Don’t build more galuyot.

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  • #1262264
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Tiferes Yerushalayim (1895-1986)

    Regarding your question if there is a mitzvah nowadays to live in Eretz Yisroel, as the Ramban says, or if there is no mitzvah nowadays, as Rabbeinu Chaim says, quoted in Tosafos on Kesubos 110b: Some poskim hold it is a mitzvah. But it is obvious that this is not an obligatory mitzvah in our time, for if so, it would result in a prohibition to live in Chutz Laaretz because doing so would be violating a positive commandment, like wearing a four-cornered garment without tzitzis, which is forbidden because it transgresses the positive commandment of tzitzis. But we only find a prohibition regarding one who lives in Eretz Yisroel, who is forbidden to leave with the intention of dwelling permanently in Chutz Laaretz – see Rambam Hilchos Melachim 5:9. And this prohibition is certainly not a negative commandment. Had it applied to the Jews of Chutz Laaretz, the Rambam would have written, ‘It is forbidden to live in Chutz Laaretz unless there is a strong famine in Eretz Yisroel.’ So we see that it is a Rabbinic prohibition, only for those who dwell in Eretz Yisroel. But as far as the Biblical positive commandment, it is not obligatory, only that if one lives there he fulfills the mitzvah. And in my Chiddushim I have written at great length about the words of Rabbeinu Chaim in Tosafos in Kesubos. Now, since it is not an obligatory mitzvah, you must definitely take into consideration the concern of Rabbeinu Chaim in Tosafos as to whether you will be able to keep the special mitzvos of Eretz Yisroel.” (Igros Moshe, Even Hoezer 1:102)

    #1262278
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Avik, your statement about the heter only holds if you follow the opinion that yishuv eretz yisroel is an obligatory mitzva. You obviously do, but not everyone agrees with you, see Kj above.

    #1262287
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    From various comments here, it seems clear that there are various definitions of the term galus
    1. literal, exiled from the Homeland, living anywhere but E”Y. This is not dependent on whether there is a beis hamikdash or not- for example, 10 hashevatim went into galus way before the churban bayis I.
    2. Used as a general term to describe the overall tragedy that followed the destruction of the beis hamikdash, being persecuted by goyim, spiritual failures, hester panim, etc. This is not dependent on geographical location.
    3. As Geordie used it, to refer to subjugation by a specific nation, which meant loss of political independence and loss of freedom to practice Torah. Again, this is independent of the Beis Hamikdash. According to chazal, we are in galus roma (with a contribution from Yishmael) now until Mashiach comes.
    So while Jews living in E”Y are not in galus in the literal sense of definition 1, they are by definitions 2 and 3.

    #1262594
    Avi K
    Participant

    LU, there si no Torah like the Torah of Eretz Yisrael. In fact, Chazal say that if one lives in Shmutz laAretz it is if he has no Gd and it is as if he commits idolatry (Ketubot 110b). Ramban says (Vayikra 18:25) that we only do mitzvot there in order not to forget themThe Gra says (Likutim on Sefer HaTzeniuta) that it is a graveyard for Jews. It follows that a Jew there is considered dead.

    Geordie, that was because we did not have national independence. See Rambam at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka.

    CTL, are you comparing the us to Czarist Russia? If so you should leave ASAP. In any case, if you had joined the ROTC the army would have paid for your BA and law degree and then you would have become an officer with a cushy job in the Pentagon. According to your pikuach nefesh rationale it would bepermitted for a murderer to bribe a judge to avoid the death penalty. It would also have been permitted to bribe draft officials in WW2.

    Winnie, do you (if you are a man) wear tzitziot?

    ืฉื•”ืช ืฆื™ืฅ ืืœื™ืขื–ืจ ื—ืœืง ื– ืกื™ืžืŸ ืžื— – ืงื•ื ’ ืื•ืจื—ื•ืช ื”ืžืฉืคื˜ื™ื ืคืจืง ื™ื‘

