drinking on purim, teaching kids?

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  • #1056380

    first of all- i do apologize, i do not remember the source. i just remember this idea being ingrained in us in high school.

    2)i did say it was not halacha, i was just trying to show that we do change things because of yeridas hadoros. you must have missed that part.

    3)no i cannot think of one right now. give me time.

    4)ok- i hear that they do not say its because things changed. i was just saying that in this case with getting drunk, i can hear it making sense that it could be a possibility. And i was not calling the sefarim or chazal backwards chas v’shalom! i was calling the ppl who misinterpret it backwards. in fact, my father just read to me straight out of the kitzur shulchan aruch, siman 142, s’if 6 that one should get drunk to the point where he does not know the difference between arur haman and baruch mordechai. BUT, it explicitly points out that if this will cause a person to compromise on his doing the mitzvos hayom and it will compromise on his tefilla or brachos… and it will cause him to act with frivolity… one should NOT drink the wine. it says (a little before that) that if a person cannot drink enough to confuse them of the difference between arur haman and baruch mordechai, he should at least drink a little more than he is used to, and then go to sleep, b/c while sleeping, he also does not know the difference.

    and also, to reiterate what i said before, about my father and his rov not getting drunk- the rov actually has a rule in his shul against getting drunk, and he actually throws ppl out of the shul if they come in drunk.

    and with that, i am going to bed. i am so tired and i, of course, as well as most other ppl 🙂 have quite a busy week. we will have to continue this conversation another time. gnite all!

    #1056381

    PLONIALMONI4
    Member

    Truly unbelievable the time and energy being spent on this topic.

    At this point it would serve everyone much better to get some sleep in order to help their wives as much as possible to prepare for Yom Tov. I think that will have a better toeles than slinging shots back and forth.

    #1056382

    fedup11210:

    “it does not say that you should get drunk until you know nothing. It says that you should drink “ad dlo yadha bein arur haman and boruch mordechai!”

    You’re right. I meant to right “practically nothing”, as I think it’s fair to assume that one who doesn’t know the difference between boruch Mordechai and arur Haman doesn’t know too much else either.

    yummy cupcake:

    “it is so backward to think that chazal would want us to make ourselves sick and throw up and act so disgusting. i can’t stand when i see ppl like that on purim”

    Why do you consider this “backwards” and “disgusting”? Why can’t you stand seeing people like that? I would assume that the reason (and the reason for much of the opposition to drinking on Purim in general) is rooted almost entirely in modern Western culture that looks down upon drinking. But to judge a halacha as “backwards” and “disgusting” based upon outside values is absolutely wrong. Remember, today’s culture considers our approach to mishkav zachor to be “backwards” and “disgusting”, too… But does that mean we should change our views on the subject?!

    “and just as a side point- which really is not really a side point, but also very important- it is SUCH a chillul Hashem! what do you think goes though the minds of other ppl when they see drunken jews throwing up on every block?”

    Again, what do you think passes through the minds of the Goyim when they hear that we think mishkav zachor should be punishable by death? I doubt its very positive. Does that mean that make the issur of mishkav zachor a chillul Hashem?

    “does it make sense that that is what Hashem wants from us?”

    Does Hashem want us to follow the Halacha?

    Does the Halacha say to drink?

    I believe the answer to both of these questions is yes. And therefore, it is most certainly the ratzon Hashem that we drink on Purim. You may not understand it, you may not like it, but I don’t see how you can deny it.

    Sam2:

    “The Kanoi Next Door: So it’s a Kula to not get drunk?”

    Some hold you must get drunk on Purim, others hold you do not have to. Sounds like a kulah to me.

    Wolf:

    “Sorry, I’ve got too much to do on Purim to get drunk.”

    Are you too busy to listen to the Megilah? Or give shalach manos?

    yummy cupcake:

    “you should just be aware that there is drunk as in ranging from being a little high to being mildly drunk, then there is drunk as in more than mildly drunk to being grossly throwing up drunk. the first type i am ok with. the second type i am not.”

