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A new YWN video calls on Jews to move to Norfolk, VA and “make a difference”. What about our own land? Do not move to Norfolk! Move to Eretz Yisrael and make a difference.
No. I don’t want to have to fight with the apikorsim there who think they have a right to put my kids in the army.
I’m not moving to Norfolk VA but I think I can make a lot more of a difference to the community there than to the community in Eretz Yisroel. Plus I would have a lot easier time being mechanech my children in Norfolk VA than in Eretz Yisroel.I did in act live in EY for three years but not when my children were school age.
If I can find a good retirement kollel to join I would like to retire to Eretz Yisreol as well but for now I don’t see considering moving there as being the right thing.
The title “Don’t build more galuyot” is a fundamental mistake. Those in Eretz Yisroel are unfortunately still in Golus too.
DY, here is what I don’t understand. If, chas vesholom, a war broke out requiring a draft, how could you keep your kids out of the US Army?
Compare the likelihood of each.
I thought they don’t draft Yeshiva students in the US.
You can make your own definition of apikorsus, I suppose, but the halachah would call people who think you can only defend am Yisrael if you’re in the army apikorsim.
Yekke, by definition someone in EY is not in galut. This is also apikorsut. You are denying that we have a land at all.
I deny that the Yerushalayim we have now – even according to the Rishonim that Kiddushas Hair Lo Batlah – has any semblance to Yerushalayim HaBenuyah.
LU
There is no draft in the US at this time BUT everyone must register for the draft, Originally it was only men, but the law was just extended to women as well
Avi K: There is and has been a community in Norfolk, VA for years. It has always been small. This ad along with others for Rochester, NY are trying to inform people about affordable communities outside of the NY/NJ area that already has a small community but looking to grow. It is not meant to entice people from abroad to come to the US.
If you think this is inappropriate, please ask someone to film videos about the communities in EY.
DY, you avoided the issue.
LU, in Israel you get a yeshiva deferment without having to prove you’re actually learning and progressing towards Smicha. In a war scenario, that wouldn’t happen in the US.
I absolutely did not. I addressed it straight on.
You didn’t answer the question, because you’d be so obviously wrong if you answered it in your favor.
Yekke, while Avi’s statement is incorrect, I think your statement may be too extreme in the other direction. There is kedusha to Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim today and the Shechina is still here (at least at the Kosel – I don’t remember if it’s just at the Kosel or all of Yerushalayim).
I don’t think it is about building the land of the goyim and turning one’s back on kedusha, loving galus or turning our cities into Jerusalem.
OOT Jews living in small communities among a goyish majority probably feel that they are in galus much more than the average Jew living in a frum enclave in BoroPark or Lakewood. By leaving the established communities, If anything they are showing that that the greater NY area is not the new Jerusalem.
besides, leaving/being forced out of established communities and having to build new ones has been a trend that is typical of our long galus.If it was only so simple for everyone to move to E”Y. Parnassa is a real issue- how many Americans are telecommuting and spending significant chunks of time working away from their families? How many are stuck in low-paying entry level jobs that do not cover their expenses because they cannot break their way into the Israeli employment scene? Chinuch is a real issue- for anyone with older kids (usually set as 10) it is quite hard to get used to a new schools system/culture and most chinuch experts would advise you that it would be a disaster for them to make aliya.
Yes, EY is like no other place, there is kedusha and Torah and it is our Home. But we do not have the Beis Hamikdash, the shechina is in galus and Israeli society and government are far from ideal. EY as it is today is a mere shadow of what it should be. I think there may be a greater danger for a Jew in EY to forget this than one living in Norfolk.
Avi, if you think learning isn’t contributing to society, you’re davka the apikores the Gemara is talking about.
I would be even more concerned about a child who isn’t learning. Here, the chances of being forced into the army are infinitesimal. In Israel, there’s a very strong likelihood.
Winnie, living among many Yidden and less goyim is a plus/benefit to seek rather than living among more goyish culture/less Yiddushe culture. The ruchniyos benefits of Lakewood/Boro Park are greater than that of Norfolk.
Avi, the guy making $200k and complaining is simply a kvetcher who wants more luxuries. Forging luxuries, $200k can very easily get by in life.
Avi K: I am not sure if WTP meant “telecommuting” in working USA hours from EY or actually commuting back and forth from EY to US and back every other week (as I know people who do both).
I know the famous Meshech Chochmah that you quoted and I don’t think the comparison of what was happening in Berlin in those years are the same as today. Nobody is saying that anyplace in the US is replacing Yerushalayim. I don’t know if you are an oleh or not, but reality is that not everyone is going to EY at this time, just as it was in the time of Ezra and Nechemiah.
