Doing Teshuva for someone else

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  • #616315

    Joseph
    Participant

    Can someone do teshuva on behalf of someone else? How so? Is there any difference if it is for a living person versus a departed soul? Is it any less effective than one doing teshuva for himself?

    #1192062

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I volunteer Mashiach Agent to do TESHUVA for all of us.

    #1192063

    i am already crying out to hashem with fasting & mourning for years begging Hashem to forgive his loving nation like rochel imeinu & Yirmiiyahu hanavi. if you know how they davened & mourned then you should realize that’s the level I have been crying ^& mourning for years

    I AM FASTING NOW SINCE LAST NIGHT UNTIL 72 TONIGHT & REPEAT IT EVERYDAY. for all those that wont do teshuva to bring mashiach

    its time you finally started caring for others. wakeup from todays generation of self-centeredness & instant gratification where everything is ME ME ME & ONLY ME

    #1192064

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Joseph why do you assume this other party need to do teshuva be dan lekaf zchus are you so perfect you do not need to worry about yourself>?

    #1192065

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Poor Mashiach Agent. It’s not easy being the only person who is perfect and knows exactly what G-d wants from everyone.

    #1192066

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mashiach Agent: The first rule of being like Rochel Imeinu or Yirmiyahu HaNavi is to not think you’re like them. Also, fasting for 72 hours straight every day is quite a feat. I would love to be able to learn 72 hours straight every day.

    #1192067

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He meant until Rabeinu Tam zman.

    #1192068

    TRUEBT
    Participant

    No. One person can’t do teshuva for someone else. Part of the teshuva process is for the sinner to decide they will (try to) never do the sin again. AFAIK, it is impossible for one person to decide that somebody else will never do something again. It is also impossible (AFAIK) to do teshuva after a soul departs.

    However, if the child of the niftar does teshuva then that is a big zechus for the parent – even if they have already passed on.

    Mashiach agent is trying to say that he would like to inspire all of the Jews in the world to do teshuva by his acts of tzidkus – but he can’t do it for them.

    You probably would get a better answer from your local orthodox Rabbi.

    Kesiva V’chasima Tova!

    #1192069

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Can someone be crucified on behalf of someone else?

    #1192070

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yes, but it doesn’t help.

    #1192071

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Can someone be crucified on behalf of someone else?

    I volunteer edited to be crucified for all of us.

    #1192072

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s a whole religion on that.

    #1192073

    Joseph
    Participant

    Getting back on topic, don’t we have the concept that great rabbonim suffered or were niftar as a kappara for klal yisroel?

    #1192074

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Rashi in Chuqas. But that’s about a Kappara on the generation to avoid punishments. It is not Teshuva. Although, many learn that the reason it is Mechaper is because it causes Teshuva.

    #1192075

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, lucky thing it was edited and not just deleted!

    #1192076

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To be honest, I “edited” it myself.

    #1192077

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Getting back on topic, don’t we have the concept that great rabbonim suffered or were niftar as a kappara for klal yisroel?

    A kapparah is not teshuva.

    Think of it in terms of debt.

    A kapparah is a note that wipes out a particular debt. Doing teshuva is resolving to not go into debt any further.

    Teshuva is a *personal* process — the sinner confesses his sin, regrets his actions and resolves to no longer do so. Even if you could do the first for another person, there is no way you can do the latter two. They can only be done by the person themselves for themselves. No one else can make a resolution for you. No one else can regret something for you. Only you can do that.

    The Wolf

    #1192078

    Joseph
    Participant

    Alright, so how can a person make a kappara for another person’s sins?

    #1192079

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    By swinging a chicken over his head.

    #1192080

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Alright, so how can a person make a kappara for another person’s sins?

    The same way I can pay off someone’s debt, but I can’t make a resolution that they not go into debt again.

    The Wolf

    #1192081

    Joseph
    Participant

    The same way I can pay off someone’s debt

    How do you pay off/get rid of someone else’s sin(s)?

    #1192082

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How do you pay off/get rid of someone else’s sin(s)?

    By God accepting whatever it is that He accepts for it.

    I don’t see why you’re having so much trouble with this. Teshuva, by it’s very nature, is a personal thing. Having someone do teshuva for you makes about as much sense as having some sleep for you. It can only be done by the person himself. The whole point is to transform and change the person for the better.

    Kapparah doesn’t change you. It just removes a part or all of someone’s sins — but it doesn’t change the person’s behavior or attitudes.

    The Wolf

    #1192083

    !??? ????? ???????? ?????

    we do teshuva on our for fathers sins we also can be punished for their sins if we keep up there sinful ways even though we are separate humans we are still a part of them and basically the punishment is supposed to be a cleanser but how does that help someone who passed on the answer is that when a child is punished for his parents deeds and he knows about it the anguish of the parent is tenfold the pain of the child, as for how pain cleanses I won’t get into

    As for repenting after a soul departs it is possible look in even Shlomo from the Vilna gaon it helps up to a certain extent it doesn’t take away the punishment but it reconciles your love with the ribono shel oilom

    #1192084

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think if someone is on their death bed R’L , someone else can say Vidduy for them.

    #1192085

    joseph

    many times a tzaddik is removed from this world as a kappara for klal yisroels sins. now here’s the part you forgot. the tzaddik gains from being a shliach for Hashem also, the tzaddik becomes a leader in gan eden.

    #1192086

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why can you do zechusim for a deceased person (kaddish, etc.) but not another living person?