    Again, what you do or do not like to see has little bearing on what the halacha is.

    “and i don’t think that the rishonim/acharonim would be ok with it either if they saw to what degree many ppl do it.”

    Why do you assume that? The simplest reading of Gemora, Rambam, Rosh, Tor and Shulchan Oruch all seem to say that one must drink until you are very, very drunk.

    #1056383

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Just curious, if you get so drunk, what do you do about Davening Ma’ariv and Bentsching after the Se’uda?

    #1056384

    aproudbyg
    Participant

    I beleive the anwer is (after observing for many years , because i rememeber cause I dont drink!!!) most fall asleep before even thinking about it!!!!!

    #1056385

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    it has to do with our knowledge of the world changing. I could bring dozens of examples for things like that.

    You mean like Metzitzah B’peh? 😉

    I meant things which we are machmir because we no longer understand the world well enough to differentiate between things. Like that we are not ?????? ??? ???? ????, or when matza is mixed well enough that it has no flour left in it, etc.

    Not things like that we know pigs can be eaten safely, so we can eat pigs now and not do metzitza b’peh.

    Just curious, if you get so drunk, what do you do about Davening Ma’ariv and Bentsching after the Se’uda?

    Same thing chazal intended, and the mechaber intended, and gedolim and yirei Hashem did for thousands of years: I bentch and daven drunk.

    The story of Rav Yisroel continues, that when they klopped for borchu, he got up from under the table, and was able to control himself such that he was normal again. But mistama his talmidim weren’t.

    #1056386

    As Wolf said:

    “Its a mitzvah to be as drunk as possible on Purim.

    Completely and utterly false.

    Even if you subscribe to the opinion that one should get drunk on Purim, it’s only to the point of ad d’lo yada.

    There is no mitzvah to keep drinking to the point of getting physically sick or being unable to stand or perform any of the other mitzvos that need to be performed (such as davening Ma’ariv, for example).

    I am proud of the fact that I have never been drunk in my life — and that includes Purim.

    The Wolf”

    I only repeat and quote this. I completely stand behind this and fully agree with it. Also never been drunk in my life, and never intending to be.

    #1056387

    stuck
    Member

    Ad Dlo Yoda is a very high point of intoxication.

    #1056388

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: You think Chazal and the Mechaber intended for us to do something that is K’ilu being Oved Avodah Zarah?

    #1056389

    soliek
    Member

    You’re all off point. The point as i see it is not whether or not there is a mitzvah to drink, and if so how how much, but how the kids are seeing it. I don’t think kids that young are necessarily able to make the distinction between being drunk and being drunk on purim. The impression I would imagine they got, is that drinking is generally acceptable which it isn’t.

    #1056390

    the kanoi next door: you and popa seem to be misunderstanding me. I DID NOT SAY THAT CHAZAL IS BACKWARDS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. the people who interpret chazal incorrectly so they have an excuse to get sickly drunk ARE BACKWARDS. does that explain it better? look, say you were spiritually lost and looking for the truth. you chance upon a city/area on purim day only to find at least 5 jews on every block throwing up on their porches. would you stop and say “oh how beautiful- wish i could be one of them!” i think not.

    mishkav zachor is a totally different issue. it is a beautiful diamond of a mitzvah that the goyim have ruined and dirtied. so they look down upon because they don’t know what the true and spiritual beauty of it is. it’s sad. i know. but it can’t compare to drinking because there is nothing spiritually beautiful about throwing up all over the place and acting out of control and not b’taam hatorah. no matter how you look at it, THAT IS NOT TRUE BEAUTY. TO ANYONE. i will say again, getting a little drunk is fine- as long as it is still within the parameters of acting like a good frum yid. but once it goes beyond that, it takes the beauty out of the mitzvah. that should have answered all of your questions above. yes the mitzvah is to drink. but give me one source where it says “yidden should drink so much that they are sick to the stomach, start throwing up all over the place, and acting out of control and very inappropriately…” find me one source. that’s all i ask. then we’ll talk.