I also disagree with your comment “in Norfolk there will be constant pressure to accept Yushki. In the Rust Belt there will be constant pressure to accept secular liberalism.” Please provide proof of what you claim. The Rust Belt is different today then it was years ago.
The OU’s gathering next Sunday devotes (I believe) 1/2 their space for Nefesh B’Nefesh to discuss moving to EY and not just the US communities.
I have been down south in the Bible belt and its VERY different than NY
I saw Huge crosses, bible quotes on buildings (I actually saw this in virginia) and everyone was talking about the man alledgedly born on December 25th , sort of the same way frum jews might constantly use Toraisms in everyday sentances.
Those people expect you to go to church every Sunday and were curious why you did not. Never seen anyhing like that before
Avi K of course there are people who struggle and don’t find themselves in the US too. and that there are people who had successful aliyas. Point is that it is a personal decision that each person has to make, based on his own circumstances, and should not be advocated as something everyone has to to do as a general rule, and implied that those who don’t/can’t are wrong.
DY, I agree its not likely, but you avoided answering what you would do if it did. Today, there is little likelihood of someone in Israel who is learning will be drafted.
LU – WinnieThePooh wrote all there is to say.
Yes, EY is like no other place, there is kedusha and Torah and it is our Home. But we do not have the Beis Hamikdash, the shechina is in galus and Israeli society and government are far from ideal. EY as it is today is a mere shadow of what it should be. I think there may be a greater danger for a Jew in EY to forget this than one living in Norfolk.
As to Kedushas Yerushalayim, I think that is a Machlokes Rishonim. There is a Machlokes Ramba”m Ra’avad if Kedusha Rishona Kidsho Leasid Lovo or not. Some Rishonim (Tos) hold that even though Kidsho Leosid Lovo, that is only Kedushas Habayis, but Kedushas Ha’azarah is ืืื.
The Gemara says about the Kosel that ืื ืืื ืฉืืื ื ืืืืชื ืืืขืจืื. It is the accepted position that this is to be taken literally. However, honesty requires me to point out that there are ืจืืฉืื ืื who write that this is not true either, and ืืฉื ืฉืืื ืชื ืืฆืืื ืขืืจื is something we still await. The Radva”z holds this way. I think the Tzitz Eliezer at the beginning of Chelek 10 brings the various positions; it might be Chelek 12. I will bli neder post a link.
AviK, you’re not seriously thinking (are you?) that suggesting someone move OOT to find an affordable house or a welcoming community is creating “new galuyot”.
Maybe according to Webster’s we Jews are in exile if we’re not in E”Y. Galus, as opposed to exile, is the sad state of hester panim we all find ourselves in right now whether we’re in Brooklyn or Beitar or Brussels or out at the Int’l Space Station.
I’m not comfortable discussing the Meshech Chachma because while I find his writings very beautiful I can’t pretend to have any solid grasp or understanding of his deep thoughts. I would like to say that the reform jews in Germany in the late 1800’s & early 1900’s when he lived, advocated replacing Yerushalayim in the siddur with Berlin. I don’t know whether they actually did so (though I do know they made many changes to our Tefillos). It’s clear that they are the ones he was referring to. They were in no shape or form like frum Yidden today in the US, EU, GB who face Mizrach 3 times a day, and beg Ve’le’Yirushalayim Ircha Be’Rachamim tashuv, and say Ani Ma’amin with a bren.
There are challenges today raising children in Chu”l and in E”Y as well.
Ve’ha’ikar she’nechavein libeinu el Avinu She’Ba’Shamayim.Avi K.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but we are in Galus until Mashiach comes. Whether you live in Manchester, England or Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh, we do not have a Beis Hamikdosh or Avoda or Tahara or our own truly independent government run al pi halacha. Therefore we are in galus in our own land.
The good news news for you is, you thought this was geula, or at least atchalta d’geula. Well, it’s gonna get a whole lot better verrry soon.LC, follow the conversation. I said I wouldn’t move to Israel because of the army situation. Is the possibility of a highly unlikely scenario here going to change that?
It’s still much more likely for a yeshiva student in E.Y. to end up in the army, or at least in a difficult situation because of the army (see this past week’s Lifelines in Mishpacha Magazine), but not every boy ends up in yeshiva full time. In the U.S., that won’t end up causing a problem with the draft; in E.Y. it will.
ืืื ืืื ื ืื ืจืื ื
– Avi K
Joseph, as someone who lives in an all frum neighborhood, I know and appreciate those advantages. we can argue the benefits/minuses of living OOT vs in town some other time. that was not the issue here. the point was raised that building up small OOT communities meant that one was entrenching oneself more in the galus and forgetting yerushalayim. i just argued that this particular issue was more likely in all frum established communities.
