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Why do we find that the same people who are very makpid on being DAN LEKAF ZECHUS, and judge all the non frum people in favour with the old card called tinuk shenishba, they don’t hesitate for a second before bashing anyone frummer then them….. no being dan lekaf zechus there….
Because elites are always resented by society.
I’m not talking about the humble folk but since we’ve become very materialistic and that’s the sum total of who we are….this is perhaps why we have become very resented.
“Elitists are viewed negatively because their behavior marginalizes others, undermines the achievements of peers, and creates exclusive social circles that reinforce hierarchical divides. This attitude is often described as “childlike arrogance,” where individuals use status symbols or intellectual superiority to establish dominance and make others feel inferior, rather than fostering collaboration or inclusivity.
The specific negative character traits associated with elitism include:
Arrogance and Superiority: A belief that one is smarter, richer, or more talented than others, leading to a dismissive attitude toward those who do not meet their stringent standards of “excellence.”
Lack of Empathy: A disregard for the struggles of others, often trivializing challenges by assuming that if the elitist could overcome obstacles, everyone else should be able to as well.
Exclusivity and Gatekeeping: The creation of closed groups that exclude those not deemed worthy, denying them access to professional networks, social opportunities, or basic respect”People understand “frummer” as more perfect since they’re “closer to Hashem” so it’s harder to be Dan lkaf zchus
To IMHO
I absolutely love this topic so let me offer my two cents. The Gemara says that the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because the people kept the Torah. The Gemara then asked the obvious question, “Was that a reason for the Temple to be destroyed?” It answered that the people didn’t go “Lifnim Mishuras Hadin” beyond the letter of the law. So, what does that mean? Let’s say you walk into shul and find someone in your seat. According to Halacha you can ask that person to move, but menschlichkeit speaks otherwise. You must assess if the person will be upset, and or insulted before acting on the Halacha. Yesterday, I was in a thread on VIN which discusses the Mitzvah of rebuking another Jew. Some people wrote that it’s a Biblical obligation, but I noted that it should only be done if one is relatively certain that the subject will listen to him. Let’s look at Tinok Shenishba. About two years ago I debated this point with a Lubavitcher on VIN. He blanketly said that according to the Chazon Ish every nonobservant Jew today is a Tinok Shenishba. I said that’s ridiculous because only Hashem can decide who falls into that category. He wouldn’t budge so I cited Alan Dershowitz who publicly announced that when he was 29, he walked away from Yiddishkeit because he didn’t want his children’s potential to be stunted by its rules. The guy wasn’t interested. People latch on to some statement by a known Rabbi and apply it as one size fits all. As for Dan Lkaf Zchus this only applies if you don’t know the religious status of the person in question. If, on the other hand, you know that the person is observant than if you see him step into a car on Shabbos you must assume that it’s to perform a Mitzvah. And if you know he isn’t frum then you can assume the worst. It’s when you don’t know about the person that you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yasher Koach for starting this thread.
You were talking about frummer, my bad I didn’t read that did I?
Frum people tend to be a little extremist in their view but it’s more self deprecating and harsh on themslevs then our worldly cruel. People can see that as not something they agree with or lauph at it because it’s taken too far, or too extreme, but I will say this, to contradict my above posts, that frommer people tend to be more down to earth, kind and generous, and not pulled down by the likes of materialism which makes them overall very good people.