    #1056391

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: You think Chazal and the Mechaber intended for us to do something that is K’ilu being Oved Avodah Zarah?

    Yes. I do think so. As many of the poskim explicitly hold. And as you admitted Rav Yisroel held.

    For an explanation of why chazal did this, I once saw an essay in the sefer ???? ???????? by Rav Dovid Leibowitz, who was a talmid of slabodka and founded yeshiva chofetz chaim.

    #1056392

    gefen
    Participant

    Yummy, Wolf, and Chasiddishe Gatesheader: I agree with you guys totally!!!! Good for you. Keep it up. Stand up for what’s right!!!

    Yummy – I’m proud of you 😉

    #1056393

    shmoel
    Member

    yummy: Halacha says it is an obligation to get stone drunk on Purim. Yes, halacha says that in black and white. Current halacha. Like Shulchan Aruch. What’s so hard to understand?

    soliek: All the doros managed and we do too, with that.

    #1056394

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yummy: No, it isn’t really better. You cannot sit and say that people who interpret the shulchan aruch and other poskim who say to get totally drunk are backwards. You are simply incorrect–it is exactly what they meant.

    And it is not relevant what the kitzur shulchan aruch says, because I am not trying to convince you that we paskin to get drunk–just that it is a completely valid opinion in the poskim.

    I am aware of the poskim who say to not get drunk. And you could also sit down and read poskim who say you should get drunk.

    You cannot sit and choose between poskim and call some “backwards”. The shulchan aruch interpreted chazal to mean that we should get drunk. He was not backwards. You can ask your rav how he paskins, but you cannot call the other opinion backwards. That is not legitimate.

    #1056395

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Are you too busy to listen to the Megilah? Or give shalach manos?

    Oh, please.

    Firstly, I don’t believe that getting drunk is a mitzvah equal to the other mitzvos of the day. So, the other mitzvos (such as the ones you mentioned) take precedence. In addition, I believe the mitzvah of davening Ma’ariv (in a sober state) also takes precedence.

    In addition, I don’t really wish to discuss it here, but suffice to say, I’m sure that if you ask any rav to decide whether I should get drunk on Purim or engage in the activities that I do that they would say that I should engage in my activities rather than get drunk.

    You’re under no obligation to believe me, of course… but I’m also under no obligation to listen to you. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1056396

    Health
    Participant

    stuck -“Ad Dlo Yoda is a very high point of intoxication.”

    This is something you made up, but has no basis to it. I have no opinion in the argument here. But I do think that it’s disgusting to throw up in public. That said – I do get drunk or high every year. I remember many moons ago when I was in high school a Rebbe told us, esp. since kids tend to over drink, that you aren’t a Mentch if you don’t carry a plastic bag with you on Purim. His words still ring true today.

    As a matter of fact -it can’t be Ad Dlo Yoda is very high because at a certain point drinking becomes a Sakana. Chazal would never make a Chiyuv that comes close to a Sakana!

    You want to get drunk -fine – I do. But you want to drink and act like a Behaima & vomit all over the place & blame the Halacha -this doesn’t wash. Yes, when I was a kid there where a few of these -nowadays it seems there are a lot more. Maybe because the Frum community has grown by leaps and bounds – so it seems more.

    YC is right and you need to apologize.

    #1056397

    stuck
    Member

    Ad Dlo Yoda means you are so stone drunk, you dont know the blazing difference between Arrur Haman and Baruch Mordechai. That means highly intoxicated.

    And you are obligated to reach that state on Purim.

    (Some people look for an excuse to not get drunk, so they might pick and choose a more kula’dik opinion that allows them to not get drunk, even though Shulchan Aruch says to get drunk.)

    #1056398

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I don’t know what R’ Yisroel held by Davening drunk. All you have is a story. We don’t Pasken from stories, and certainly not from second- (or fifth-) hand accounts. The only major Posek I have seen explicitly Mattir Davening drunk on Purim is Rav Kook.