Interesting talk about leaving countries to avoid the draft.
Mrs. CTL’s zaidy fled the Pale of Settlement under cover of night to avoid conscription into the Tsar’s army for 25 years.
Older brother of CTL gained landed immigrant status in Cnada to avoid the draft during Viet Nam war in the 1960s
CTL paid a $5,000 donation to the hospital wing being built by the doctor on Selective Service Board #9 in New Haven, CT to get his 4F and avoid Viet Nam
CTL serves on the New Englan Regional Selective Service Appeals Board and if a US draft is re-instituted he will do his best to keep those who don’t want to go out.
That said, CTL’s father and uncles all volunteered for the US Armed Serviced during WWII and helped liberate what remained of European Jewry.
CTL’s Zaidy was drafted into the US Army during WWI, but was posted in Atlanta, never went overseas.
CTL has made a decision that he can do more economically for EY by being successful in the USA and funding those in EY who are not living economically viable lives, than moving the whole family and retiring in EY.
We have a home in EY and children and grandchildren have lived there while attending Yeshiva and Seminary in EY. We visit each year, but have no burning desire to live there until after Moshiach arrives and the political infighting ends.
Winnie, you need a course in reading comprehension. I wrote that there are individuals who are exceptions. However, the default position is that a Jew should live in EY.
Winnie wrote that there are maalos to E.Y.
Disagreeing with you, and thinking that for many people, perhaps most, it’s better not to shows no lack of reading comprehension skills.
<<hums to himself, not willing to get Avi K started again on Israel and how it is better than Eretz Yisroel>>
http://hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_14509_40.pdf
ืฆืืฅ ืืืืขืืจ ื”ื ืกื’ ื
Avi K: You wrote: “and there were 600,000 Jews here when the state was established.” Where did you come up with this number? I don’t recall reading about a census taken of World Jewry in 1948.
AviK, my reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. You made a blanket statement in the OP exhorting everyone to move to EY. I explained how it is not so simple, and that those who are not doing so have real reasons. Your rebuttal was that people don’t have it so easy in the US either, implying that financial difficulties should not be a factor in deciding whether or not to make aliya. Did I understand that correctly? Now you made your original statement even stronger.
You must realize that although the rabbanim that you follow may equate living in EY today with not eating on Yom Kippur, there are plenty of rabbanim/gedolim in other communities who do not hold by that, who do not hold that mitzvas yishuv eretz yisroel is k’neged kulam. Why can’t your respect that other people hold differently and are following valid halachic opinions? If a family living in Norfolk, Va is living a Torah life and striving to be true ovdei Hashem, and fulfilling their tafkidim there, then kol hakavod to them.
In case you have not realized this, I live and am raising my family in EY, am living a life-ling dream, wish others could do it too, but would never force my dreams on others for whom it would not work.
I”YH we will experience big things very soon, and we will have EY as it truly should be, with a beis hamikdash, following halacha and an ingathering for all Jews everywhere, and it will be due the many Jews all over the world who are trying their best to live a Torah-true life.
Avi K:
Yekke, by definition someone in EY is not in galut. This is also apikorsut.So let me get this straight – despite the fact that Moshiach has not come, and that the Beis HaMikdosh has not been rebuilt, you believe that the golus is over for those who live in EY?
And you think we’re the apikorsim?
LOL
DY, he wrote that I denied that there are heterim for individual situations.
Where?
Ok, AViK, now you have explained that your problem was with my statement “should not be advocated as something everyone has to to do as a general rule, and implied that those who donโt/canโt are wrong.”
Note that in your OP you did not write “Do not move to Norfolk! Move to Eretz Yisrael and make a difference, unless you have a valid exemption”. The OP certainly did sound like a general statement for everyone to follow. Now you have clarified what you really meant, but I still disagree with the premise that it is a general rule except for the minority with valid reasons. Living in EY is wonderful and can certainly enhance one’s ruchnius, but there are many decisions that go into someone figuring out where it is best for him/her to fill his tafkid, and this applies for all people.Avi, better to live in Southern Lebanon (Eretz Yisroel), too.
Yekke, you had written that you deny that Eretz Yisrael today has any semblance of Yerushalayim habenuyah. That is very different from stating that it is a shadow of what it will be.
Eretz Yisrael today may be a shadow of what it will be, but that doesn’t mean that it has no semblance to Yerushalayim habenuyah. And it is certainly very different from chutz l’aretz.
There is a reason that some of our Gedolim either made sure to never leave EY or only leave under rare circumstances.
