June 27, 2012 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #603909
my son is in yeshiva and he tells me how on friday nights some boys get drunk and when i heard this i was disgustedJune 27, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #882516
at least theyre not doing lots of terrible ossur things like the rest of the worlds youth. look on the bright side.June 27, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #882517
How old? How drunk?
I am not aware of any yeshiva where the guys GET DRUNK on friday night. I am also not aware of any yeshiva where the guys don’t DRINK on friday nights.June 27, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #882518
Ever the optimist Toi
It is a problem and the Rebbeim should come out against it. Perhaps the yeshiva could have someone who is a recovering alcoholic to come in and discuss the dangers of drinking with them.June 27, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #882519
Your comment is plainly irresponsible. Perhaps, one could debate whether to ignore casual drinking. I would certainly be among the machmirim, but I could entertain debate on it. But drunkeness is never acceptable. The medical label for drunkeness is “intoxication”. Translating that back into spoken English, it refers to a state in which the person is poisoned. That is never acceptable morally or halachically, and deserves the strongest efforts to stop it. Getting drunk Friday night, even if at a simcha is abonimable. It is NOT oneg Shabbos, it is NOT simcha, and it NOT muttar. That is every bit a serious as other “ossur” things other boys do, regardless of the environment they choose to act out.June 27, 2012 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #882520
its not written for nothing in the gemara that you know person according his caso, ciso, coso, – when he is drunk, meaning people were drinking already long time ago, dont worry.June 27, 2012 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #882521
its not written for nothing in the gemara that you know person according his caso, ciso, coso, – when he is drunk, meaning people were drinking already long time ago, dont worry.
I guess according to the Gemara you could never really know me, since I’ve never been drunk in my life.
The WolfJune 27, 2012 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #882522
I dont drink (BH) and I dont smoke (BH), but as a Bochur I know that if you Assur EVERYTHING you will turn a lot of guys off. Look at the adults who went crazy over the Asifa! All remember what happened with The Big Event and Chasunah Takanos? Lay off a little.
And about drinking, you adults even Assured it on Purim from Bochurim! Calm down!
And in my Yeshiva, the most I ever saw was 6 empty bottles of beer (in a Yeshiva of over 250 Bochurim)June 27, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #882523
Just because something existed long ago should not render us oblivious to its dangers and violations of halacha. There were many problems in the past. Virtually every Torah prohibition was violated somewhere during history, and many were widespread and known. We should not take them any more lightly than a plague of disease. Yes, a person can be assessed by evaluating his situation ?????, ?????, ??????. Since when is drunkeness legitimate?June 27, 2012 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #882524
“That is never acceptable morally or halachically”
Never? Many poskim would disagree with you regarding a certain day called Purim.
Anyway, in a sense Toi is right, assuming they are not getting dangerously or disgustingly drunk. Jump on Toi all you want, but Yeshiva guys drinking on Friday night IS a lot better than what is out there among some of the world’s other youth. I know when I was in Yeshiva (and I’m talking within the last decade), there was always a little drinking Friday night, and nobody really got drunk (although some of the non-socially adept certainly pretended to). If this is the worse thing the OP’s son is doing, (s)he should be thankful. Is it ideal? Probably not. But guess what – kids will be kids.June 27, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #882525
I thought everyone knew about the drinking problems in yeshivas. Yeshiva kids dont have many outlets and its one of the main ones. Im not condoning it in the slightest, but the reality is they know the Rebbeim don’t mind drinking as much as other less socially acceptable activities….so they drinkJune 27, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #882526
to The little I know:
i just wanted to say that if someguys get drunk because of some occasion and not stam azoy everyfriday dont make big deal from it.
sorry for my english.June 27, 2012 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #882527
I go to alot of shabbos meals where bochurim are present the yungerleit/baal habatim seem to always offer libations and they usually accept.June 27, 2012 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #882528
The Beis Yosef in Siman 695 quotes the Orchos Chaim that there is no greater Issur than getting drunk.June 28, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #882529
There is a difference between taking a drink and getting drunk. What is the point of your comment?June 28, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #882530
Getting drunk is off limits 24/7/365. It is even off limits on Purim. Drinking slightly more wine on Purim than on a regular day and falling asleep is more than enough to fulfill:- not knowing difference between Boruch Mordochai V Orrur Homon.June 28, 2012 5:17 am at 5:17 am #882531
Yes, drinking is very bad. ?????? ?????? says that one should not drink unless one has worries.