I don’t necessarily think their views are so healthy overall as it can be taken a bit far, stretching meaning to be more harsh on themselves then neccisary but the best people are generally frummerPeople have zero clue what tinok shenishba means. Most poskim will already say the ones in Israel they already know there’s a God, they know that there’s a Torah, and they know that in it speaks about Shabbos observance. That’s already enough to disqualify someone from that category. Maybe someone who grew up in Ukraine and never found his Jewish roots you could say that person is definitely one. But many of the secular in Israel are already from religious homes to begin with, and the ones that aren’t still have plenty of knowledge of what it says in the Torah. Maybe these excuses are to get rid of the conscience. But upstairs they don’t buy these excuses
To rebEmes
You’re absolutely correct. Many groups, particularly Chabad, like to use the Tinok Shenishba card to excuse every sinner. Manis the Kofer Friedman stated that no Jew today can be punished no matter what sin he does because of the long, bitter Golus. Let me share a story. In 1991 I called up a very good secular friend and fellow dentist and asked him to consider becoming observant. He got angry at me and said that if I ever mention religion again our friendship is over. Then he added, “I was on my way to work this morning and two Lubavitchers tried to get me to put on Tefillin. I got rid of them by telling them I’m not Jewish.” So, think about it. This guy was about 35 at the time. The last connection he had to Judaism was at his Bar Mitzvah. Now, on the same day, Hashem sent him two wake up calls, but he ignored them. I spoke to him recently and reminded him of this story, but he had no recollection of it. I hope Hashem judges him as a Tinok Shenishba because he’s a very nice guy, but Hashem sends warnings all the time, and people pay no attention.
Rebemes. Anyone can say anything. Heck a holy book, the Torah can say anything. Doesn’t mean people will fallow just because it says. If they understood why maybe they would. Please it’s so condsending the look down on anyone different or try to conform people to a certain way of life. Not everyone is you. They are them
RebEmes, maybe you do not have enough imagination how other people live. Someone who is raised in non-religious community may have “heard” something, but does not mean they fully understand the concepts. They may even have heard put it in such context that they do not take it seriously.
Most of those Israelis were not from religious families – Israel on average is becoming more religious, not less, B’H in the last 80 years. So, most of the (still) non-religious might have had kibutznikim grandparents… And even when you are talking about OTDs that grew up in a religious community, it might well be possible that their family and community did not present Yiddishkeit to them in the right way. I am not saying that real reshoyim do not exist, but in this generation most simple people have good excuses for their behavior, ignorance being the primary one.
Rebemes,
1) and what about in the USA?
2) and what if someone is misinformed as to what are mitzvos and what aren’t? Like Shabbos being “the day of rest so it only means dont go to work
The reform and conservative are reading the exact same Torah scroll as we do, very clear about many things that they don’t keep. Nobody could say that they can’t find the translation to homosexuality being forbidden or not getting a tattoo. The entire world knows what kosher is. It says 12 times in the scroll at least that the Sabbath must be observed, and all those secular people know that religious people tune out of their Electronics on Saturday and don’t drive. It’s very very hard for most of them to claim tinok shenishba no matter how strongly your feelings wish they could. In the end it’s not doing them a favor to give them a fake label and then they go upstairs and find out they were responsible. Yeah there are people that don’t even know they’re Jewish out there, and people that never heard of any Torah. But it’s super rare
To the group
This is a meaningless argument. Hashem knows every person’s life story and so only He can decide. Someone asked Rabbi Miller to comment on Tinok Shenishba and he sort of pushed it off. I think the reason he did so is because this is one of those subjects that only Hashem is privy to.
rebEmes> the entire world knows what kosher is
you really live in a different world than they do and it is hard to relate. Maybe this example: most people know that exercise and healthy food and not smoking and not getting angry is good for your health. How many people do not follow this? Even among doctors, even among yeshiva graduates. Now, imagine someone who is trained in all of that, figured out his calories and knows how to exercise every specific muscle. This person can’t relate to all those lazy people who are still surprised why they are not healthy.
Same with you – you can’t relate to people who grew up where “temple” is a place to sing and listen to a speech, etc. They heard what “kosher” is, but they don’t see people around them who follow this, so it is a theoretical construct of previous century … and maybe when they saw someone observant, they could not relate to them also. This is what R Soloveitchik was writing about in 1950s – he spent a whole night talking with American Jewish students about their questions about religion and philosophy and he says – they had nowhere to turn: reform clergy are not giving them anything deep, and eastern european rabbis don’t have the same language (both literally and figuratively)
Maybe you can relate to this – take posters here who denounce multitudes of observant Jews, repeating the same quotes from same several rabbis and totally ignoring everyone else. How did they get there. Presumably, they had yeshiva education and learned sevorah and kavod Talmidei Chachomim. But somehow, they were unfortunate to be among people or get absorbed by some idea that they reject the basics of yiddishkeit. It is hard to understand, but people’s minds are complicated things.
