Don’t build more galuyot.

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  • This topic has 47 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Avi K.
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  • #1587345
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rabbi Yosef Berger, one of the rabbis of the Tomb of David, tells Arutz Sheva that it is possible to reach “wonderful levels” on Rosh Hashanah even without flying to Rabbi Nachman’s grave in Uman.

    “Many sages in our generation say that the Tikkun Haklali – the ten psalms that Rabbi Nachman chose to effect special spiritual repair – may be said here at David’s Tomb on Rosh Hashana or earlier, and achieve the same recalibration (tikkun) as at Rabbi Nachman’s grave. Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Morgenstern himself would travel to Rabbi Nachman’s grave for years, and in recent years he’s chosen to visit the tomb of King David on Rosh Hashanah,” says Rabbi Berger.

    He says the place’s spiritual endowment has been known for years, and thousands have visited King David’s tomb since the beginning of the month of Elul. “Every Jew who says those psalms here, even on New Year’s Eve, is like he went to Uman. It achieves much to restore one’s spirit.

    “In the month of Elul, masses come to visit the grave of King David. Everyone knows the central psalm to Elul is By David: G-d is my Light and my Salvation; King David composed it here with Divine inspiration. So thousands come here just to say this psalm or the whole Tikkun Klali.”

    #1587372
    Joseph
    Participant

    Israel is in galus.

    #1587381
    ZionGate
    Participant

    יברכך השם מציון-….. Not from any other galus…

    #1587383
    ZionGate
    Participant

    יברכך השם מציון…….

    “……Israel is in galus…..”
    יברכך השם מציון…… whether it’s in golus or not…
    I’ll take Dovid Hamelech’s word over yours anytime…

    #1587478
    Milhouse
    Participant

    1. Regarding “Kever David”, it’s certainly a holy place, since so many thousands of Jews, over the course of many centuries, have sanctified it with their tehillim and tefillos and tears, but it is *not* David’s kever. It is *possible* that it’s over, or in the immediate vicinity of, an entrance to the tomb of the later kings of Beis Dovid, which was built somewhere in the western suburbs of Yerusholayim after the original royal tomb in Ir Dovid filled up. But it might be nothing but a place of Torah and Tefilah, with no graves at all.

    2. Those who go to Uman for Rosh Hashono do so because Reb Nachman specifically asked his chassidim to do so, and promised that he would go to bat Above for anyone who comes. Therefore they cannot substitute some other place, whether in Eretz Yisroel or anywhere else. They are going to their rebbe, and he is not in some other place. It’s not for Rabbi Berger, whoever he is, to say that the same benefit can be had by going to “Kever Dovid”. Maybe it can and maybe it can’t, but there is no way he could know .

    #1587584
    Joseph
    Participant

    Zion-ist: Why are you getting all bent out of shape at the mere mention of the obvious fact that Israel is in galus?

    #1587651
    akuperma
    Participant

    It is not so much the “Israel is in galus” as that Eretz Yisrael is occupied by some sometimes-nasty, and often annoying occupiers. While in some ways the zionists are better than the Brits or the Turks (and in some ways, not), it is still occupied.

    #1587645
    ZionGate
    Participant

    … and Joe…. Easier for you to bash me instead of Dovid Hamelech, ain’t it??

    #1587717
    Joseph
    Participant

    Whose bashing anyone? I merely made a very simple, obvious and uncontroversial observation about galus.

    #1587789
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    The discussion is if it’s more spiritual or appropriate to daven Rosh Hashona in Yerushalayim or in Jewish European Burning Man. I seriously can’t believe this.

    #1587984
    manitou
    Participant

    You cannot be in golus in Eretz Yisroel when it’s under Jewish sovereignty and it doesn’t matter if it is run by tzadikim or reshoim. Examples of it being run by reshoim is most of malchei Yisroel in bayis rishon and the whole end of the chashmonaim dynasty and then the bais Hurdus.

    #1588173
    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse, their rebbe is not there. He is on their bookshelves.

    Manitou (BTW, your namesake Rav Yehuda Leon Ashkenazi was a Zionist and close to Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook), so how come we only count the galut from the expulsion of the Ten Tribes or maybe just from the final expulsion? However, I agree that an individual can be in spiritual galut. For example, if he thinks that he must kowtow to other nations of if he fails to recognize the significance of Jewish sovereignty.