    #1056399

    soliek
    Member

    I was just saying that the discussion whether or not getting stone drunk is mutar, is completely irrelevant to what i think should be the point of the thread.

    #1056400

    popa: i’m still waiting for you to quote where in shulchan aruch it writes that you should get so drunk that you should get sick to your stomach and throw up, compromise on the other mitzvos, act out of control and inappropriately, and cause chillul Hashem.

    and why do you keep misinterpreting what i say? to get drunk is ok. go dance in the streets, show ur simcha… but what i describe above, is disgusting.

    #1056401

    stuck
    Member

    The Shulchan Aruch says to get stone drunk (ad dlo yoda).

    #1056402

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa: i’m still waiting for you to quote where in shulchan aruch it writes that you should get so drunk that you should get sick to your stomach and throw up, compromise on the other mitzvos, act out of control and inappropriately, and cause chillul Hashem.

    It says ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. Hardly ambiguous.

    You can see that it is literal, since the rema disagrees and says one does not need to get that drunk, but rather need only get drunk the way you suggest.

    and why do you keep misinterpreting what i say? to get drunk is ok. go dance in the streets, show ur simcha… but what i describe above, is disgusting.

    I’m not misinterpreting. I am saying that many poskim and the shulchan aruch say to get drunk in the manner which is disgusting. That is, throwing up, completely oblivious to reality, etc.

    #1056403

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: And why do you think the Shulchan Aruch disagrees with the Beis Yosef?

    #1056404

    maybe i’m missing it. you quoted to me what my father read to me from shulchan aruch. nothin’ about throwing up and acting in a horrifying way. so how do you say shulchan aruch says to get sickly drunk, if what you just quoted does not specifically say that?

    #1056405

    shmoel
    Member

    YC: PBA is correct. The S”A does say until you are so crazy drunk you can’t even tell the difference between blessing Mordechai or cursing Haman.

    #1056406

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yummy: I’m not sure how to respond to that. It says to drink until you don’t understand the difference between blessed is mordechai and cursed is haman. That seems to be a way of saying an extreme level of drunkenness.

    In fact, the ran says that it really means that you don’t understand the difference between ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????, because just haman and mordechai is impossible to drink enough to get that drunk.

    Sam: The Beis yosef says: ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? (?:) ????? ??????? (?”? ???) ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??”? (?: ?”? ??’) ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??”? (??) ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ????? (??) ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???: ???? ?????? ???? (??’ ????? ??? ??) ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???

    Then, he himself writes in the shulchan aruch: ???? ???? ?????? ?????? * ?? ??? ??? (?) ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????.

    Reading the beis yosef, it is not clear how he is paskening. The beis yosef brings different opinions. I think it is fair to say the shulchan aruch accepts the one which he codified by itself. I think it is fair to say he intended the shulchan aruch to be read by itself without reference to other opinions he had brought in the beis yosef.

    Have you ever seen anyone assuming the shulchan aruch himself did not paskin like something he says explicitly, because he had brought both opinions in the beis yosef? I have never seen this, and my semicha covered 280 blatt of shulchan aruch.

    #1056407

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And what do you know? Aruch hashulchan asks this question:

    ???? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ??”? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??”? [????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???]:

    #1056408

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Here is the bach. I will quote and then explain.

    ? ????? ?????? ???’. ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ???? (???? ? ??? ? ?”? ?”? ????) ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? (????? ??’ ?) ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??”?:

    ?????”? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??’ ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????????? (?”? ??”? ??? ?) ??? ??? ????”? (??”? ????) ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????”? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???”?:

    So he starts with tosfos and the ran. They hold that it is almost impossible to get drunk enough to really not know between haman and mordechai, so they say it is a bit less until you don’t know the whole line about esther and zeresh, etc. Which is still pretty drunk.

    Bach rejects that. Bach says that the pashtus of the gemara is that you must literally get drunk enough until ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???. Until it is almost as drunk as ??? who did not know what his daughters were doing. Shikruso shel lot is patur from all mitzvos. It is drunker than I have ever been in my life, even on any purim.