(I worry I won’t get enough to drink.)June 28, 2012 5:25 am at 5:25 am #882532
147- thats a little extreme dont you think. Nothing wrong with drinking occasionally as long as you control yourself and dont get wastedJune 28, 2012 5:34 am at 5:34 am #882533
Nothing wrong with drinking occasionally as long as you control yourself and dont get wasted
Sure. And nothing wrong with smoking as long as you don’t light the ends of the cigarettes on fire.June 28, 2012 10:29 am at 10:29 am #882534
if the only bad things my kids ever do is drink and smoke, i will be happy.June 28, 2012 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #882535
Smoking and drinking are two different stories, for two reasons.
First of all, one cigarette may be doing damage on its own (however slight – R’ Akiva and the rock), whereas one drink does not (if it did, there would never be a Mitzvah to drink, as there is on Pesach and Purim).
More importantly, nicotine is addictive in and of itself. One cigarette, therefore, is the first step to a lifetime of addiction. Alcohol, on the other hand, is not addictive. Sure, there are alcoholics, but their addiction is to the effects that the alcohol has on their emotional states of mind. One who is emotionally healthy will not become an alcoholic.June 28, 2012 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #882536
Toi – you will be happy they do nothing worse. But why are you happy they smoke and drink? If you can stop them drinking and smoking, why don’t/won’t you?
As a Bochur, i can tell you that if you ban everything, you will get nowhere. But there was a time where a group of boys were getting drunk on Thursday nights, and the Yeshiva closed the dorms for thursdays every week for a month (Everybody lives within an hour from the Yeshiva), and then reopened it ?? ???? that the bochurim agree not to drink. And it words – out of the whole Yeshiva, only two boys got drunk the whole Winter Zman (5 Months).June 28, 2012 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #882537
Please be corrected on the addictiveness of alcohol. There is a physical dependency that is among the most significant ones medically. Withdrawal from alcohol must be medically managed, as it is potentially fatal. The development of a physical dependency is statistically more likely when it is being used for its mind altering effects. But even if not, the addiction can happen. Because of how severe the risks can be, it is unwise to minimize this aspect of it. In my earlier comment, I noted that the casual drinking which is much less likely to lead to physical dependency is debatable, and I would side against it being allowed for bochurim.
You are absolutely correct in the addictiveness of a single cigarette. Actually, research indicates that it takes 4 cigarettes to establish dependency, and tobacco manufacturers actually handed out free packs of 5 cigs each many years ago to establish their customer base.June 28, 2012 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #882538
not nearly so clear cut on the purim issue – many rabbonim especially in lakewood disagree with youJune 28, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #882539
@yekke2 i am surprised that it worked in your yeshiva as such a move would be extremely ineffective in most yeshivos – for sure in beis medrash.June 28, 2012 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #882540
There is a difference between taking a drink and getting drunk. What is the point of your comment?”
Firstly most of them are under the legal age i know you will say since its friday night and they wont be driving whats the big deal it is against the law, secondly they dont stop at one or even two drinks and both the host and the bochurim take real pleasure in this practice i would go so far to say that some bochurim dont even like to drink but do so out of peer pressure it is seen as macho to drink.June 28, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #882541
I think the bottom line here is bochurim need outlets. Goq- you are correct about the legal aspect, but have you ever done anything illegal in your life? i think its part of growing up. Again im not saying drinking is an acceptable outlet, but does anyone have an answer for what is?June 28, 2012 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #882542
lo nitnah torah limalachey hashareis. if i can raise kids that will be satisfied rebelling in these aspects, but will willingly abstain from movies, music, internet, gambling, drugs, and everything else the average teen is oisek in i will be happy.June 28, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #882543
We used to drink in Yeshiva, however rarely did anyone get drunk.
The only times that I remember someone getting drunk, was when they wanted some attention.June 28, 2012 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #882544
Toi: I’m not sure what worse someone can do than putting both their’s and others’ lives in danger. But you’re right, compared to that not much else would be bad.June 28, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #882545
I guess Rava didn’t know the halacha about not drinking on Purim…
Back in the day, people drank on a daily basis. Bochurim having some beer with their thursday/friday night chulent is not the end of the world.
I did hear a story from somebody that they were walking and heard a bochur crying cuz his mother was throwing hot beer on him, but it was really just a message from shamayim warning us that the best way to be mechanech our youth is to try to drive them away with scary stories.June 28, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #882546
Toi -“lo nitnah torah limalachey hashareis. if i can raise kids that will be satisfied rebelling in these aspects, but will willingly abstain from movies, music, internet, gambling, drugs, and everything else the average teen is oisek in i will be happy.”
Who said some of these are Ossur and even if they all are who said they are worse than drinking?
E/o heard of the C.C. and he wrote a Sefer called Machneh Yisroel for people in the army and in it he has 26 chapters. One of the chapters is Shikrous (drunkedness).
I won’t repeat the whole chapter, just a part. He starts out saying a Talmid Chachum and for sure an Am Haaretz should never get drunk, but I want to repeat a part towards the end.