Thank you for posting the link. I don’t have time to look at it, but if I understood what you wrote above, it sounds like everyone holds that Yerushalayim has some measure of Kedusha today.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn, wrote a fiery pamphlet opposing settlement in Eretz Yisroel. He refers to the following Midrash on Shir Hashirim 2:8, which gives a reason for the scattering of the Jewish people: G-d has decreed that they must be in exile in all 70 nations of the world. If they all stick together, it will take a very long time for them to go to all 70 nations. By spreading apart, Jews fulfill the decree of exile much more quickly:
โThe voice of my beloved, behold it has comeโ (Shir Hashirim 2:8) โ this refers to the king moshiach. When moshiach comes and says to the Jewish people, โIn this month you will be redeemed,โ they will say to him, โOur teacher, king moshiach, how can we be redeemed? Didnโt the Holy One, blessed is He, say that He is exiling us under the seventy nations?โ And he will give them two answers: โOne of you goes into exile in Barbary and another of you goes into exile in Sumatra (in the Pesikta Rabasi the text reads: Britain), and it will be considered as if you all went to these places.โ The second answer is, โThe government appoints local governors from various nations. If one Cuthean, for instance, becomes a ruler over the Jews, although the central government may not be Cuthean, it is considered as if the Jewish people were in exile under the Cuthean people. If one travels around the world and looks at Jewish communities, he will see that, thank G-d, the Jewish people is alive and well. Although our enemies (who intend to be enemies but are actually benefactors) persecute us, still every city has a cheder, a yeshiva and charity organizations. When a religious Jew comes to a new place and gets settled, he will, with the encouragement of gedolim, help build one of these institutions. As the Midrash says (on Shir Hashirim 2:8), when one Jew lives in Barbary and another lives in Britain, it is considered as if the whole Jewish people went to these places and this fulfills the decree of exile to the seventy nations. We must believe with complete faith that when moshiach comes, he and Hashem will be more pleased with the cheder, the shul and the charity institution founded by the Jews in exile, in Barbary and Britain, than with the factory and workshop founded, G-d forbid, in Jerusalem the holy city. (Tikun Olam, Siman 41)
Of course if someone’s connection to Eretz Yisrael is based on Kedusha, he should understand that someone’s decision regarding whether or not to live here must be based on where he and his family will in fact be able to reach greater heights in Avodas Hashem. That is an individual question and many factors have to be taken into account.
Yekke, you had written that you deny that Eretz Yisrael today has any semblance of Yerushalayim habenuyah. That is very different from stating that it is a shadow of what it will be.4
I think that is just semantics. Regardless, what I meant to say was that the Yerushalayim we have today pales in comparison to Yerushalayim Habenuyah in every way possible.
but if I understood what you wrote above, it sounds like everyone holds that Yerushalayim has some measure of Kedusha today.
Although it’s probably true, I didn’t write that above. Earlier, I brought the Machlokes Rishonim whether Kedushas Eretz Yisroel continues even today. The Rambam holds it does, the Ra’avad holds it doesn’t (“ืกืื ื’ ืืืจืืื”), and Tos’ differentiates between Kiddushas HaMikdash and Kedushas Ha’aretz, that Yerushalayim is bottel but the Mikdash isn’t.
This Kedusha is relevant to Terumos, Maaseros, Achilas Kodshim, Kedushas Har Habayis (practically nogea to the prohibition to ascend the Temple Mount whilst impure), and other things. It is a further discussion whether the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is connected to the Kedushas Haaretz.
I don’t have enough clarity or knowledge to give a confident conclusion, but I’m positive that even those who hold that Kedushas Haaretz is bottel agree that there is somewhat a Kedusha which other lands don’t have.
The link I posted discussed ืืฉืจืืช ืืฉืืื ื by the Kosel, whether this applies during Golus or not.
Avi K,
Thank you for replying. However, You will know that the time of Chanuka was called Galus Yavan. There was a Beis Hamikdosh, and we were in Eretz Yisrael. So, according to your logic, what was galus about that?
Since we were not permitted by the governing Greeks to live al pi haTorah, we were in galus.AviK……………
I’ll happily be alive having made a $5000 donation to a hospital construction project that kept me from harm’s way.This was a case of Pikuach Nefesh and approved by my Rav at the time.
How many running from the Tsar’s draft bribed their way across borders?
How many trying to run from the Nazi’s wish they could have bribed their way out?How many were rescued by paying bribes?
I don’t appreciate your holier than thou attitude. You weren’t to be sent to face communist guns, swamps, jungles agent orange and drugs
AviK……………
I went to a public inner city high school from 7:30 AM to 11:30 AM then Yeshiva from noon to 8 PM (along with about 15 other frum boys).50% of the boys in my high school class were drafted after graduation and sent to Viet Nam. 43/125 came home in body bags.
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