at all his whole life in order to trip up the chozer. I don’t believe it.”
Listen the Kotzker said it. He obviously believed it. You don’t believe it ok. And who are you? Not trying to be mean but if you disagree with something you need to explain why! Do you have an acceptable source that says otherwise or is this purely boich speaking?December 20, 2013 6:26 am at 6:26 am #994908
WIY, did you hear the Kotzker say it?
HaLeiVi, I think Al Ta’amin is quite relevant. It assumes that even if a person worked on himself his entire life, he might falter at the end. If so, then a sole aveira isn’t an indication that he was only sinless because of the yetzer hora’s deviousness; maybe he was a tzaddik, but nevertheless fell prey.December 20, 2013 6:46 am at 6:46 am #994909
Did you not learn the Daf recently?
If someone went off the Derech later in life is one thing. The way it is being applied here is wrong.December 20, 2013 6:55 am at 6:55 am #994910
I don’t know which gemara you’re referring to.
What you seem to be suggesting is that a person can entirely abandon Torah and mitzvos, and that would be based on the idea of Al Ta’amin, but couldn’t do one aveira. That doesn’t make sense to me.December 20, 2013 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #994911
First of all, Al Taamin is not necessarily about Tzadikim. Abaye holds that a Tzadik will not go off. The Gemara we had recently says that if most of his life he was a Tzadik, Hashem will make sure it stays that way. Yishmor Raglei Chasidav. The Tosafos Yeshanim reconciles this with Yochanan Cohen Gadol that although Hashem puts things in place to almost force him not to sin, he can overcome them.
The Maharal explains that this is what happened with David Hamelech. As Chazal explain, it turned out not to be a Chet. But since, according to his actions it would have been, it was held against him. Ayin Sham.
If someone overcomes Hashem’s messages and roadblocks it is because he is heading in a certain direction. Now, not only is this example very uncommon, that we always have to point back to Yochanan Cohen Gadol, it is also never used to say that Tzadikim are Chote ChV from time to time. Remember the Gemara in Brachos 19 about someone who spoke about a Tzadik.December 20, 2013 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #994912
Firstly, Rava argues.
Secondly, if this approach was reasonable (that there’s hidden rishus the whole time), why did Abaye need to say that Yochanan was Yanai, he could have said that he was always a hidden rasha.
Thirdly, I think you misunderstand the Tos. Yeshanim (see Ritv”a) but either way, why wouldn’t that be a reasonable explanation of the Chozeh’s shamash’ behavior?
Al Ta’amin does belong in the discussion.December 20, 2013 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #994913Sam2Participant
HaLeiVi: Doesn’t the Gemara say about Yochanan that it had to be that “Tina Haya B’libo” because otherwise it’s not possible?December 20, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #994914
Hidden Rishus? What are you talking about?
I didn’t realize you were refering to the talmid.December 20, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #994915
Listen the Kotzker said it. He obviously believed it. You don’t believe it ok. And who are you? Not trying to be mean but if you disagree with something you need to explain why! Do you have an acceptable source that says otherwise or is this purely boich speaking?
I don’t believe the reasoning and therefore, obviously I don’t believe the Kotzker said it. It doesn’t make sense to me. Which is why I posted the story, to see if someone here can bring a source and rebuttal why it does make sense.December 20, 2013 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #994916
Yes, the talmid. Hidden, dormant, whichever you prefer.December 20, 2013 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #994917
You are quoting Sam or me? I didn’t say anything about hidden or dormant. Actually, I would have answered the Tosafos Yeshanim’s differently.
To recap my point, Al taamin does not justify saying a Tzadik did a Chet, but it would justify going sour. It can apply to this Talmid, but I didn’t realize you meeant it about him.
The fact that, according to this story, the Choseh was tricked or led to believe is a hard pill but in light of Yehoshua bin Nun and Achiya Hashiloni being tricked we see that it is not that simple. Rebbeinu Saadya Gaon says that Hashem purposely wanted Neviim to be fooled so that we see that it is Nevua from Hashem and not a special sense.
Nor does this mean that the Talmid became a Rasha. He probably meant what he said. The Kotzker had a nuanced Derech that is hard for binary thinking people to handle.December 21, 2013 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #994918
You are quoting Sam or me? I didn’t say anything about hidden or dormant.
The title of the Revach article.
My point is that the conclusion allegedly arrived at by the Kotzker as to the explanation for this chossid’s behavior doesn’t seem as likely as that he simply did an aveirah.December 22, 2013 1:06 am at 1:06 am #994919peacefullMember
This story of the Choize teaches as the Kotzk’er said that the Yetzer Hara does leave off of someone for a greater investment of his, when he knows his clients. Of course everything was Bashert, Hashem had an intention that the 2 Tzadikim should each go on their own way, but that doesn’t mean that it must be with anger & hate, Hashem has plenty ways. This guy was Shluchoy Shel Yetzer Hara – Komoiso. Reb Yechezkel brought out the point in which the Yetzer Hara had known that this guy was his great client. The Gimora of Al Tamin etc is regarding the guy himself, although he sees himself so pure & spiritually he can never know ….
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