    Now, Bach himself ultimately rejects the gemara as not being the halacha, and reads the story in the gemara as retracting the halacha. But, anyone who does hold of the gemara (like the Mechaber), would then hold you must get drunk almost like shikruso shel lot.

    And here is the elya rabba, explaining why we must do it, even though it is disgusting and usually frowned upon:

    ?????? ???’. ??”? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????, ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?”? ????, ?? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ???, ???? ????? ????? ?????? (??) ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????, ??”? ?????? ????”? ??’ ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????:

    And here is the Shaarei teshuva:

    ???? – ???”? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???’ ????? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ????? (?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????) ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ??”?, ??????? ??”? ???”? ??? ?”? ?’ ????? ?? ????? ?”? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ?????’ ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??’ ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????:

    Notice how he brings the siddur amudei shamayim, who says that his father used to do the gemara like the pashtus, when he was young and strong.

    #1056409

    Sam2:

    Yummy cupcake:

    Actually, there is a very real interpretation of Chazal that says that not only does one have an excuse to get sickly drunk, but that one is obligated to do so. This is the interpretation of a radical, extreme sefer called the Shulchan Oruch.

    That could very well be. However, we do not change the Halacha in the interests of PR.

    How about the Shulchan Oruch?

    Wolf:

    Why do you say that?

    Health:

    #1056410

    oops i read it as mishkav zerah. that’s what i thought he meant. i do not condone homosexuality or think it is spiritual. sorry.

    #1056411

    peoples i am too tired to keep repeating the same things over and over again, so with this post, i end my part of the discussion here, still unhappy with the outcome, but too tired to continue.

    #1056412

    Sam2
    Participant

    Kanoi: Davening drunk is K’ilu Oved Avodah Zarah.

    And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.

    #1056413

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    peoples i am too tired to keep repeating the same things over and over again, so with this post, i end my part of the discussion here, still unhappy with the outcome, but too tired to continue.

    It was just getting interesting.

    #1056414

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.

    Agreed. And that is the mitzva according to the mechaber, nonetheless.

    In my yeshiva, they had hatzala all over the place.

    It isn’t so surprising; when something is important, you can accept some danger. At the marathon, they also have ambulances standing by.

    #1056415

    mr. gayva
    Member

    Drinking to that extent may be assur so why take that risk. you are risking doing a very serious laav De’oraisa and for what? yes it is a mitzva to get drunk, but not to the extent that it will cause you to do things you will regret. that argument between the kids is an embarrassment.

    #1056416

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.”

    “Agreed. And that is the mitzva according to the mechaber, nonetheless.

    In my yeshiva, they had hatzala all over the place.”

    For them it wasn’t. Nowadays there is no Heter to get that drunk. You and others here have made that up!

    #1056417

    BYbychoice
    Member

    Here is my question, doe any of these sefarim or rebbaim say that it is ok to make a chillul Hashem out of something that is supposed to be a mitzvah? Is it ok to teach children that you can do a mitzvah but change it to make it the way they want to do it?

    #1056418

    gefen
    Participant

    I tried searching for a thread that was on here around Purim time but couldn’t find it. But maybe some of you remember reading it. It was written by a bochur telling his story of what happened to him last year. He was going around collecting for his yeshiva. At each house he had some drinks. He didn’t even realize he was getting drunk. In fact he thought he was really holding his liquor well… until he passed out. When he awoke, he was in the hospital. His mother crying and his father saying Tehilim. Bottom line – the doctors told him he was very lucky to have survived. Had he not been brought to the hospital when he was, he would have chas v’shalom died. He wrote his story as a warning to others. NOW IF THAT’S NOT A WAKE UP CALL FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ADVOCATE GETTING SO WASTED, THEN THERE’S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY TO YOU..

    Wolf – the thread that was recently started about you was well deserved. You really post with seichel.

    #1056419

    BYbychoice
    Member

    That is a wake up call, thanks for sharing!!! and i agree with u on wolf, they do answer great!!!