    And how do zechusim differ from teshuvah?

    #1192087

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Being a kappara for someone or all klal Yisroel isn’t the same thing as doing teshuva for the person. It’s more like nullifying curses or evil decrees.

    Only the individual can do teshuva for oneself to be closer to Hashem, imho.

    Even doing teshuva for the sins of our fathers or inherited from parents, on so on, are personal teshuva. We may redeem our fathers or parents, etc, but it’s not comparable to teshuva. It’s more like lifting transgressions. While teshuva is elevating them.

    Yes we may elevate parent’s transgressions imparted on our souls, but is that really the same as doing someone else’s teshuva?

    #1192088

    Meno
    Participant

    “I AM FASTING NOW SINCE LAST NIGHT UNTIL 72 TONIGHT & REPEAT IT EVERYDAY”

    Does Mashiach Agent fast every day?

    Because that would explain a few things…

    #1192089

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Just asking whether the topic is can you answer for someone else or can you repent for others.As far as repenting for others ,one can say Vidduy for others and as long as the other party hears it it is considered as if he said it. Also in the times of the Temple a Cohen would offer someone’s offering on the alter and he would get an atonement.

    #1192090

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    While the comment from 3 hours ago was funny, I am wondering if it constitutes loshon hora or onaas devarim and should be deleted. Thanks!

    and btw, he probably meant that he started at chatzos or sometime before alos hashachar.

    #1192091

    Abba_S
    Participant

    While the comment from 3 hours ago was funny, I am wondering if it constitutes and should be deleted. Thanks!

    I am not sure if this is referring to my comment that Teshuvah can mean answer or repentance and I am not sure how this can be considered loshon hora or onaas devarim.

    Unless this is about “I AM FASTING NOW SINCE LAST NIGHT UNTIL 72 TONIGHT & REPEAT IT EVERYDAY” which was posted 4 hours ago. This comment doesn’t make sense since no one can survive if they fast every day and every night. If you are interpreting this to mean he is only fasting from just before dawn to 72 minutes after dusk why is he saying from last night. I am also not sure how healthy this type of diet is and think he should speak to his Rabbi if he is really serious about doing it.

    Can someone be crucified on behalf of someone else? That’s what the Catholic think.

    #1192092

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba, I wasn’t referring to your comment. At the time I posted my comment, your comment was listed as being 1 or 2 hours ago (I’m not sure which).

    It also wasnt about “I am fasting now since last night until 72 tonight and repeat it everyday”.

    If you don’t know what I am referring to, you obviously missed it (either the comment or the point of the comment), so I am not going to point it out to you.

    #1192093

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Joseph why do you assume this other party need to do teshuva be dan lekaf zchus are you so perfect you do not need to worry about yourself>?”

    When I daven Shemona Esrei, by Hashiveinu, I have a list of people that I daven for asking that Hashem help them to do teshuva. I consider it to be part of “v’ahavta l’raiecha kamocha” just like I daven for a refuah shelaima for specific people in refainu.

    I always put my own name first: 1. so it shouldn’t sound gaivadik & 2. because I do care more about myself than other people, and I am more scared of my going to gehhnom, c”v, than I am of others.

    At the same time, it would be really selfish for me to stop with myself and not to daven for others as well.

    Amongst others, I include some of the Israeli politicians. Instead of getting mad at them all the time, I figured it’s more productive to daven for them.

    #1192094

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba – how in the world did that happen? When I responded to your comment, it was there (listed as being 1 or 2 hours behind mine). Then, it disappeared as I was posting my comment. It then came back (possibly with an edition).

    #1275691

    Joseph
    Participant

    Isn’t saying kaddish for a niftar a bit similar to doing teshuva for him? Whatever the kaddish is doing, couldn’t one do/achieve something similar for a living person?

    #1275847

    jakob
    Participant

    joseph

    not exactly. kaddish is more of storing up zchusim “merits” for the neshama to help him at wherever his neshama is holding in the olam haemes

    #1275857

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Isn’t saying kaddish for a niftar a bit similar to doing teshuva for him?

    No.

    First of all, as I explained above, you cannot do teshuva for someone else. It’s a personal process. You can’t do teshuva for someone else no more than you can eat for someone else.

    You can argue that saying kaddish may be a kapparah for the sins of the deceased (see my post above about the difference between teshuva and kapparah). It may also just be something that elevates the neshama. But it’s not teshuva.

    Whatever the kaddish is doing, couldn’t one do/achieve something similar for a living person?

    Perhaps. You may or may not be able to achieve a kapparah for someone else. But not teshuva.

    The Wolf

    #1275858

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nu, could something similar be done for someone who is still with us? Why not?

    #1275978

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you considering saying Kaddish for yourself? I wouldn’t recommend that.

    #1275993

    yytz
    Participant

    Of course, you can daven for someone to do teshuvah; one famous example of such a prayer that was successful is mentioned in the Gemara (Brachos 10a.)

    It is become common nowadays to learn Torah, recite Tehillim, give tzedakah, or do another mitzvah on another’s behalf. (This has a logic behind it, but it seems to be a recent invention without ancient sources, and some question whether it works.) So you could dedicate a certain amount of Tehillim or learning to a person, with the prayer that the merits of your actions prompt Hashem to accept your prayer that the person repent.

    #1276642

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Echta V’Hu Ashuv….

    Interesting concept. Its about 2000 years old now. All you have to do is believe that he did. Pretty convenient.

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