    #1588187
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    You cannot be in golus in Eretz Yisroel when it’s under Jewish sovereignty and it doesn’t matter if it is run by tzadikim or reshoim. Examples of it being run by reshoim is most of malchei Yisroel in bayis rishon and the whole end of the chashmonaim dynasty and then the bais Hurdus.

    This comes from someone who doesn’t realize that a loss of a beis hamikdash and countless tisha bavs in tzar is galus

    Oy how far we have fallen

    The beis hamildash and hashems shechina isn’t a plus

    #1588188
    manitou
    Participant

    Avi K
    I don’t understand your question.
    Also the term spiritual galus is a relatively new term. The term galus always was a physical one.

    #1588326
    manitou
    Participant

    Coffee Addict
    Who said everything is perfect already? Who doesn’t want the bais hamikdash built?
    All I’m saying is that the term galus in the Torah and neviim all refer to yidden living or not living in Eretz Yisroel under their own sovereignty , like the rambam says that we celebrate Chanukah שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה. The rambam is Clearly including the bais hurdus even though it was a disaster.
    May we merit to see the binyan bais hamikdash in our days.

    #1588356
    Joseph
    Participant

    The reference to Jewish sovereignty does not include rule by reshoyim, who are coincidentally ethnically Jewish, who seized the land from the goyim against Halacha while Hashem had put Klal Yisroel in galus.

    #1588365
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Galus Mitzrayim was in Mitzrayim. Galus Bavel was in Bavel. Galus Edom was and is everywhere. So, where was Galus Yavan? Did we go to Greece? We were in galus right here in Eretz Yisroel. Although galus is also physical, it can be spiritual too without actually leaving E.Y.

    #1588367
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Manitou,

    Is there any time that Bnei Yisroel were in eretz yisrael without a beis hamildash or mishkan in tanach?

    If there was please show me

    Additionally if the shechina doesn’t have its house built how can Hashem not be in galus?

    #1588407
    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    Jewish sovereignty includes even reshoim like most of our rulers in the first bais hamikdash under malchei Yisroel and some from malchei Yehuda as it says clearly in nach. Same goes for the second bais hamikdash under the herodian dynasty.
    As far as today, why is it against Halacha? Because one posek said so? They have to go with your posek??? You do realize that not everyone agrees with the Satmar rav.

    #1588408
    manitou
    Participant

    american_ yerushalmi
    Galus yavan was when we lost our sovereignty to the Seleucid kingdom, see the rambam שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה.

    #1588409
    manitou
    Participant

    Coffee addict
    Of course we want the bais hamikdash to be built and whenever we had sovereignty we made sure to build it. After all it is one of the taryag mitzvohs, I’m sure there was never even a hava Amina that when Klal Yisroel comes back that they wouldn’t be mekayem this fundamental mitzva.

    #1588422
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Elchonon hy’d was Satmar? Rav Aharon zt’l was Satmar?

    #1588419
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Of course we want the bais hamikdash to be built and whenever we had sovereignty we made sure to build it. After all it is one of the taryag mitzvohs, I’m sure there was never even a hava Amina that when Klal Yisroel comes back that they wouldn’t be mekayem this fundamental mitzva.

    However now we have sovereignty but we decide not to build it?

    Meaning we’re still in galus (even if it’s a galus caused by our own people)

    #1588445
    manitou
    Participant

    Coffee Addict
    However now we have sovereignty but we decide not to build it?

    Meaning we’re still in galus (even if it’s a galus caused by our own people)
    How does that add up? not being mekayem a mitzvah does not mean galus, just like in bayis rishon and sheini ,we were expelled for not keeping certain mitzvohs , not that the not keeping those mitzvohs meant we were in galus then during bayis rishon and sheini.

    #1588444
    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    Reb Aharon never said that it’s against halacha to have a medinah today.
    The point is that you cannot expect other people to only accept your poskim’s psak.

    #1588522
    Joseph
    Participant

    Manitou: Rav Aharon certainly did. In fact, Rav Aharon and Rav Elchonon voted against it in the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah in Marienbed in 1937 and said it was against Halacha.

