Donating a Gemara to a Catholic College

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  • #592484
    rebdoniel
    Member

    It seems that Oorah/Kars 4 Kids has donated a set of Gemoras to a Catholic university.

    http://www.shu.edu/news/article/301870

    When I read this, I was very disturbed. Firstly, this is a school which has galuchim and galuchim-in-training on the campus. What if they distort the words of the Talmud for dangerous purposes?

    Secondly, a Jewish organization leading non-Jews into learning portions of the Torah that do not pertain to the sheva mitzvos- and yes, I highly doubt there are any yidden on that campus who would benefit from this (the picture shows a galach accepting the Gemaras on behalf of the university).

    Thirdly, this is unethical. Kars 4 Kids and Oorah are supposed to be in the business of spreading Jewish literacy and being mekarev yidden. People donate to them on this basis- not on the basis of their money going to finance possible issurim (lifnei iver, teaching torah to goyim, etc.)

    Is there a posek who permitted this? I highly doubt there was.

    The only thing that may come close in the mekoros is that R’ Yisroel Salanter wanted the Talmud to be in a French translation so that assimilated Jews could learn. However, Seton Hall is not a parve, secular school like the Sorbonne. It is an institution run by the Catholic Archdiocese of Newark, with a Catholic seminary on the campus. They even have tzlomim in a lot of the classrooms.

    #698907
    hello99
    Participant

    I don’t know why you assume a Catholic run University would not have many secular, Jewish students. Georgetown and Notre Dame both do.

    #698908
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    First of all Oorah has well-respected rabbanim with whom they certainly consulted before doing this.

    Secondly, hello99 is right, in fact there are actually quite a few frum Jews who go there.

    #698909
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What about this thread is not lashon hara?

    #698910
    mw13
    Participant

    rebdoniel: Oorah is run by highly respected Rabbonim (primarily R’ Chaim Mintz, who is also co-Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Staten Island together with R’ Reuven Feinstein), so I would imagine they have quite a good reason for doing what they do.

    #698911
    Anonym613
    Participant

    “Presiding over the event was Fr. Lawrence Frizzell, who began by addressing the University community in prayer.”

    Hmmm – I wonder whom the good friar was praying to? Not his 3-part “god,” by any chance?

    “The 73-volume Talmudic library will be cataloged into the university’s library in hopes of having the sacred texts available for students soon.”

    Where is it going to be cataloged? Next to the New Testament?

    I would also like to know who is the Posek who permitted the Talmud to be donated, and his reason for doing so.

    There is no Lashon Hara here. If something is done publicly which is believed to be against the Torah, and C”V a Chillul Hashem,

    then speaking out against it is not Lashon Hara.

    I wonder if Clifford Meth made the donation on his own from Kars4Kids funds, without consulting a Posek. The article mentions, “his early exposure to Jewish-Christian studies.”

    #698912
    tzippi
    Member

    I understand the concerns. BUT, has anyone actually tried contacting Oorah, Rabbi Mintz, etc. before venting here?

    #698913
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Just because you have some frum yidden who go there most likely for things like OT, PT, Counseling, Education, etc., does not mean that there is a huge need for seforim in the library. I actually know many people who have gone there, and it is not as if there is any great Jewish life on campus. The article makes it clear that the intentions of this donation were to have the Gemara accessible to galuchim and members of the galach seminary on campus. Clifford Meth’s words make this very clear. If anyone from Oorah is reading this, I am curious to see what the heter is and what sources they relied on in permitting this. Sure, in Europe, there were efforts to have the Talmud translated and placed in goyishe universities, but this was only for the purpose of refuting anti-semitic attacks against the Talmud, a problem whioh doesn’t exist anymore, and making torah accessible to assimilated students at a University like the Sorbonne, where Reb Yisroel Salanter felt such a need existed. I do not think such a need can legitimately exist in a school that is thoroughly sectarian and affiliated with the RC archdiocese, has a galach seminary, etc.

    #698914
    charliehall
    Participant

    The university could easily order a Talmud by itself; I don’t see what the problem is. It offers a masters degree in “Jewish-Christian Studies”. And on its faculty is Rabbi Dr. Alan Brill, an outstanding scholar who will certainly appreciate the fact that students have access to an Artscroll talmud.

    #698915
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Really, publicly criticizing a kiruv organization with no basis for the criticism, and no permission from a posed that it is muttar to criticize, is very likely lashon hara.

    First, ask a rav if they are doing something wrong.

    If the answer is yes, ask if it is something it is muttar to publicize.

    #698916
    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    There’s no problem with using money intended for Jewish outreach and Kiruv, to buy a Talmud for non-Jewish priests of an idolatrous religion to learn from, that they have no business learning from?

    There’s no problem with a master’s degree in Jewish-Christian studies? What does the holy Torah have to do with an idolatrous religion? Are non-observant Jews C”V supposed to learn the New Testament?

    I emailed Kars4Kids and Oorah this morning, asking about the Talmud donation. Let’s see if I ever get an answer.

    #698917
    rebdoniel
    Member

    What on earth Jewish-Christian Studies is I have no idea. Would we have to tear kriah upon finding out? Brill cannot be considered a serious source of anything having to do with Torah or Judaism. He misquotes Rashi and apparently does not have the ability to understand what is otherwise a very simple makor. (http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2005/07/what-did-rashi-say-re-dr-alan-brill.html). According to YU sources, he was denied tenure there due to loopholes in his “scholarship,” which is very academic, and as a natural result, dismissive and even derisive of what we fundamentally believe as frum yidden.

    Nonetheless, the presence of such a professor does not make something halachically permissible. There are no classes offered at SHU in anything to do with Academic Talmud or anything of the sort. In addition, most of those students are Catholics; this is the audience SHU is catering to. Just because a liberal MO professor teaches at SHU does not justify something which is shrouded in very shady terms, as was noted in Clifford Meth’s priase of the Catholic academic enterprise.

