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What’s going on with the draft at the moment? And what’s meant to happen in the next 2 or 3 years. Are there really going to be criminal sanctions, i.e. bochurim put in prison?
When Rav Steinman says ‘lehitzatzev’, how does one then get out of actually being drafted. I heard there are legal loopholes. Can anyone explain how it all works?
As a mother of a bunch of boys living in E.Y., having made aliya, this whole topic gets me nervous.
why not go to the army?
tzvik: Spiritual danger. (Even if you argue against this point, those who do find it to be so will not relent on this point.)
SoL: I doubt the government will put tens of thousands of Chareidi draft dodgers in jail even if the law mandates a draft of them. Does the government really want to draft neteurei karta guys or anyone who will resist their having been drafted?
If they have flat feet, they might be exempt.
Better to encourage than force. Throwing charedim in jail will not accomplish anything other than creating a lot of jail kollels.
The IDF should also pay more attention to its own rabbis, and charedi leaders should tell charedi youth that yes, IDF rabbis are orthodox and can be relied upon (and know a lot more about the halachot of army service).
The dati community used to have a huge OTD problem when its young men entered the army. But it realized that the army is needed and it made changes, creating hesder yeshivot and army prep schools. The charedi community should do the same. While many datim are modern orthodox, many others are barely distinguishable from charedim other than dress and the fact that they serve in the army (some in Nachal Charedi!). Concerns are real but they can be worked out if all are willing to work things out.
As charedim become a larger and larger share of the Israeli population, charedim do need to take responsibility for the defense of the country. Otherwise the Arab rashaim will overrun everything and anyone who thinks that torah study will prevent that should look at the example of Eastern Europe in the 1940s.
There isn’t expected to be this issue. There is a quota of Chareidim that need to enter the army. Most outside people who look into this think the quotas will probably be met from voluntary Chareidi enlistment (or come close enough that no one will care).
A quota? Perfect. The kehilla can hire a few khappers to grab the poor kids and it’ll be just like the alter heim.
I think the spiritual danger issue is a bunch of nonsense. If you go in weak, you’ll come out weak. The IDF doesn’t try to take anyone away from Torah. They even give out Chumashim at the induction ceremony. They as accommodating as possible. Maybe something is wrong with the Chinuch process if people feel their boys are at risk spiritually.
The have been plenty of people become Baalei Teshuva because of the IDF and their interaction with Frum soldiers.
CHAZAL tell us that Noach was lacking. The issue is in what way? The Zohar says that Noach, while he was a Tzaddik, was solely focused on himself and didn’t try to reach out to others. This as opposed to Avraham Aveinu. Isn’t the Chareidi world doing the same thing as Noach? If someone is strong in their beliefs, no one will negatively influence them.
Torah learning is vital for the survival of the State. However, the Chareidi position is that no one should serve, whether they are learning or not. The Yeshiva Bocher statements are used to divide. Not all Chareidi boys are learning and not all are capable of really learning. The mentality is flawed. Boys, who are not learning, are even discouraged from learning a trade to be able to support a family. It’s an unsustainable situation and others are rightfully resenting it and it’s causing a backlash.
If the positions in the Chareidi world weren’t so severe, it would be different.
To Spice of Life: Do you feel it’s ok for other people’s children to risk their lives to protect you, but your children should be immune? All our children are precious, your and other peoples. Without the IDF, we would all be massacred. Don’t say Hashem will protect us without the IDF. Hashem protects us within the framework of our own Hishtadlus. Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t told to sit back and let Hashem do all the fighting for us. We had to fight too.
Think of Chevron 1929. That’s what we’d be facing without the IDF. No one wants their children in harms way, but what choice is there?
Netanyahu will lose, Herzog will be the next PM with a left coalition of Meretz, Shas & UTJ, & Hatenuah, perhaps the Russians & parts of Yesh Atid. They will concentrate on social issues (especially prices and housing) & an agreement with whatever ends up existing in Syria. The Charaidim will get their money at the expense of all support for settlements being rolled back.
I’m not a Navi, but this is realistic.
Just one small point… Noach was a lot older than the bachurim your talking about….
I think the best answer is to not force chareidim into the army, but government stipends should only be given to those who have done their service. No army? No money for you!
To Barry: I believe that is an often misunderstood teitch of the Noach issue. Noach was not faulted for not reaching out to other people. he did that very much. He took 120 years to build a teiva, for that purpose explicitly. There are also maamarei Chazal that describe Noach and Mesushelach traveling around and talking to people.