“Any Jew & esp. one in the army, if they find him even one time …or they find him drunk…there is a Big Chillul Hashem because the Goyim will start talking about Jews and their G-d and on and on.
Then he talks about how terrible the Aveira of Chillul Hashem is.”
The only thing I want to add, is that even if these Bochurim don’t do it in front of Goyim, they do it Betzina (hidden), it still is a Chillul Hashem. Because Rishonim explain the Ikkar Aveira of Chillul Hashem is in front of other Jews. So one or more Bochur(im) doing it in front of their friends would constitute a Chillul Hashem.June 28, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #882547
STAM drinking should be made assur in every beis medresh, and all drinking should be made assur in every high school.June 28, 2012 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #882548
In my apt. house in Yerushalayim a few blocks from a major yeshiva there are 3 dirahs rented to Bachurim form that Yeshiva. Every Shabbos morning when I leave at about 6:30 am to go daven, there are always 2 or 3 bachurim who all week long are wonderful, respectful seemingly well adjusted bachurim, but they get drunk on Leil Shabbos to the point where they cannot climb the steps to the dirah and they are sprawled in a corner of the entrance lobby. Yes, it’s nice they did not take the elevator on Shabbos………… but is this Torah? Is this what we have come to?? Should we condone or excuse this bahavior?
I do try to wake them up and help them upstairs because it is certainly not going to increase Kavod HaTorah if some Baal habatim, their wives and kal vachomer their daughters witness the scene as they leave for shule.June 28, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #882549
far east -“147- thats a little extreme dont you think. Nothing wrong with drinking occasionally as long as you control yourself and dont get wasted”
Well that’s not the opinion of the C.C. that I just quoted.
His first line is -“You should be careful not to drink a lot whether wine or liquor or other alcoholic drinks. Because it’s a Bad Middah Ad Meod and it could end his Guf till his Nefesh.”
If a Bochur drinks during the Shabbos Seudah a small cup is fine, but I don’t think the OP is talking about that!June 28, 2012 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #882550
@The little I know:
You are correct that by the time one becomes addicted to alcohol’s effects, there will be withdrawal symptoms if one attempts to stop cold turkey. But one drink is not a stepping stone to alcohol dependence the same way that one cigarette is to nicotine addiction.June 29, 2012 4:54 am at 4:54 am #882551
?? ??? ?? ????? ????June 29, 2012 6:39 am at 6:39 am #882552
health- “u should be careful not to drink a lot”
Notice how he says you should be CAREFUL not to drink a LOT. Does he say its assur anywhere? It may be an issue of ushmartem es nafsheichem, but then again so is drinking any unhealthy drinks such as soda.June 29, 2012 11:48 am at 11:48 am #882553
I think everyone needs to see the Chiluk between “drinking” and “getting drunk”. There are probably very few disagreements (aside from Purim) once we are clear about that.June 29, 2012 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #882554
No one gets to the 10th drink or cigarette until after they had the first.
If someone possesses the strength of character and judgment to stop after the first, then the first drink might not be an issue. I do not equate the first cigarette because of the conclusive research of the danger and damage. References available on that.
Generally, youth lack the ability of exerting the self control required to stop. Yes, they are young. Boys will be boys. That’s all true. It is not in vain that there are laws about minimum drinking age, and that these laws were originally written for age 18, then raised to 21.
It does take much less to establish the dependency to nicotine. And as long as the powerful motivators of peer pressure and social perceptions fuel either the smoking or imbibing, our young people will be oblivious to the negative consequences and risks, and will continue until there is trouble. It is not a small percentage, and our tendency to dismiss these as non-issues, or even as unimportant ones is dangerous. Our children’s health and lives are at stake.June 29, 2012 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #882555
“I guess Rava didn’t know the halacha about not drinking on Purim…”
Nobody can control themselves when they are drunk. You are probably refering to the ???? ????? ? which says ???? ????? ?????? ?????? – some ??????? learn that the story brought right after – of ??? and ?’ ???? having the ????? ????? together, and ?’ ???? chopped off ???’s head, killing him – some learn that the story is brought to
illustrate that the ???? is ???? and explaining the DANGERS of wine and why one shouldn’t get drunk, even on ?????. It is not the ???? of most ???????, but it does show you how dangerous drunkedness can be – even in front of other people, a massive ????? ??? and ??? ???? can’t control his actions.June 29, 2012 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #882556
@The little I know
i am not at all in favor of underage drinking or breaking the law but “it is not in vain that there are laws about minimum drinking age, and that these laws were originally written for age 18, then raised to 21.” really – who ever told you everything the government does is not in vain – so requiring 66 hours of driving practice before getting a license is not in vain? (the parallel is that both were designed to prevent traffic accident fatalities)it was actually done because this was a huge issue to women voters and was probably considered to be politically expedient at the time to do so. it was also based on common law which had people becoming adults at age 21 which is also not relevant to todays world.June 29, 2012 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #882557
RABBAIM: it is certainly not going to increase Kavod HaTorah if some Baal habatim, their wives and kal vachomer their daughters witness the scene as they leave for shule.