    #698918
    pascha bchochma
    Participant

    There is a LOT more to this situation than meets the eye, or that is being announced. A Catholic university does not need donations of Talmuds, they have them already. Oorah is not at a loss for what to do with extra Gemaras either. It was done to make a point.

    I don’t know if we should be announcing this – I wouldn’t have known had you not posted it. This does not seem to be the type of news that is meant for the general public.

    #698919
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Chaim Mintz is listed in the phone book. He is a very nice person. If you have any issues or concerns with something done by or in the name of Oorah, I’m sure he will be glad to discuss them with you.

    Personally, I think this smacks of “sour grapes” and is likely coming from the same people who have/had issues with Oorahs marketing campaigns.

    #698920
    mw13
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba and apushatayid: Well said.

    #698921
    tabaa
    Member

    I want to make the following points

    1- I know from someone at oorah that every one of the gemoras has the phone number of a chavrusa program.

    2- There are jewish students in seton hall. The catholics generally do not missionize jews in the USA.

    3- I am sure what ever quotes the university needed for the curriculum from the Talmud they already have from sonico.

    4- Rav Yisroel salnater wanted the Talmud in a university so jewish students should see it, and maybe they will start learning it.

    #698922
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Yes.I saw these Artscroll Gemaras myself. They have a sticker advertising for chavrusas in the front of each book. There is no Jewish life on that campus; no chaplain because the Catholics don’t allow that, etc. I don’t believe there is any Talmud taught in any courses- there is no Jewish Studies on campus. There is not ample enough of a Jewish life on campus to warrant this. If Jewish life was such a concern, there would be a Jewish chaplain on campus, kosher food, Shabbos accomodations, no tzelomiom in classrooms, etc. This is not the case there.

    #698923
    rebdoniel
    Member

    An update- I took the advice of some posters here and contacted Oorah. I left a message for R’ Chaim Mintz, and the next day, I got a call from a gentleman who said that he has “no official affiliation with Oorah, is not a rabbi, but was asked to reply to my message.” This is in spite of the fact that I asked to speak with a posek and asked what were the mekoros they relied on in determining to make the decision they made. He then said that Seton Hall is “not a Catholic college, but a general college.” This is not true; it seems someone may have misled these poskim with the metzius. Seton Hall is under the Newark Archdiocese and has a Catholic Seminary on campus. The library the Shas is in has a statue of Yeshu and a picture of the pope on the wall, not too far from the shelf. There are churches on campus, tzelomim, monks in robes, etc. He then said that there are many Jews, including “misguided” ones on the campus. This is not the case; I am involved with the JSU on campus and there are maybe 3 or 4 yidden who show up. That’s it. I know hundreds of people on the campus, and there are maybe 60 Jewish students in total in the undergraduate and graduate programs (most of the yidden in the graduiate programs are either in a special MBA program with R’ Zucker’s yeshiva in Marine Park or are frum girls in PT/OT/Counselng programs.) The university asks students on applications to list their religion, and of those selecting Jewish, there are simply not hoards, as this fellow would want me to believe. Then he said that the Shas would benefit Jewish SHU Law School students, despite the fact that the law school is in downtown Newark and the university itself is in South Orange. All I was told is that poskim encouraged having a Shas there because it could benefit Jewish students. My inquiries about Clifford Meth;s statements, the galach saying a prayer over the Gemoras, the possibility of goyim learning areas not applicable to them, etc. all went unanswered. I left another message for Rav Mintz- we’ll see if I get anywhere this time.

    #698924
    tabaa
    Member

    1- the issur is only to TEACH a gentile.

    2- as far as lifnei iveir there are choshuver shittos (probably the shach and tosfeis chagiga) will probably hold it is only a problem if you put the gemorra into a gentiles hand when he told you he is in a mood to learn now.

    3- rav moshe is matir in the teshuvos to teach a class in a day school even if there is some non-jewish students in the class. there.

    #698925
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Reb Moshe says that it is matir to teach a class if a goy happens to walk in; i.e. you don’t have to interrupt the class if a goy is present or walks in.

    I am more concerned with the fact that the employee in question said in his own words that the Gemara is a “reference work for scholars and beginning students alike who are interested in Biblical history” and who is delighted about “Seton Hall, where the study of the Bible is so clearly emphasized.”

    It is rather scary that someone believes that the study of the Christian Bible and the study of galuchim for the seminary warrants the Gemaras being there, and that he thinks that the Christian academic endeavor is something Jews ought to be proud of. That is what gets me very peturbed about this.

    And just to let everyone know- I attend SHU right now for study, sometimes for many hours on end. I speak to the library staff, and they say that I am the only one who has ever opened them to date. (It makes my suitcase lighter).

    #698926
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Call the Yeshiva of Staten Island and leave a message for R’ Chaim shlita.

    #698927
    mw13
    Participant

    rebdoniel: What’s wrong with giving the Gemora for the 60 jewish students?

    #698928
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Nothing. Just that these students typically don’t stay on campus and use the library.

    My concern is instead the way in which this was done, as mentioned by Anonymous613 above.

    #698929
    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    I never received an answer from Kars4Kids and Oorah.

    I also emailed Jeremiah Sullivan, who wrote the article.

    He emailed back that the gift was provided by the Kars 4 Kids Literacy Initiative; but Clifford Meth did not identify which Rabbinical Adviser of his organization permitted the donation of the Talmud to the University.

    I agree with the concerns of rebdoniel and ANONYM613.

    #698930
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Same here. It seems as if they’re being very cryptic about the information they want to provide.

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