Noach is faulted for not davening for the salvation of generation, like Avrohom Avinu did before the destruction of Sedom and at other times as well. Chareidim that I know do daven for the protection of the soldiers all the time. Yes I know that most don’t say the Mi Sheberach that was composed in recent times. But they say tehillim, and they say the time tested pisgam of Acheinu kol bais Yisroel.
Giving out chumashim at an induction ceremony means absolutely nothing if the behavior once they’re in the army is k’neged Hatorah.
The dangers of a Chevron massacre could be avoided with a simple police department. This against foreign countries, with weapons and propaganda and terrible things.
dont wanna go thru this again but
I think the spiritual danger issue is a bunch of nonsense. If you go in weak, you’ll come out weak.
Untrue. because
A-The IDF doesn’t try to take anyone away from Torah.
Untrue.
B-Maybe something is wrong with the Chinuch process if people feel their boys are at risk spiritually. Awrite then, whatsay we all just move to vegas. Supposed to be nice there now.
I think my chinuch was pretty good, maybe i’ll invite Richard Dawkins over for a coffee.
Seems like something was wrong with your chinuch process bro.
Acording to contemporary accounts, the Hevron massacre was planned with the knowledge and approval of the government (then part of British Empire). They were trying to get a war going between the Jews and Arabs, which is why they targeted the non-zionist community in Hevron (much easier to start a war if the Jews were led by zionists). Unless the Jews had sufficient military force to defeat the British Empire, more Jews armed men wouldn’t have helped.What might have helped was if there was a Hareidi-Arab alliance, but that fell apart after the zionists (which British help) assasinated Jacob Israel De Haan in 1924.
BarryLS1 and to all who express opinion here opposite the Gedolim:
It’s mind boggling to me to see how people can talk straight up against our Gedolim who are leading us in this rough golus. Rav Shteinman and the other Gedolim have told us NOT to go and stay in Yeshiva. No questions as asked. We listen unconditionally, no matter what our own logic tells us. This being because they perceive everything the way the Torah wants and they act upon that. We see with our own logic, not necessarily through the Torah. But of course we”ll answer it up to fit with the Torah with logic like “Hishtadlus”. Foolishness this is, do you think R’ Shteinman Shlita doesn’t know about hishtadlus.
HIE: first of all i agree completely that we should follow our gedolim blindly, even if they say right is left and left is right.
however, i believe, thought i am not so well versed in these topics, and if i am wrong correct me, that dati lumi gedolim are not opposed to the draft.
Showjoe- so let dati go to the army…
Hie- right on the ball… it’s amazing how people like BARRY LS1 and CHARLIEHALL have there own opinions for the chareidim in these matters…
Charliehall- “Barely distinguishable”- maybe if you close your eyes and have a great imagination…
An observation:
R’ Moshe in his teshuva (Y.D. 4:33), doesn’t use the sevara of “spiritual danger”. Granted, he wrote the teshuva in 1981, so one could argue that the metzius was different.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=263&hilite=
“As charedim become a larger and larger share of the Israeli population, charedim do need to take responsibility for the defense of the country. Otherwise the Arab rashaim will overrun everything and anyone who thinks that torah study will prevent that should look at the example of Eastern Europe in the 1940s”
You might want to try checking what haskalah and reform were doing at that time before insinuating that Torah alone cannot protect us. I’m not saying that the army should not exist, but anyone who can learn should.
showjoe: I tell you Rav Shteinman and you tell me DatiLeumi? Is that normal? Dati Leumi are not the people who are telling us what the Torah wants. They are going right K’neged the hashkafos that Torah wants from us. Modern orthodoxy is directly Kneged the Torah. Hashem wants us to follow the people who live with the Torah and know exactly what is wanted from us. Not people who think that we have to fit in to society. We are different. We are the chosen nation, and we have to be proud of that. We need not modernize ourselves even one iota. Rav Shteinman is leading the Jewish people. Modern orthodoxy is MISLEADING the Jewish people.
With that being said, Gut Voch to all.
HIE: And that means that the rabbanim to whom Dati Leumi look to for guidance are what?
Just regular Joe Shmoes?
Apikorsim (ch”v)?
Because most of these people whom you disdain have more Torah in their pinky toe than you’ll likely ever know. And I don’t mean this personally- this probably applies to the majority of us on this board. The amount of Torah that they know is staggering.
Will you say that they are misapplying it? That they were misled in some way? But why shouldn’t some gedolei Torah be given the same latitude given to other gedolei Torah in making a psak?
Perhaps you are merely saying these things about these rabbanim because they don’t agree with YOU or YOUR rabbanim.