    ื—ื•ื‘ืช ื”ื™ืขื ื•ืช ืœืงื•ืœ ื”ืงื•ืจื ืœืขืœื™ื™ื” ื•ืœื”ืชื™ื™ืฉื‘ื•ืช ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ืขื“ ืžืื“ ื”ื™ื ื”ืชื‘ื™ืขื” ืžืฉืžื™ื ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ืžื™ื•ื—ื“ ื›ืฉื‘ืื” ื”ืชืขืฆืœื•ืช ื›ืœืœื™ืช ื‘ืื™ื–ื• ืžื“ื™ื ื” ืžืŸ ื”ืžื“ื™ื ื•ืช ืฉื ืžืฆืื™ื ืฉื ื ื“ื—ื™ – ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœื”ื™ืขื ื•ืช ืœืงื•ืœ ื”ืงื•ืจื ืœืขืœื™ื™ื” ื•ืœื”ืชืื—ื–ื•ืช ื‘ืฉืขืช ืคืงื™ื“ื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ื›ื–ืืช ืฉืœ ืชืงื•ืžืช ื”ืžื“ื™ื ื” ื•ืขื™ืฆื•ื‘ื”, ืฉืคืœืื™ ืคืœืื•ืช ื ืขืฉื” ืœื” ื‘ืขื‘ืจ ื•ื ืขืฉื™ื ืœื” ื‘ื”ื•ื•ื” ืขืœ ื›ืœ ืฆืขื“ ื•ืฉืขืœ. ื ืœืžื“ ื–ืืช, ืžื”ืืžื•ืจ ื‘ืžืก’ ื™ื•ืžื ื˜’, ื‘’: ืจื™ืฉ ืœืงื™ืฉ ื”ื•ื™ ืกื—ื™ ื‘ื™ืจื“ื ื ืืชื ืจื‘ื” ื‘ืจ ื‘ืจ ื—ื ื ื™ื”ื‘ ืœื™ื” ื™ื“ื, ื”ืœ ืืœื”ื ืกื ื™ื ื ืœื›ื• ื“ื›ืชื™ื‘ ืื ื—ื•ืžื” ื”ื™ื ื ื‘ื ื” ืขืœื™ื” ื˜ื™ืจืช ื›ืกืฃ ื•ืื ื“ืœืช ื”ื™ื ื ืฆื•ืจ ืขืœื™ื” ืœื•ื— ืืจื–, ืื ืขืฉื™ืชื ืขืฆืžื›ื ื›ื—ื•ืžื” ื•ืขืœื™ืชื ื›ื•ืœื›ื ื‘ื™ืžื™ ืขื–ืจื ื ืžืฉืœืชื ื›ื›ืกืฃ ืฉืื™ืŸ ืจืงื‘ ืฉื•ืœื˜ ื‘ื•, ืขื›ืฉื™ื• ืฉืขืœื™ืชื ื›ื“ืœืชื•ืช ื ืžืฉืœืชื ื›ืืจื– ืฉื”ืจืงื‘ ืฉื•ืœื˜ ื‘ื•. ื•ืขื™ื™ืŸ ื‘ืจืฉ”ื™, ืฉืžืคืจืฉ ืฉืขืœ ื™ื“ื™ ื–ื” ืฉืœื ืขืœื• ื‘ื ื™ ื‘ื‘ืœ ื‘ื™ืžื™ ืขื–ืจื ืžื ืขื• ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ืžืœื‘ื•ื ืžืœืฉื•ื‘ ืœืฉืจื•ืช ื‘ื‘ื™ืช ืฉื ื™ ื•ืจืง ืงืฆืช ื—ื–ื•ืŸ ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ื”ื™ื” ื•ื›ืœื• ืœื ื”ื™ื”. ื•ื›ืŸ ื‘ืžื”ืจืฉ”ื ื‘ื—”ื ืžืกื‘ื™ืจ, ืฉืื™ืœื• ืขืœื• ื›ื•ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื ืขืฉื” ื ืก ืฉื”ื™ื• ื ืฉืžืจื™ื ื‘ืœื ื—ื•ืžื” ื•ื”ื™ืชื” ื”ื ื‘ื•ืื” ื ืฉืืจืช ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ื ื•ืขื›ืฉื™ื• ืฉืœื ืขืœื• ื›ื•ืœื ื•ืฆืจื™ื›ื™ื ื—ื•ืžื” ืœื”ืฉืžืจ ืžืคื ื™ ืื•ื™ื‘ื™ื ื•ื”ืžื™ืขื•ื˜ ืฉืขืœื• ืขืฉื• ืขืฆืžื ื›ื“ืœืชื•ืช ื“ื”ื™ื™ื ื• ืœืฉืžื•ืจ ืจืง ืคืชื—ื™ ื”ืขื™ืจ, ื ืžืฉืœื• ื›ืืจื– ื•ื›ื•’, ืฉื”ื ื‘ื•ืื” ื ืกืชืœืงื” ืžื”ื.