rebEmes, to illustrate what a random reform dude knows. When I was in college, I once was renting an apartment from such a guy. When he sees me preparing for shabbos, he would ask – “are you going to a temple”? I would answer “Ugh? I am going to the synagogue or shul XX”. After several times, I asked him – why is he insisting calling my shul “temple”. He said – isn’t it the same? I enlightened him that the ‘temple” thingy came out of the idea that we do not need a Temple in Yerushalaim anymore, that we can build local German/American temples”. He became very upset that he was unknowingly supporting this nonsense all his life and stopped saying that. Interestingly, he had no idea what he did not know, and I could not comprehend that he does not know and thought that he was annoying me on purpose.
To always
You make a good point, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Tinok Shenishba card is overplayed. Jews who grew up frum and left the faith are not Tinok Shenishba. They may have a reason for having gone lost, but to say that they’re Tinok Shenishba makes no sense. Troubled yes. But let’s not take it any further. RebEmes lies to write on VIN. He’s the typical hate filled Yeshiva junkie who looks for ways to convince himself that all Jews except for himself are going to hell.
And you think there are many Jews in Israel like this? Almost none. The US is a hopeless story already with the highest intermarriage rate possible. Frankly we don’t even know who’s Jewish anymore to save
“tinik shenishbu” has nothing to do with chilonim today (as mentioned by Shevet Halevi and others). Whatever their reason or background of a fraier, the “ones” of “tinok shenishbu” is only relevant regarding the obligation to kill a mimar with a crooked mesorah, It does nothing for a min, who is still a min as he doesn’t believe in “ikkarei hadaas” (see Rambam on Perek Chelek, Tshivas Mizrachi 57, Radbaz 786, Teviash Shir YD2, Chazon Ish YD2, etc)
It WOULD be relevant for anyone who is a maamin in all “13 ikarim”, keeps Shabbos publicly, and is in the middle of doing tshiva for his own crooked version of “Oral Torah” (such a person, according to the Rambam, would not be a min, rather a choteh b’ones so long as he doesn’t reject anything kosher moving forward). So, a fresh Baal Tshiva or Modern Orthodox person who is “flipping out” would not need to be killed when he steps into a kosher Beis Medrash the first time.
Regardless, It’s a machlokes rishonim if such a person (Baal Tshiva) would be allowed in any case to be accepted into Klal Yisroel because of concerns for mamzeros. We paskin today that we do accept Balei Tshiva into Klal Yisroe (but the minhag of many chinich mosdoses is to not let their kids in anyway)
The Rishonim who disagree with the Rambam’s novelty would say to shecht them at the first opportunity (a solid limid zchis for the aforementioned mosdoses who are forced to take those children in!)
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To RebEmes
I agree with you that most Jews are hopelessly lost, and the Gemara in Sanhedrin also agrees with us. What do you say to the Chabad belief that Moshiach will redeem every single Jew?
I don’t agree at all. I happen to not think that the people who spent their whole life doing the opposite of what Hashem wants are going to share the same fate as the ones who worked hard and sacrificed to do what Hashem wants because that turns the whole Torah pretty much into a lie and a joke. The opposite of every principle the religion is founded on. Perhaps they mean those who repented…
qwerty> Jews who grew up frum and left the faith are not Tinok Shenishba.
this was very typical a couple of generations ago … can we judge those who were swept by the enthusiasm of the times? As king Menashe says to R Ashi after beating him in learning: “if you lived in my time you would be running after me [after A’Z]” … who are OTD in our times? kids who go to modern schools and get involved in inappropriate behaviors and kids who go to very frum schools and are curious to what is out there. The latter ones are clearly suffering from their educators not preparing them to confront those challenges. I’ve seen for example such “frum” OTD girls when in non-Jewish environment starting flirting with passerby drunks, having no concept on what is appropriate in the world.
still, majority of the non-religious Jews in our times have no access to real Jewish education.
rebEmes> And you think there are many Jews in Israel like this? Almost none.
not clear what you are saying – that Israeli do not have people who do not understand Yiddishkeit? Plenty. How many chiloni friends do you have? Probably close to zero. And so do other charedim. Just because you bump into each other in the street, does not mean they understand mitzvos.