(Just BTW- I’m not NECESSARILY stating my opinion on this subject by writing this. I’m just trying to make a point.)
I’m also just stating a point.
I don’t care how much Torah Avi Weiss knows he’s a CHILLUL SHEM SHAMAYAIM. Knowing Torah isn’t everything. LIVING Torah is everything.
writersoul:
D”L/R”Z have no mesorah for their theology.
As any MO adherent can tell you, R”Z was created by Rabbi A.Y. Kook and further developed by his son and others.
(Incidentally, Chovevai Tzion is not relevant here, though there were plenty of Torah luminaries such as Rav Hirsch who – presciently – considered even that to be “no small aveirah”.)
As even a left-wing MO Rabbi admits, Rabbi Kook melded the secular philosophy of nationalism with, lihavdil, his Torah knowledge to create the travesty that is R”Z.
Torah giants like the Brisker Rav R’ Velvel called their theology “a drop of Torah mixed in to a sea of heresy”. The Chazon Ish and others held similarly.
Formidable Torah knowledge does not permit one to grossly distort the Torah, as the gedolim recognized is, unfortunately, the case here with D”L/R”Z.
So, to directly address your posts, the Rabbanim to whom the R”Z “look to guidance” are following a non-existent mesorah that, as the gedolim have stated clearly, is against the Torah.
Looks like what I thought was the “old” Coffee Room is still alive, at least in the threads on “heavy” subjects that I prefer not to read… I’ve seen two accusations of Joseph in the last few days, too…
Hakatan: Thank you.
“anyone who can learn should”
So start hesder yeshivot like the datim did!
Ok. Once this thread got somewhat distracted by the eternal Zionism debate:
Why is Zionism such a hot topic of debate? The State of Israel already exists, and there doesn’t seem like there is much we can do about that. (And I think that most Anti-Zionists don’t advocate for destroying the State.) It’s pretty obvious that the State does good things and bad things. On any given issue related to Israel, every posek/important Rabbi/whatever you want to call them should formulate an opinion in much the same way as they do in any other area. If the question is whether or not to serve in the army, then the issues to be determined are whether it is a milchemet mitzvah, whether it is pikuach nefesh (both physically and spiritually) in either direction, whether it is unacceptable bittul torah etc. Conceivably, one can hold that one is obligated to serve in the army on the basis of ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? (Hilchos Melachim 5:1) yet still be an anti-zionist. Similarly, one can be a fervent zionist and still hold not to say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut because that is his/her conclusion in the sugya of Hallel. The various positions on the contemporary mitzvah of living in Israel also should be irrelevant to Zionism. The only real difference that I see, is the extent of focus on Israel/the State of Israel, which hardly seems like something worthy of such devisiveness.
‘D”L/R”Z have no mesorah for their theology.’
To the contrary, the idea that everyone needs to learn and not work, and to learn only torah and not secular studies, is explicitly rejected by Chazal and Rambam and both teach that it is a mitzvah to learn at least enough secular knowledge to support oneself. Rambam also mastered science, philosophy, and secular history. Furthermore, Jews attended secular universities in Europe starting in the 15th century, with no objections from rabbis. Sforno earned a medical degree from the University of Rome. Rav Hirsh, Rav Hildesheimer, Rabbi Nathan Marcus Adler, Rabbi David Zvi Hoffmann, Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, and Rav Soloveitchik all were educated in secular universities and they all preceded the modern “everyone must learn Torah and only Torah” derech.
‘As any MO adherent can tell you, R”Z was created by Rabbi A.Y. Kook and further developed by his son and others.’
Actually, MO adherents will *not* tell you that if they are learned. The Mizrachi movement was founded before Rav Kook’s involvement by Rabbi Y. Y. Reines who had a very different derech from Rav Kook and for decades it was led by Rav Soloveitchik whose derech was much more like Rav Reines than Rav Kook.
“But why shouldn’t some gedolei Torah be given the same latitude given to other gedolei Torah in making a psak?”
Back in the day, Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l was very close to charedi gedolim including the Lubavicher Rebbe z’tz’l, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z’tz’l, and Rav Kotler z’tz’l. None would ever have permitted their talmidim to express the kind of lashan hara or motzi shem ra that we have seen in this thread. This thread has indeed proven the existence of yeridot hadorot.
“LIVING Torah is everything.”
And Rabbi Weiss is even according to his most bitter opponents a completely frum Jew, meeting the standards of a kosher eid.
PAA, he gave a better, eternal reason, for which he didn’t even need to get into the metzius, so there’s no reason to think he implied anything, even if the metzius was the same.