    #1056420

    Health
    Participant

    gefen -That actually wasn’t a thread but it was in the news section. When you use the search option which is linked from the main CR page -search in news, not in CR.

    #1056421

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – I don’t believe you can admit that there are valid opinions in Halacha that say you must get drunk.

    You don’t want to – fine, but that doesn’t make the rest of us wrong. And because some do whatever they want when they are drunk, eg. puking all over the place, some of us don’t. So don’t bring any Rayos from that!

    #1056422

    my way
    Member

    A choshuv Rav in my city announced before Purim about the mitzva to drink on Purim ad delo yada. He said, “it is specifically regarding drinking that Chazal say, that if not done with the correct intentions, it is an aveira. That’s not to take away that if done leshem shamayim, it is a mitzva.”

    The well known vort about Purim, that Yom Kippur is KIpurim (LIKE Purim), was born from this idea: From the way yummy cupcake interprets it, it seems the ultimate level for a person is that he should restrict himself leshem shamayim. However, according to this idea, the ultimate level, is actually when one can bring himself to that same madrega of Yom Kippur, but through enjoying the physical mitzvos (i.e. pleasures) of Purim.

    #1056423

    midwesterner
    Participant

    I think the theme of many of the responses is two things: One, does everything our ‘outdated’ Chazal (chas veshalom) determined for us still hold true even in the 21st Century. Second, if we don’t understand something our Gedolim (of past and present) institute, are we obligated to accept it.

    There are many sources for reasons to drink on Purim, and even to get as drunk as some may consider to be ‘gross’.

    #1056424

    my way, i didn’t mean to totally restrict oneself. i just think that once you go overboard, its not l’shem Shamayim anymore.

    #1056425

    Health
    Participant

    midwesterner -“There are many sources for reasons to drink on Purim, and even to get as drunk as some may consider to be ‘gross’.”

    “Many sources” – name one on the second half of your sentence!

    And the story with R’ Salanter isn’t one of them. Rolling around on the floor isn’t “gross”!

    #1056426

    aproudbyg
    Participant

    yummy cupcake- i agree with u,i beleive it is not only not leshem shamayim but is infact a chilal Hashem! This is know way to show our Father we love Him.

    #1056427

    The little I know
    Participant

    Here’s a simple challenge.

    Can anyone state clearly and sincerely that their drinking on Purim is only to fulfill the mitzvah, and absolutely not to experience the mind-altering effects of alcohol? If it is not leshem mitzvah, I have no doubt that it is antithetical to avodas Hashem, and is the aveiro that Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky described. Purim is not a heter to let loose with shikrus. It is disgraceful to interpret Chazal that way. Chayav inish l’ivsumai is a positive mitzvah, not a dismantling of the prohibitions against shikrus.

    #1056428

    shmoel
    Member

    I strictly follow Shulchan Aruch L’shem Shamayim to get stone drunk on Purim.

    I wonder if the people that DON’T get stone drunk are not getting drunk l’shem shamayim or they are simply afraid of fulfilling the obligation and mitzvah to get stone drunk and are thus looking for excuses and kulas to not get stone drunk.

    If they would at least get plain drunk, even if it wasn’t stone drunk, I might be able to understand. But if they don’t get drunk AT ALL on Purim, they are likely just looking for an excuse to not fulfil their OBLIGATION and MITZVAH to get drunk.

    #1056429

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Can anyone state clearly and sincerely that their drinking on Purim is only to fulfill the mitzvah, and absolutely not to experience the mind-altering effects of alcohol? If it is not leshem mitzvah, I have no doubt that it is antithetical to avodas Hashem, and is the aveiro that Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky described. Purim is not a heter to let loose with shikrus. It is disgraceful to interpret Chazal that way. Chayav inish l’ivsumai is a positive mitzvah, not a dismantling of the prohibitions against shikrus.

    I think your question, is your answer. You asset that nobody is able to drink on purim the way you think chazal meant.

    Well, chazal must have meant something. So actually, what is possible for people to do, is probably what they meant.

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