A rav here told me that he saw R Meir Shapiro on a trip to Canada, he was crossing a wide street, and a local policeman was at awe of this wonderful individual in a strange dress – he just stopped traffic on both sides and let the Rav cross comfortably. If Israeli chilonim were to see Yidden like that, maybe they’ll be also impressed.
> The US is a hopeless story already with the highest intermarriage rate possible.
right. R Soloveitchik in the story above was saying same thing in 1950s, or maybe even earlier, – he was telling Mizrachi 7leaders who were coming to US to fundraise: do you notice that only European-born Jews donate to you, not their children. Yes, Israeli Torah is important but at the end those Jews will stay Jewish, you must invest in Jewish schools for American Jews. So, those who still remain in our times are still important to be saved …
somejew> . We paskin today that we do accept Balei Tshiva into Klal Yisroe (but the minhag of many chinich mosdoses is to not let their kids in anyway)
you seem to beat your own records of bizayon. Yes, let’s continue what the commies were doing and keep Jewish children away from Torah.
Hopefully, those kids will find a better place than such mosdos.That belief runs contrary to every holy book that we have on the Shelf. The entire chumash/mishna/gemara/ and even the Tanya itself becomes a joke and a lie if someone comes to say that those who didn’t keep the Torah and did whatever they want will share the same fate as those who committed to it and spent their whole life working hard and restraining themselves. I don’t think anyone actually believes that lie. Do people think Hashem is some stupid liberal? The entire premise of the religion including what we say in shema twice a day is that hashem rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. This happy Redemption for all is what we call feel good Judaism and it’s not accurate
To always
Let me explain what happens when the Tinok Shenishba argument is taken to its illogical conclusion. About two years I was arguing on VIN with this fellow who quoted the Chazon Ish as saying that all irreligious Jews today have the status of Tinok Shenishba. I wrote back to him that Alan Dershowitz can’t be called a Tinok Shenishba because he was raised frum and walked away from it because he felt that the religion would stunt his children from reaching their potential. He didn’t leave Judaism because he was molested or for some other trauma, he proudly announced on the radio that this was a decision that he made when he was 29 years old under no duress
To rebEmes
Thank you for responding to my question. You and I are in complete agreement that if a person decides to live his life in a manner that’s contrary to the Torah, he will face serious consequences, be it in this world and or in the next. This said, the Chabad Rabbi, Manis Friedman stated the following, “Today, because of the long bitter Golus, no Jew can be punished no matter what sin he committed.” This is outright Kefirah, but it’s in line with Chabad theology that the Rebbe will come back to save every Jew. Let me explain why I’m writing to you. I think you can see that I’m well thought out. As do you, I also write on VIN. You know me as “Drop Dead”, the fellow who has been fighting with BMG guy. The other day you endorsed BMG guy. I assume that you aren’t aware of why there’s an argument. I pointed out that Manis Friedman is a Kofer and he went insane. BMG guy is no longer frum but he’s in love with Manis for saying that nothing will happen to sinners. BMG guy has used my actual name to slander me. He has written that my office is open on Shabbos, an outright lie, and he writes that I have insulted Gedolim, another outright lie. The only Rabbi I have criticized is Manis Friedman. If you want to confirm what I’ve said I can send you the link to hear Manis spout his Kefirah I don’t lie. I don’t need you to apologize I just want to clear my name from that Moser who lies about me in public, and he fools people into believing him. If you’ll look at that thread, he wrote that Galachim know more Torah than our Gedolim. The problem is that he uses my name when he writes his garbage because he wants people like you to think I’m crazy. I am very respected on YWN because they don’t allow psychos like BMG guy to write. Let’s continue this discussion.