    ืื ื• ืจื•ืื™ื ื•ืœืžื“ื™ื ืžื–ื” ื’ื•ื“ืœ ื”ื”ืจืก ื”ืจื•ื—ื ื™ ืฉื’ืจื ืื™ – ื”ื™ืขื ื•ืชื ืฉืœ ื›ื•ืœื ื›ืื—ื“ ืœืขืœื•ืช ื›ื—ื•ืžื” ืœืงื•ืœ ื”ืงื•ืจื ืฉืœ ืžื™ ื‘ื›ื ืžื›ืœ ืขืžื• ื”’ ืืœืงื™ื• ืขืžื• ื•ื™ืขืœ, ืฉื‘ื ื‘ืฉืขืช ื”ืคืงื™ื“ื”, ืขื“ ื›ื“ื™ ื’ืจื™ืžืช ื”ืกืชืœืงื•ืช ื”ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ื•ื”ืกืจืช ื”ื”ืฉื’ื—ื” ื”ืžื™ื•ื—ื“ืช ืœื”ืžืฉื›ืช ื”ืคืขืœืชื ืฉืœ ื ื™ืกื™ ืฉืžื™ื ืžื™ื•ื—ื“ื™ื ืขืœ ื”ืขื ื”ืžื—ื“ืฉ ื ืขื•ืจื™ื• ืœืงื™ื•ื ืขืฆืžื•ืชื• ื‘ืืจืฅ ืงื“ืฉื•, ืฉื›ื ืจืื” ืœื ืขื‘ื“ื™ ืžืฉืžื™ื ื ืกื™ื ื›ืืœื” ืืœื ืืœื ื‘ืฉื•ื‘ ื›ื•ืœื [ื›ืฉื ืฉืžืฆื™ื ื• ื’ื ื›ืžื” ื•ื›ืžื” ืžืฆื•ื•ืช ื”ืชืœื•ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืืจืฅ ืฉืงืฉื•ืจื•ืช ื“ื•ืงื ืขื ื‘ื™ืืช ื›ื•ืœื],

    There are also a number of other poskim, such as Rav Kook and Rav Ovadia, who hold that it is a Torah obligation to live in EY in our time. According to Rav Shaul Yisraeli Rambam really agrees buthe does not include it as he does not include mitzvot that include other mitzvot (e.g. the mitzvot hateluyot ba’Aretz). However, because of space limitations I will not post their words.

    #1262608
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    AviK……………….
    WRONG AGAIN.
    When I was subject to the draft, the college student deferral had already ended and I’d have been taken immediately after high school ended in June. NO time to join ROTC in college.

    Furthermore, I knew many former ROTC members who went to Viet Nam as officers, a number were killed there, ROTC was no guaranty of a cushy job at the Pentagon.

    I don’t have a BA degree…so the government would not have paid for it! I have B.Sc., M.B.A. and J.D. degrees.

    I did not compare 2017 USA and Tsarist Russia (which ceased to exist 100 years ago. I compared a mandatory draft in 1960/70s USA and the Tsar’s draft. Other posters mentioned the Israeli Draft.

    Your comparison to a murderer bribing a judge is simply twisted logic and no such words came out of my mouth or fingers.
    I specifically posted that the donation to the Doctor’s hospital construction project was approved my my Rav in my circumstances at a specific time and place. I was not alive in WWII and could not extrapolate based on this. My father and uncle volunteered to serve in the US Army in WWII, they did nit wait to be drafted. The USA was attacked before declaring War in 1941 and our response was self defense. Viet Nam never attacked the USA, we were interlopers.

    #1262887
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    AviK, I am glad you keep on bringing sources- like I said there are Rabbanim on both sides of the issue, and I know that you are following your Rav’s psak. That does not contradict that there are rabbanim who hold otherwise and that people are allowed to follow these rabbanim too.
    It’s funny, you remind me of a seminary teacher who was a fervent Zionist and used to lecture us on the very same points you mention. It didn’t work though. Out of that whole class, only a small handful actually live in E”Y now and it had little do with his attempts at brainwashing.

    No I do not wear tzitis, but I do live in E”Y. So does Lilmod. We don’t deny that living in EY is special in a way that Chul cannot be.

    The more halachically knowledgeable posters out there can explain why tzitzis is unique among mitzvos that men go out of their way to make sure they do the mitzva, even though technically it only applies in a specific situation.

    #1264657
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “LU, there si no Torah like the Torah of Eretz Yisrael. In fact, Chazal say that if one lives in Shmutz laAretz it is if he has no Gd and it is as if he commits idolatry (Ketubot 110b). Ramban says (Vayikra 18:25) that we only do mitzvot there in order not to forget themThe Gra says (Likutim on Sefer HaTzeniuta) that it is a graveyard for Jews. It follows that a Jew there is considered dead.”

    I am well aware of all that and I am well aware that the ideal is to live in Eretz Yisrael (which is why I’m here, Boruch Hashem). However, it does not follow that every Jew is obligated to or even should live in Eretz Yisrael.

    It is also an ideal to learn Torah full-time, but there are times when it would be a big aveira for someone to be learning.
    All Mitzvos can be made into “avoda zara”. All Mitzvos can be done in the wrong way or in the wrong time. We are not supposed to worship anything but Hashem and that includes not taking any Mitzvah out of the context of Avodas Hashem.