And Rabbi Weiss is even according to his most bitter opponents a completely frum Jew, meeting the standards of a kosher eid.
Except maybe the ICR.
DaasYochid:
Let me preface my remarks by stating that I am not offering a position on the issue of army service; I am discussing individual mekoros, at this particular moment, the teshuva of R’ Moshe.
I will start by isolating his individual points:
1) Army service is an inyan gadol.
2) Limud Hatorah is better as we see in Bava Basra.
3) The government recognizes this and grants exemptions to those who are learning.
4) Therefore, one who has a passion for learning Torah and to become a gadol in Torah, Hora’ah, and yiras shamayim should go to Yeshiva.
First of all, (and this part is really just stam a kashye on the teshuva, not relevant to what you said) how does the Gemara show that learning is better? All the Gemara says is that the Rabbanan are patur. If anything the Gemara should indicate the oppoisite, because if learning was better (for protective purposes, which is what R’ Moshe seems to be saying) then the entire city should be patur. (You can perhaps give some answer involving hishtadlus, but I’ll leave that up to you.)
His only other point in support of staying in Yeshiva is that the government is maskim. Obviously, then if the government is no longer maskim then this point would cease to be relevant. In such a scenario, all we have left is that Torah is better than Army Service. Now here is where the metzius would be relevant. It is eminently conceivable that a point can be reached where despite Torah being better than army service, the psak could be to to gather arms. I think many people would say that if there was an armed bad guy in the Yeshiva, one should stop learning in order to shot him. (That is an extreme example, intended to illustrate a point.) At this point, it can become very relevant whether the army is spiritually dangerous, as that might override the concerns that are advocating for army service. Therefore it would be instructive for R’ Moshe to discuss it.
Not a kashya, the whole city isn’t patur because they’re not learning.
He was answering two yeshiva bochrim who were asking if they should join the army, and he gave the most basic reason not to, so they can continue learning. His answer applies even if there would be units which would be glatt kosher in ruchniyus.
It would be more instructive had they asked him if they should work or join the army, and described the spiritual danger. But that wasn’t the question they asked.
Here is Rav Moshe’s Psak:
?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ????
???? ???? ??? ???? ?????.
???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????
???????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???.
??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????, ???
????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????
???? ?? ?????? ?? ??????, ?????? ??? ???? ????
?? ??? ??? ????? ??? (????? ????? ???? ????? ???
????? – ?????) ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???????.
?????? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ??, ??? ?????
?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????.
???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???????
???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????, ?? ?? ????
??????? ???????, ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????
????? ??? ?????.
????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????
?????? ??????
??? ?????????
If you look at this, Rav Moshe says that “one who has a desire to learn Torah and to become a Gadol b’Torah, Hora’a, and Yiras Shomayim has the right (Yesh Lo) to go to Yeshiva Gedola, and there will be a Bracha to Klal Yisrael and a protection to all Jews”.
In other words, this psak is only for one who truly wants to stay in learning – and not carte blanche to all Chareidim to avoid military service. Unfortunately, I know too many “Chareidi” boys who are “in Yeshiva” only because (a) it’s the socially acceptable thing to do; (b) they have no marketable skills. Most of these boys would do much better to go into the army – albeit in a framework designed to meet their religious standards – and get on with their lives.
an Israeli Yid (and proud father of a truly Frum IDF soldier)
DaasYochid:
I think you misunderstood my kashya. The kashya is that the Gemara says that the Rabbanan are patur because they do not need protection. Apparently, the rest of the city which is not patur, does need protection, despite the Torah learning of the Rabbanan. Had the Gemara said that the Rabbanan and the laymen are equally protected and the Rabbanan are patur because they are contributing to the city’s protection in a different way, then it would be a different story.
As to the rest of your response, do you think that if R’ Moshe thought that there was a grave spiritual danger, he would unqualifyingly write that army service is an inyan gadol? I highly doubt it, and anyway he should have told them that it is assur to go the army instead of just telling them that Yeshiva is better. Since when does R’ Moshe only mention one of two reasons for something in his teshuvos, especially when not mentioning the second one is quite misleading. Let’s say for example that these two guys one day became physically incapable of learning for whatever reason. Well according to you, what would come out is that these guys would join the army based on R’ Moshe’s teshuva, when in fact R’ Moshe would hold that it’s assur to join the army. I don’t see how it is could be that R’ Moshe held that something is assur yet simply wrote that it is an inyan gadol. I guess there’s always the possibility that he was pandering to them and didn’t intend to publish this teshuva for the general populace, and it was post-humously published.