There’s a list longer than Manis friedman of people who are out there spreading nonsense and misleading the public. And they’ve been reached out to respectfully Many times and refuse to engage or retract. That’s why it’s very important to get the word out that people shouldn’t listen to them, because those who follow are in danger. You’ll find more wicked kofrim like Dror Cassouto, Natan slifkin, Boteach, and UK dweck yemach shemo doing more damage than you can imagine. A lot of these fake “everyone is excused from their sinful Behavior ” comes from them. No kosher rabbi ever says such a thing
I hear alot of “conformity to our strict code of conduct is the only way to the truth”
Now I respect your beliefs but this obsession with my way or the highway is not allowing for nuance to enter the chat.
Every single person has a very unique life with very unique circumstances. You can’t force everybody to fit into one umbrella system
That’s just crazy.
_if_ the world actually worked that way we would all look exactly the same like a bunch of robots. Yet we don’t. Obviously and look around you, by the multitude of paths people take in life, there must be plenty of different ways a person can operate. Not just one.
Thinking there is only one is so intolerant and complelty disconnected from reality.
If we were open to a little more nuance it might be helpful until then there just will be this obsessive need to control all paths of life and conform conform conform
That’s crazy talk. It just doesn’t exist.
Maybe start thinking about nuance and differences of lifestyle like the stars in the sky each plays his roles.
I’m not saying I agree with everyone’s lifestyle or how they live, I don’t agree with everybody, but I can respect differences not try to change people to conform to one direction.
There is no one direction.
When you walk in forest and there is a fork in the road. Is there only one way to go? Nope there’s always going to be a few. And the same way people are all different it’s also going to manifest differently for everybody too.
I don’t see really what the point is if everybody was a picture perfect copy of the other.
It’s an impossiblity just like the sky is blue. So stop fighting and stop force conforming your will or beliefs on everybody else.
It’s stupidity already. Grow. Up. Wake uprebEmes> did whatever they want will share the same fate as those who committed to it and spent their whole life working hard and restraining themselves.
it is in the gemora about a bandit who followed some fancy expensive laddy and then did a teshuva at the last moment and achieved in one moment than what others achieve in their whole life
another look is from R Dessler – in the moshal of sulam Yaakov, everyone wants to climb up the ladder, but everyone starts at a different level and is judged not by the level he ends up, bu where he is relative to his starting point. I hope I am recalling his point correctly.
qwerty> that this was a decision that he made when he was 29 years old
go, find out what yeshiva he was learning at and don’t send your kids there. Chofetz Chaim reportedly did not shake the hand of a Rav of the town where Trotsky grew up … we blame “reform” for making so many people go astray, but think about Mendelsohn trying to do something about it – by publishing Chumash in vernacular – well before ArtScroll, and influential rabbis denouncing his effort. Now, from the passage of time, I think everyone understands that it was not Mendelsohn’s fault that Jews were assimilating in Germany, and doing nothing was not the right answer.
I don’t think in all these cases, people who did something wrong are innocent, but to a large degree it is the “fault” either of the “times” or even of those self-righteous people who didn’t help or provide discouraging examples.
To rebEmes
YWN has its own kofer, the mishugenah who calls himself Nevuah. He decided that Hashem, who he calls god, wouldn’t punish anyone for violating the Mitzvahs because he’s a loving god.
Love also requires descpline when neccisary qweurty but I’m glad your so bold to put words in my mouth
Qwerty boohoo. I spoke out of line said something outside the box. So sad it must be. Maybe think about what I said instead of jumping down my throught.
What you don’t realize you are doing is. You decided your way is the truth and then your condescendingly looking down on everybody else why they don’t know the truth like you do.
Even if your very convicted in your beliefs it’s still not a realistic way of thinking as everybody has different life circumstances that has led them to different places in life giving them some rym or reason why they are not like you.