    There is a famous story about a meeting of Rabbanim to save the Yidden (maybe during the Holocaust?). One man got up and said, “We must daven Mincha or we will miss shkiya.” One of the Gedolim who was there said, “We are in the middle of saving lives. It is assur to daven Mincha now, and anyone who joins that man in davening Mincha is a murderer.

    That is the classic example of using a Mitzvah as avoda zara. The Mitzvos don’t have inherent value in themselves but only as tools to serve Hashem and they are only tools to serve Hashem when they are kept the way Hashem wants. Every Mitzvah has parameters – times and ways that it is supposed to be done and times and ways that it is forbideen.

    Your tzitzis example is a great example. If you were to ask me if it’s a Mitzvah to wear tzitzis, I would say yes. But if you were to ask me if it would be a Mitzvah for me to wear Tzitzis, I would have to say no. In fact it is proabably assur for more than half of Am Yisrael to wear Tzitzis. Less than half of the Frum members of Am Yisrael wear Tzitzis (none of the women as well as boys under 3). And even men and boys over 3 are not obligated to wear Tzitzis at certain times of day (namely at night).

    #1264949
    mw13
    Participant

    LU, that was excellent. I couldn’t agree more.

    #1264958
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thanks mw13! When I saw Winnie the Pooh’s post in response to Avi, I had to comment on the tzitzis comparison. It was too good of a “chap” to pass up.

    #1265044
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Perhaps a better analogy would be wearing techeilis. If you follow the psak of the Radziner or others who claimed they figured out what the chilazon is, then you are mechuyav to wear techeiles. If you follow rov Poskim who think that we still don’t know what the chilazon is, then you wear white strings, without having to ask for a specific heter.

    #1265047
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    A question for AviK . Say history turned out differently, or we had a time machine and you went back in time. Would you be living in E”Y if there was no midinat yisroel, say under the Mandate or Ottoman rule (assuming you had permission to enter)? Or would you say, it is too difficult/dangerous/economically unviable/ etc? The mitzva would still apply though, so you would have to get a heter, right?

    #1265117
    mw13
    Participant

    Another question for Avi K:

    Let’s imagine for a minute that Herzl had gotten his way and established a “Jewish State” in Uganda. Would you move to “the Jewish State of Uganda”, or to the Ottoman-controlled Palestine?

    #1265130
    Avi K
    Participant

    LU,
    I wrote that some Jews are exempt from living in EY just as some are exempt from fasting on Yom Kippur. Why do you keep harping on this?
    As for tzitziot, my point was that it is a mitzva kiumit. There is no obligation to wear a four-cornered garment.

    Winnie,
    Actually there are several sheetot regarding techelet. However, to my knowledge no one says that an incorrect techelet makes one over on the mitzva. Those who are against say that it looks like haughtiness as almost no gedolei Torah wear it.
    As for your hypothetical question, you are correct that I would still need a heter not to make aliya (Uganda doesn’t start. It would be no different than living in Monsey). However, the conditions under Erdogan would probably make the heter much easier. As for a Mandatory government, who knows how it would look? Your assumption of permission to enter is also a big assumption. I cannot see how either country would allow Jewish emigration let alone give an absolute right to acquire citizenship.

    #1265135

    There is currently no draft or registration for a draft for women in this country. Below is off the sss.gov website.

    Women and the Draft
    
    Women Aren't Required to Register
    
    Here's why:
    
    THE LAW
    
    Selective Service law as it's written now refers specifically to 
    "male persons" in stating who must register and who would be drafted. 
    For women to be required to register with Selective Service, 
    Congress would have to amend the law.
    
    THE SUPREME COURT
    
    The constitutionality of excluding women was tested in the courts. 
    A Supreme Court decision in 1981, Rostker v. Goldberg, held that 
    registering only men did not violate the due process clause of the 
    Constitution.
    
    DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
    
    Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced on December 3, 2015, the Department 
    of Defense will lift all gender-based restrictions on military service 
    starting January. In response, Armed Services Committee Chairmen, 
    Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-TX) and Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), issued a joint 
    statement on December 3, 2015, saying, โ€œCongress has a 30-day period to 
    review the implications of todayโ€™s decision. โ€ฆ and receiving the
     Departmentโ€™s views on any changes to the Selective Service Act that may 
    be required as a result of this decision.โ€
    
    As of January 2016, there has been NO decision to require females to 
    register with Selective Service, or be subject to a future military draft. 
    Selective Service continues to register only men, ages 18 through 25.
    
    Following a unanimous recommendation by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 
    Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta announced, on January 24, 2013, the end 
    of the direct ground combat exclusion rule for female service members. The 
    service branches continue to move forward with a plan to eliminate all 
    unnecessary gender-based barriers to service. Ongoing project is still underway.
    
    The Selective Service System, if given the mission and modest additional 
    resources, is capable of registering and drafting women with its existing 
    infrastructure.
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