    #1588753
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Manitou,

    You’re missing the point if you think the problem of no beis hamikdash is not performing a mitzvah

    #1588590
    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    It is not clear why Reb Aharon voted against the partition plan of the Peel Commission, there are some that say that he said that we cannot agree to any plan that gives away part of eretz yisroel. In any case the majority voted in favor so you can nitpick about what Reb Aharon held but it was in the minority. Therefore you cannot say that because they dont agree to your psak so they are reshoim.

    #1588455
    Milhouse
    Participant

    AviK, their Rebbe is not on the bookshelves, he is in Uman, just as the Ovos and Imohos are in Chevron, and Rochel is in Beis Lechem. A person’s nefesh remains with the body and is aware when people visit and talk to him.

    The Zohar says that when the world needs rain we take a sefer torah to the cemetery to alert the people who lie there, and then they will go to Chevron to alert those who lie there, and together they will go up to the higher worlds and alert their neshomos Above, who will intercede with Hashem and ask for rain.

    manitou, Golus Yovon was not about loss of sovereignty, because we never had sovereignty before it. The second beis hamikdosh was built under Persian sovereignty, which lasted until Alexander took it from them, and then we were under Macedonian and Seleucid sovereignty long *before* Antiochus the 4th and his gezeros. Golus Yovon only starts then.

    So it is not about sovereignty but about a beis hamidkosh. Golus Yovon was the period when the BHMK was turned into a temple of avoda zara, and ended when it was liberated and returned to regular service, even though the war continued for several more years.

    #1588781
    manitou
    Participant

    Milhouse
    The rambam says שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה

    #1588795
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Aharon said the reason is because it is against Halacha. As did the other Gedolei Yisroel who voted against it, such as Rav Chaim Ozer, the Brisker Rav, Rav Elchonon and the Chazon Ish. Just because the second tier rabbis “outvote” the Gedolei Yisroel is irrelevant even though the organization unfortunately is run by quantitative majority.

    But all that’s because the point, anyways. According to Rav Aharon, Rav Chaim Ozer, the Brisker Rav, Rav Elchonon and the Chazon Ish, what I wrote earlier in this thread is correct.

    #1588821
    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    It’s just not true.
    The only reason why it would be assur to be mekayem the mitzvah of והורשתם is if you hold of the ג׳ שבועות as a halachic problem which obviously no one other than the Satmar rav and maybe reb Elchonon held. To everyone else it was all a matter of pragmatism as to what makes the most sense.

    #1588839
    Joseph
    Participant

    That is certainly not the only reason. But regarding the ג׳ שבועות, everyone holds from them except the Zionists. This isn’t a Satmar position. This issue and point has already been discussed extensively on this forum. I’ve demonstrated this point on multiple old threads and won’t repeat the same. Search this forum for the three oaths and the Maharal.

    #1588855
    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    First of all it’s simply not true that everyone holds of the ג שבועות but that’s beside the point. As I said before you cannot expect to have everyone hold like your posek and if they don’t they are a rasha…

    #1588907
    Avi K
    Participant

    Manitou, there is a machloket in the Gemara whether the dead know what goes on here (Berachot 18a). See Sota 34b Tosafot d”h Avot that even the Avot do not know. See also Rambam Hilchot Taanit 4:17 that we daven in cemeteries in order to compare ourselves to dead people.

    Joseph, they only opposed establishing the state because they thought that it would cause the Arabs to destroy everything. The British and Americans also thought so. However, BG thought differently. He was right just as he was right that Israel should take in any Jew who wants to come whereas his advisors did not think that it was possible. The three oaths are a non-starter as I have explained here several times.

    #1588925
    Avi K
    Participant

    Here they are for those who forgot:

    1. The pasukim cited refer th the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
    2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek).
    3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
    4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Inro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
    5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed.
    6. According to Rav Soloveichik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashemn has called.
    7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmielnitzky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).

    #1588937
    manitou
    Participant

    Avi K
    While all the points you brought regarding the ג שבועות are true that most don’t hold its valid now, the main point should be that even for the ones like Joseph that do hold of it that doesn’t give them the right to call all those who disagree a rasha. Its like an ashkenazi calling a Sephardi a rasha for not paskening like the rama.

    #1589000
    Avi K
    Participant

    Agreed, Manitou.