I think your attitude is very condensing and intolerant and sometimes threatening “they will be severely punished” by who? You?
Don’t blaspheme the name of God in the name of your false religion I think God might be very insulted at the way you treat people and might not look at _you_ very kindly.Mendelsohn’s book was banned because of דעות כוזבות that he had before he wrote his book. His children converted and intermarried because of those דעות כוזבות. Read what Chazal said about מרים בת בלגה.
I don’t know how anyone can read the chumash in basic translation and come to a conclusion that there’s no punishments. So many pesukim say “מות יומת” and 2 parshios deal with specific threats that come to people who don’t listen. And then people ask where is God why does God do bad things to us, but if they would just read basic English ud get your answers. This fake feel good Judaism is leading too many astray. The mishna/gemara/rambam/shulchan aruch/ all the mussar books and even the Tanya speak of consequence and punishment. Get with the program society you don’t Wana discover this after your levaya
Most Yeshiva Bochurim today would fall under Tinuk Shanishba.
pekak, look up in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/divide-among-torah-schools-of-thought-yu-riets-vs-the-greater-yeshiva-world
I quoted 19 letters by R Hirsch, starting with
When the external yoke began to grow lighter, and the spirit felt itself freer, then arose a brilliant, respect-inspiring personality, Mendelssohn, which by its commanding influence has led the later development up to this day.And please consider context of this discussion – if your claim that the detractors had issues with specific shitos were true, then Chasam Sofer would have written his own german translation … he did not … and then eastern european rabbis who had quite some time to prepare for the “spirit felt itself freer” based on german experience – were also not fully prepared. So, when Jews in unexpectedly free from Russian oppression Poland & Lithuania in 1920s were exposed to modernity, assimilation was hard to stop.
As an example, R Salanter noticed presence of women in German Torah classes and said that he will be kicked out were he to do same in Lita. And Chofetz Chaim writing both for Polish Jews and earlier for Jews who travelled to America/South Africa (Nidhei Yisroel) has a couple of chapters explaining how bad it is to have relations with non-Jewish women or unmarried women – and calls on travelers to learn halochos related to their travels (such as, how to do netilas yadayim with unusual kelim or water), but says absolutely nothing on how the bochur is supposed to find an ehrliche meidele – nothing about teaching daughters (at least as far as I could find). For Polishe Yidden, he calls “not to send daughters to (non-Jewish) gymnasia” and for those who know how to read to read their illiterate sisters a page or two about halochos of niddah.
Imagine if in our days, all boys went to yeshiva and all girls went to public schools.
To Pekak
Always is a nice guy and a Torah Jew, but he’s a contrarian. He’ll find one case out of a billion and then say that this represents the rule. Obviously, Hashem is the true judge of the world. He knows everything about each of us and He judges accordingly. As for Mendelsohn, it’s not so clear that you can dismiss him as a Rosho and then impute that his family went lost because of his false ideas. Rabbi Yisrael Salanter was as great as they come, and he had a son who left the faith.
To rebEmes
Now you’ve been exposed to the psychofer. He is like BMG guy, but BMG guy is even worse. They’re both total atheists. As for your comment “even the Tanya” this implies that you don’t hold from the Tanya, but I don’t see why. The Baal Hatanya was a Gaon Olam and a perfect Tzaddik. Chabad as it’s presently constituted has nothing to do with the Alter Rebbe.
I have nothing against the Tanya, I was making a point that even those who swear to live by it are not actually really following it either because they ignore critical chapters of punishment and Hell. Obviously there’s some agenda there but if they would actually learn it we would be looking at a completely different movement
qwerty> it’s not so clear that you can dismiss him as a Rosho
right, but I would think if “it’s not so clear”, you apply Pascal wager here – the minute pleasure of sticking it to someone v. the infinite personal cost of maligning a talmid chochom, or using R Hirsh’s words “brilliant, respect-inspiring personality”, one should refrain. And, the most interesting part of relating to such a personality – try to understand his way of thinking, even if (in your opinion) he happened to be wrong.