Maybe then our daughters will go for more mentchlich person, even if he is not cut out for learning, than a learning guy who drinks too much too often.
;June 29, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #882558
If drinking was assur, Rava wouldn’t have been drinking in the first place. Also, it was Rava who killed Rav Zeira, not the other way around. The story continues that Rava invited Rav Zeira again the next year (after he brought him back to life) and Rav Zeira declined, because we do not rely on miracles. That proves that Rava was going to drink again, although I am sure he would be more careful, Rav Zeira didn’t want to take the risk.
Writing in hebrew letters doesn’t add any credence to your argument when you are wrong, btw.June 29, 2012 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #882559
i’m a yeshiva bochur & yes there are those bochurim hat do get drunk. its ony yechidim who do it. the rosh yeshiva for sure doesnt like it and he speaks out against it but do u think that every bochur listens to everything the rosh yeshiva says? but he doesnt throw them out because they learn and its not a everyday thing. its absolutely wrong to get drunk every week but then again they are not bad kids and are having a little fun rather than smoking weed or hanging out with girls or going to the movies (which they would do had they been thrown out). so since i dont think any of you are daas torah you can leave it up to them to decide each bochur is thier own story.June 29, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #882560
far east -“Notice how he says you should be CAREFUL not to drink a LOT. Does he say its assur anywhere? It may be an issue of ushmartem es nafsheichem, but then again so is drinking any unhealthy drinks such as soda.”
He has a whole chapter on Drunkedness. Obviously I couldn’t quote the whole thing, but e/o should look it up themselves.
Yes, he does differentiate between drinking a lot and getting drunk.
Getting drunk -he says is Ossur. Drinking a lot -he says is a very Bad Middah.
Noone talked about “ushmartem es nafsheichem”. This is something you made up. I don’t think this would apply to drinking a lot once in awhile, just like it doesn’t apply to soda. But you can ask your LOR about this.
Getting back to the topic. The OP was talking about drunks and so was some other posters. This is clearly Ossur & a Chillul Hashem acc. to the C.C.
Even if your kid (or you) just drinks a lot, even on let’s say just Fri. nite, without getting drunk, this is a very bad Middah.
Do you want your kid(s) (or yourself) to have a very bad Middah?
I know I don’t!June 29, 2012 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #882561
Drinking is not assur. One needs to drink, if they choose to, in a manner that is consistent with Torah values. Getting drunk does not cut it. People who cannot handle alcohol should also not drink at all. Those who lack the maturity to drink responsibly should also not touch it. With these values in place, it becomes incumbent on those in charge to establish guidelines that are more specific. So laws that create a minimum drinking age make sense, though there are undoubtedly some older that cannot handle the decision of when to stop. And perhaps there are some younger who have that maturity. The question here is about yeshiva bochurim. In the long run, making something assur for a group because of the dangers to a smaller proportion of that group is sensible. Do all bochurim who drink get drunk or drink to excess? I’m sure the answer is no. But every yeshiva should establish a rule that is enforced with consistency that protects the population of bochurim. Not because “drinking” is assur, but because there is no way to insure safety if it was allowed.
As to the age of maturity, developmental psychologists have stopped considering 18 year olds adults. Many consider adolescence as ending at 20, some later than that. Then there is a new stage of “young adulthood”, and this extends even farther into the 20’s. I’m not beholden to any of these stage theories. But the position that children mature at 18 is long obsolete, at least in the field of psychology.June 29, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #882562
Mayan -True, but I would not want them to generalize and brush all Bnei Yeshiva with a broad stroke of drunkenness or lack of responsibility. The overwhelming vast majority are not abusing alcohol(or internet or drugs). There are thousands of solid Bnai Torah who are really living up to the title. I would hate that some impressionable girl be turned off by an unfortunate sight (ugh!) of a minority occurrence.June 29, 2012 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #882563
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ALSO, SPECIAL BACHURIM DISCOUNT OF 15% OFFJuly 2, 2012 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #882564
I dont really agree with this thread, but, read this:
11-Year-Old Becomes Intoxicated at Hachnasas Sefer Torah
(Monday, July 2nd, 2012)
An 11-year-old boy was transported to a hospital with a head injury on Sunday night. It is reported that the child drank a large quantity of alcohol at a hachnasas sefer torah and as a result, the boy fell and struck his head.
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