AIY: He says if the bochor “desires”. Only the bochor can tell us if he desires. We cannot tell the bochor that he doesn’t desire if he says he desires.
PAA, R’ Moshe wasn’t trying to prove the concept of ???? ????? from that gemara, that’s a given (based on other gemaras), he was showing a direct comparison between talmud Torah and physical protection, and that talmud Torah is more important.
I don’t know what R’ Moshe did or did not know about the spiritual dangers involved in army service at the time, or how effective he thought it would be to bring it up, but we really can’t be medayek anything from what you consider an omission.
The only thing you see from that Gemara is that the Rabbanan don’t need physical protection since their Torah protects them. It seems that the Torah does not protect anyone else. And it also seems that the Rabbanan would be protected even if no physical measures were taken, for otherwise
???? ?? ????? ??????? would not really be true. (Perhaps one could argue that they don’t need protection, but they do need there to be a physical protection in order for their Torah protection not to be miraculous, but then in essence they need the physical protection just as much as the rest of the city, albeit for a different reason.) A possible ramification would be that the Rabbanan should not be allowed to use any of the physical resources.
In a somewhat related vein see Shu”t Radvaz chelek 2 siman 752:
???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????
????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????’ ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???. ??? ??”? ???’ ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? (?????) [?????] ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??? ??”? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???’ ???”? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??”? ?????? ?????? ???”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?”? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?”? ??”? ?????? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????
It seems that the Torah does not protect anyone else.
No, it just seems that the protection is not total, unless you want to make an unnecessary machlokes hasugyos.
Whatever it is, it’s enough that the Rabbanan don’t need physical protection and not enough for the laymen to not need physical protection.
Those who support zionism and the medinah, should serve in the army, and in fact many if not most do. Those who oppose zionism, favor peace, and are neutral in the Arab-Israeli Conflict (such as groups allied with Satmar), are legitimate conscientious objectors and shoujld not be conscripted.
Those who favor the state, but who want someone else to do the work, are hypocrites.
By impression is that most hareidim are ideologically sympathetic with the Satmar (i.e. Eidah Hareidis) position, but are by trying to peacefully co-exist with the zionists have created a misimpression that they support zionism. Rather than trying to be neutral in the Arab-Israeli conflict, they are trying to be neutral in the conflict between Torah and Zionism – which is a mistake but is understandable since we have a tradition of trying to avoid conflict with Jews (even apikoresim like the zionists).
And Rabbi Weiss is even according to his most bitter opponents a completely frum Jew, meeting the standards of a kosher eid.
I hardly think I am his most bitter opponent. (In fact, I hardly think there is anything bitter at all about my opposition.) And I do not agree with you on this. I think it would be extremely difficult to accept his testimony even in an agunah situation.
Charlie:
First, your anti-kollel argument has nothing to do with the travesty of R”Z.
So your “On the contrary…” phrase makes no sense. The matter is not one of Kollel versus R”Z, as you frame it, but rather, as I mentioned in my post as well, much more foundational.
Also, I preemptively addressed your mixing up Chovevei Tzion and R”Z in my post above. R”Z is, in Rav Elchonon’s words, Religion and, liHavdil, A”Z together. Chovivei Tzion was not R”Z.
I could have also noted that one of the early proponents of Chovivei Tzion publicly retracted his support later on, when he saw just how correct were Rav Hirsch and others who were against even that as “no small aveirah”.
PAA:
If one understands the position of the gedolim, including those who were there in E”Y at the time of the founding of the State of Israel, that Zionism is A”Z and kefirah, then one would likely not be flippant about what people believe when it comes to Zionism and people risking their lives, spiritually and physically, for Zionism.
Secondly, the practical solution at this point is for Hashem to perform a neis and redeem us all BB”A, which would end all this. But, instead, Zionists have fooled people into believing in the Zionist idol and to even pray specifically for it each week (as is, unfortunately, very common) in contradiction to this.
Finally:
The Brisker Rav, Rav Velvel, fell physically ill upon hearing of the State’s founding. His father, Rav Chaim, who died decades earlier, knew the State would be a disaster and made this known regarding “R”Z” even then.
The Chazon Ish sent a message to the Brisker Rav that the State was an example of “Gezeirah Raah Avida LiHiBatla”, a bad decree, which, like all bad decrees, would eventually come to an end.
The Brisker Rav responded that “Avida LiHibatla” applies only if people understand that it is a gezeirah raah. But if not, he said, I fear it will be with us until the coming of Mashiach.
If people would only daven for the true geulah, not Zionism, who knows…?
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