To rebEmes
Obviously, Chabad doesn’t follow the Tanya even though they brag about learning it, because their main Rabbi, Manis Friedman says that no Jew can be punished today no matter what sin he commits. And obviously Chabad doesn’t believe in Rambam even though they make a Siyum on Rambam because they ignore his criteria for Moshiach. Now, hopefully you understand why BMG guy hates me so much. He can’t stand that I speak the truth about Chabad. That’s why he talks about the 30-million-dollar lawsuit that Chabad is filing against me for defaming Manis Friedman and the other Meshugenah Shlomo Cunin who made a video that it’s the Rebbe who runs the world. Pay attention to what that psycho writes and you’ll see that I’m telling the truth. It’s confusing to follow him because he uses 10 or 15 different aliases at the same time to confuse people.
If they’re really suing you for speaking against Manis they should also file one against R ahron feldman of ner yisrael who warned against him in the clearest of terms which can be found straight on YouTube. Defamation is making up something that isn’t true, and what they are saying about him is absolutely true. He spreads false teachings and fools many naive people into living a life that could lead to their destruction. That’s not defamation. We have all the sources in the world to prove Friedman wrong and he refuses to engage because he knows he will be buried alive and embarrassed. That’s not a rabbi that’s a corrupted celebrity
Rav Yisroel Salanter was at least a generation later when the Haskalah was running rampant. Mendelsohn was the beginning of the Haskalah.
Reb emes these are not threats they are _consenquences_
We need to differentiate control from Devine discipline
This is very important distinction because one comes from extreme need for control and the other comes from deep connection to your wellbeing.
Let’s give an example
Let’s say I was a really bad person and I was stealing and pillaging and just being all around cruel.
Intense threat would be neccisary right?
But none of us are insanely cruel, we are human and fallable,
We aren’t pillaging and carrying on doing things we shouldn’t do generally,
I think the Torah gives more of framework to life rather then a threat of fear generally.
It kind of lays out the playing field to keep us aware of where the spiritual bombs are lying beneath our feet so we don’t step there.
Harsh sentences and deep consenquences are for when we truly lose our humanity, which can come from deep areagence, insane cruelty and destruction of consciouce.
_that_ is when those warnings matter
That’s when Devine force becomes real, that’s when things get harsh and destructive.
When read in context of real life, do you think your such a bad person you deserve constant fear punishment?
It depends on how disconnected you are from your soul, but generally I don’t believe people are trying to be all bad.
So perhaps the framework of your intrpreations need to be read through lense of “most of the time we are trying our best”
But we will only actually get truly punished if we actually leave it
Actually deserve it.
So…..do you deserve to be punished for something. Sometime yes. Sometimes ideology can lead to insane, crippling discrimatuon against anyone that is not like us. Yes that might lead to moral decay corruption and Devine retribution, that is true. But do you truly deserve it. Not all the time
So when you read the good book again realize this,
Only when your truly doing something corrupt that’s when you activate Devine authority and retribution
Only when your soul is black as ice does God wield the sword because of the harm you do for others.
And God defends the defenseless, always. Don’t cross those that are suffering. You won’t be very lucky after that, trust me.
I just think, that when you read the Torah in context of real life, punishment isn’t about fear it’s about discipline when we are going astray from conscience and doing what is kind and right in the eyes of God.
A personal accounting would look like: wow I vilified that person because of my arrogance, despite how they were struggling. I treated them like they were beneath me. maybe God isn’t happy with my behaviour” Not “omygod I did borrer by mistake”
One doesn’t have anything to do with reality, one releases Devine forces of retribution. Which isn’t pretty.
A personal accounting of real scanarios not fake ones based on fear mongering and controlReb emes these are not threats they are _consenquences_
We need to differentiate control from Devine discipline
This is very important distinction because one comes from extreme need for control and the other comes from deep connection to your wellbeing.
Let’s give an example
Let’s say I was a really bad person and I was stealing and pillaging and just being all around cruel.
Intense threat would be neccisary right?
