June 24, 2014 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #613072
During the course of ones lifetime one may have borrowed money or objects that was never returned either due to forgetfulness or negligence. Or we may have caused damage that we didn’t realize. Other times we may have unknowingly underpaid a retailer for merchandise. Time passes, people move on and things are forgotten.
If someone is a baal teshuva he may have stolen stuff before he became a shomer mitzvos. Even someone who always was on the derech may have done misdeeds against others in his past that he no longer kept track of.
How can one (or is it even possible) to obtain forgiveness of these financial debts – or any other type of bein adam l’chaiveiro wrongdoing – that one no longer specifically remembers?June 24, 2014 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1100100
The only eitzah is to daven that the people we wronged will forgive us.June 24, 2014 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1100101
splenda: It’s not. HKBH judges our whole lives in perspective, but the Gemara explicitly says that it’s not possible to do T’shuvah for these things. (And, what’s worse, it seems quite impossible for the concept of a Tinok Shenishba to exist by most Bein Adam L’chaveiro things, unless your parents are Chamas or hate-teaching societies.)June 24, 2014 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1100102
So a baal teshuva keeps his 30 year rap sheet of bein adam l’chaveiro aveiros without recourse?June 24, 2014 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1100103
So a baal teshuva keeps his 30 year rap sheet of bein adam l’chaveiro aveiros without recourse?
He’s by definition not a baal teshuvah for those things.
Sam, I am skeptical that there’s tinok shenishbah for mitzvos sichliyos.June 24, 2014 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1100104
Sam, what does the Gemara explicitly say that it’s not possible to do teshuvah for?June 25, 2014 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1100105
There’s a list of a bunch. I forget where they are. Shabbos 31 jumps to mind but I don’t think that’s right. A few examples are where you steal but are unable to return it because you don’t know who you stole from, and similar things. I think the Rambam lists them off in Hilchos T’shuvah as well.June 25, 2014 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1100106To be or not to beMember
aren’t people moichel all debts by hatoras nedorim?June 25, 2014 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1100107SayIDidIt™Participant
I heard that for these type of things one should donate Seforim or other items (maybe starting a gemach etc.) that will be used by the public and this can be a “replacement” for monies that were not 100% yours. Of course if you can pay back to the wronged party, that would be the best way.
SiDi™June 25, 2014 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1100108
The takeaway here is that after an extended period of doing bein adam l’chaveiro aveiros, becoming a full baal teshuva is impossible.June 25, 2014 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1100109seeallsidesParticipant
It is so nice to see somebody worrying about this – Today’s style seems to be to borrow money without repaying it, and just go merrily along! or get a corrupt toen/bais din to make a settlement where the debt is clear, but they have skilled arguments to refute it. I can’t imagine why they don’t just repay their debts, but people always seem to be able to justify their own actions somehow. I think that if you stole money from people that you can no longer repay, it is an (rabbinically advised) idea to give that money to tzedaka. I do worry about items that come from tzedaka campaigns – am I obligated to pay for the book – even if I didn’t want it, and my budget doesn’t include books. May we all be zoche to possess only OUR things, may we have plenty so that we don’t need to steal (or borrow) !June 25, 2014 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1100110
I do worry about items that come from tzedaka campaigns – am I obligated to pay for the book – even if I didn’t want it
Do not worry about that.June 25, 2014 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1100111
Sam2 dangerous, false response. Orchos tzadikim among others i’m forgetting talk about this topic, one is meazev the aveirah davens and does real teshuvah, and he will be put into situations to be maitiv the rabim amongst which are his victims.
Judaism is not christianity, if you wish to do teshuvah sincerely you are almost never beyond salvation.June 25, 2014 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1100112
Nowadays we are saying a lot of tehillim for #ourboys. One of the pesukim we say is “ki imcha haslicha lemaan tevaray”. The pshat in that pasuk is that if there was no possibility for slichas and mechilas avonos there would be no yiras shamayim because we are already doomed, so eat drink and be merry because what’s the difference. Not what HKB”H wants, he wants us to be davuk to him and do teshuvah for our shortcomings.June 25, 2014 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1100113–Participant
I do worry about items that come from tzedaka campaigns – am I obligated to pay for the book – even if I didn’t want it, and my budget doesn’t include books.
(b) Any merchandise mailed in violation of subsection (a) of this section, or within the exceptions contained therein, may be treated as a gift by the recipient, who shall have the right to retain, use, discard, or dispose of it in any manner he sees fit without any obligation whatsoever to the sender. All such merchandise shall have attached to it a clear and conspicuous statement informing the recipient that he may treat the merchandise as a gift to him and has the right to retain, use, discard, or dispose of it in any manner he sees fit without any obligation whatsoever to the sender.June 26, 2014 3:35 am at 3:35 am #1100114
icant: It’s nice to know that Gemaras and Rambams are wrong and dangerous. See Rambam Hilchos T’shuvah 4:3 and look up his Mekoros in the Nosei Keilim there.June 26, 2014 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1100115
Sam, learn mussar. If not paid back nothing to be done. If you do sincere teshuva, HKB”H puts you in situation to be maitiv the rabim which is considered as paying back since you are benefiting the victims. A little information is a dangerous thing.June 26, 2014 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1100116
icant: I clearly said that Hashem takes everything in your life into account. So, presumably, if one does real T’shuvah HKBH goes pretty easy on you in such a case. The fact is, the Rambam and Gemara say that full T’shuvah is impossible in such a case.September 13, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1100117Mashiach AgentMember
bump this for bump day for the perfect topic for todays date of time for teshuva
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