    #1589079
    Milhouse
    Participant

    manitou, ” The rambam says שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה”

    Yes, what about it? How does this support your claim? Yes, after Chanukah there was a brief period of Jewish sovereignty, but so what? That isn’t and can’t be why Golus Yovon ended then, because there was no Jewish sovereignty before Golus Yovon, and yet the Golus only started when Antiochus 4 captured the Beis Hamidosh.

    #1589085
    Milhouse
    Participant

    AviK there is NO machlokes that the dead know what is happening in the cemetery. The only machlokes is whether they know what is happening elsewhere.

    Joseph, the reason the kneisia gedola opposed the partition plan was absolutely NOT that it’s assur to establish a state. The reason was that we have no right to agree to give away any part of the Land, even if in return we receive the rest of it. Better to have nothing and remain the rightful owners of everything than to accept that some parts are not ours. Moshiach will soon come and restore us to the whole land anyway, so the gain from a compromise is only short term. Only someone who doesn’t believe in Moshiach will say better to have something than nothing.

    #1589141
    manitou
    Participant

    Milhouse
    I don’t understand what you’re saying, the rambam says that we celebrate Chanukah that we regained our sovereignty. We were under Greek rule and the chashmonaim took over. Galus yavan was the period before, when the Greek ruled over us in Eretz Yisrael. My point was then and now that it is not considered by the neviim and Chazal to be in golus when we are living in Eretz Yisroel under Jewish sovereignty even if the rulers are as bad as achav or hurdus.
    As a side note it is absurd to say that today’s democratically elected leaders in Eretz Yisrael are reshoim when they are overseeing the funding of so much Torah.

    #1589155
    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse,
    1. The discussion in Berachot is about what goes on in the cemetery.
    2. Regarding your response to Joseph, it is incredible to think that the gedolim would prefer nothing to part of EY. That is, in fact, what we received during the time of the Bayit Sheini.

    #1589296
    Milhouse
    Participant

    manitou, “Galus yavan was the period before, when the Greek ruled over us in Eretz Yisrael.”

    That is not true. The vast majority of the time when the Greeks ruled over us in EY was not golus. Between the first churban and Chanukah there was never a time when we had sovereignty, and yet we were not in golus. Therefore sovereignty or the lack thereof <i>can’t</i> define golus.

    AviK, in Bayit Sheni we received <i>none</i> of the Land, but nor did we agree to give any of it up. And yes, the KG said it was better to have nothing but keep our claim on everything, than to get something at the price of giving up the rest. Soon Moshiach will come and we’ll get the whole thing, but how can he do that if we’ve sold it?

    The whole rationale of the zionists who accepted the partition plan was that Moshiach is never coming, so our claim on the whole Land is worthless and meaningless, and by giving it up in return for some of the Land we’d be exchanging nothing for something.

    #1589300
    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse,
    1. Up until the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes ym”s we had internal autonomy. That is at least partial independence. On the other hand, when David fled to Gat he said that he was expelled from Hashem’s inheritance (Shmuel Alef 26:19).
    2. They failed to conquer the rest of EY. Reish Lakish had harsh things to say about that (Yoma 9b).
    3. My hunch is that BG knew that the Arabs would reject the plan and therefore the Jews would get more and come out smelling like roses. This has been Israeli strategy all along. History proved that BG was right.

    #1590263
    Milhouse
    Participant

    AviK, in Europe we also had internal autonomy. The kehilla managed its own affairs and so long as the taxes were paid the government did not interfere. That is not sovereignty.

    Re Resh Lokish, I had a quick look at the amud and couldn’t find anything like your claim. I see RL complaining that the Jews of Bovel didn’t come up with Ezra, but I don’t see anything about conquering any territory, let alone more of it. Because of course Ezra & Co didn’t conquer anything at all. They merely moved to EY to live there under foreign rule, just like yidden did under the Ottomans.

    #1590453
    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse,
    1. Sovereignty in Europe was very limited (e.g. criminal punishments could not be imposed) and not national except for the Council of the Four Lands. There were also severe restrictions regarding in what occupations Jews could engage and prohibitions on land ownership.
    2. If all of the Jews had come up they would have conquered all of EY.

    #1590555
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, your last comment doesn’t even challenge Milhouse’s underlying point.

    #1590725
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, it challenges his contention that we did not agree to give up land during the period of the Bayit Sheni. By not going up they effectively gave up land.

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