But none of us are insanely cruel, we are human and fallable,
We aren’t pillaging and carrying on doing things we shouldn’t do generally,
I think the Torah gives more of framework to life rather then a threat of fear generally.
It kind of lays out the playing field to keep us aware of where the spiritual bombs are lying beneath our feet so we don’t step there.
Harsh sentences and deep consenquences are for when we truly lose our humanity, which can come from deep areagence, insane cruelty and destruction of consciouce.
_that_ is when those warnings matter
That’s when Devine force becomes real, that’s when things get harsh and destructive.
When read in context of real life, do you think your such a bad person you deserve constant fear punishment?
It depends on how disconnected you are from your soul, but generally I don’t believe people are trying to be all bad.
So perhaps the framework of your intrpreations need to be read through lense of “most of the time we are trying our best”
But we will only actually get truly punished if we actually leave it
Actually deserve it.
So…..do you deserve to be punished for something. Sometime yes. ideology can lead to insane, crippling discrimatuon which might lead to moral decay, corruption and Devine retribution, that is true. But do you truly deserve it. Not all the time
So when you read the good book again realize this,
Only when your truly doing something corrupt that’s when you activate Devine authority and retribution
Only when your soul is black as ice does God wield the sword because of the harm you do for others.
God defends the defenseless, always. Don’t cross those that are suffering. You won’t be very lucky after that, trust me.
when you read the Torah in context of real life, punishment isn’t about fear it’s about discipline. when we are going astray from conscience, and doing great cruelty in the name of areagence or belief, only then is Devine discipline actually neccisary.
A personal accounting would look like: wow I vilified that person because of my arrogance, despite how they were struggling. I treated them like they were beneath me. maybe God isn’t happy with my behaviour” Not “omygod I did borrer by mistake”
One doesn’t have anything to do with reality, the other releases Devine forces of retribution. Which isn’t pretty.
A personal accounting of real scanarios not fake ones based on fear mongering and control is what reality is all about.And yes your going to say, well on shabbas someone got the death penalty for taking wood. Blah blah. True. Shabbas Is clearly very important to God. And for his people. Your right but that’s doesn’t happen in every scenario. There are only very specific scanarios that people get disciplined to that degree. Don’t translate the importance of shabbas to every aspect of everyday life
Your creator is not abusive hello.
God cares about every living thing and looks out for their wellbeing.
Is fear mongering wellbeing?
Is control wellbeing?
Is do or die, ultimately something that leads people to a better life?
No those are very constricting controlling ideals. Those are unhealthy ideals, those are cruel interpretation of reality.
You would never accept that kind of behavior from anyone in your life and you would prob feel very bad for someone who was stuck in that kind of real life situation,
So how can you translate that to your creator.
Maybe, the truth is, someone somewhere hijacked the truth and told you lots and lots of outright liesTo rebEmes
There’s no lawsuit. That’s just another lie from BMG guy. He thinks he can scare me. He also invented some poster named Mohammed something who says he’s investigating various complaints about my office. He’s insane like the Kofer Nevuah. They both hate me because I stand up for the Torah that they rejected. When he started talking about the lawsuit, I told him that it was public knowledge that Manis was a Kofer because Rabbi Feldman said so. He responded that his team of lawyers led by Rachel Herman said that just because someone else called him a Kofer won’t help me in court. The only reason I’m sharing all this is so that if I deal with that maniac again on VIN, I want you to be on my side which is the side of the Torah.
To pekak
I was just making the point that we can’t judge a person by his children or grandchildren. Rabbi Yisroel Salanter was a perfect Tzaddik and his son went lost. Rav Moshe had two granddaughters who went OTD. I think it’s too convenient for people to say that since Mendelsohn’s descendants left the fold it proves that he was a Rosho. Only Hashem can decide. Since he kept the Torah, we must dan him Lkaf Zchus.
Pekak, Mendelssohn was in the generation that first confronted modernity. He tried to address the issues. If litvish would have paid attention to what was happening in Germany, they would have been ready by the time of r Salanter. They/we were not.
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