January 24, 2017 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1212493–Participant
Family relationships can be complicated. I know of someone who was a BT and had a brother who was going to get intermarried. her mother told her she had better be at that wedding or she was going to get cut off
So did Donald threaten to cut off Ivanka if Jared wasn’t Mesader Kidushin for Eric and Lara?January 24, 2017 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1212494
While I would like to brag that I was friends with Jared Kushner. Alas I cannot make that statement. Unfortuantly I have never met themJanuary 24, 2017 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1212495
“May Hashem grant Mrs. CTL a refuah sheleima and may He bring American Jewry home in a good way.”
Amen!January 24, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1212496iacisrmmaParticipant
Rabbi Abramowitz of the OU has written an article on “heter” to be driven on shabbos. You may want to read it. You can find it on the OU’s website.January 25, 2017 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1212497
Thank you, Iacisrmma.
I think the problem is that people are not differentiating between Frum and Orthodox. If someone is Orthodox, that does not mean that they are Frum.
There is no reason why anyone should be holding Jared and Ivanka up as role models for Frum living. They certainly never claimed to be. As Ivanka says, “We are fairly observant. There are some who are more and others who are lesss”
It would be one thing if they were going around announcing that according to halacha it is mutar to put oneself in a pikuach nefesh situation and then get a ride on Shabbos.
They did no such thing. As far as I know they said nothing at all about why they did this.January 25, 2017 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1212498LightbriteParticipant
Must say that I am grateful to live in America. Grateful to even be allowed to have this public conversation. Such things are not possible in many nations.
So yea. Just went to a shiur on Va’eira. Learned how we’re even supposed to be grateful to Egypt, which gave us food and water when we were hungry and thirsty. How important it is to look at the good. And give thanks for the good.
So thank you to Ivanka and Jared for making Shabbat a household term, and bringing light to Judaism.January 25, 2017 6:38 am at 6:38 am #1212499☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Rabbi Abramowitz of the OU has written an article on “heter” to be driven on shabbos. You may want to read it. You can find it on the OU’s website.
Thank you, that was interesting.
I thoroughly disagree with him, even more about the chillul Hashem aspect than about the halachah aspect.January 25, 2017 7:03 am at 7:03 am #1212500
I didn’t agree with everything he said either, but I thought there were some good points.January 25, 2017 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1212501
Lilmod, there are also frum people who are not orthodox. Rather they are orthoprax but do not believe. Why do they keep mitzvot? To avoid problems with their friends and families, because the community is a safe space, etc. For that matter, what about someone who is glatt kosher but not glatt yosher? What about people who are careful about what goes into their mouths but not what comes out (the Chafetz Chaim complained about this).January 25, 2017 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1212502
I read it as well and Ive also read non-jewish sources as well.
After reading the sources and the comments, I suspect the biggest problem has been that they are related to Trump and alot of people dont like Trump and channel their anger towards Ivanka and Jared. Alot of those people do not like religion either and are using this as “religon is phony” and those same people if they had not gone would have said “Religon is more important that their fathers becoming president, What extremists they are”. There is no argument for them.January 25, 2017 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1212503
Well, Zdad, while you’re probably correct in general, I don’t think this is the case here in the CR. People generally care, and for good reason. Shabbos observance is for the most part black and white. And it’s seems they made a mockery out of it, and publicly.
I actually voted for Trump (I’m in NY so it was more of a spur of the moment decision, and didn’t have a chance of actually mattering) and didn’t complain when Jared attended a campaign meeting with Trump on Shabbos as it could have been easily argued away as no big deal, especially since I wasn’t privy to any details of how he conducted himself at said meeting.
These two issues were much more blatant and both (the church and car riding) effect major tenets of Yiddishkeit. Lines were crossed apparently to “fit in” and be part of the success & partying. Jews have held strong for the sake of Shabbos while sacrificing much more, and those that didn’t unfortunately for the most part fell away. That’s why Zdad you are frum today while most of those who’s ancestors immigrated at that time, their grandkids have assimilated.January 25, 2017 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1212504
“If someone is Orthodox”that means at the minimum they adhere to Shabbos !
unless they’re culturally Orthodox or legacy OrthodoxJanuary 25, 2017 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1212505
just a couple of weeks ago, there were emails like these:
Viceroy of the Week–Special “Second Only To Pharoah In All The Land” editionJanuary 25, 2017 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1212506
(“Where shall we find another man as wise as this one? Let us set him in charge…”)
(“And Pharoah gave him as a wife…”)
Anyone else think all of this is spooky?
People are being disabusedJanuary 25, 2017 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1212507
The Chafetz Chaim
also said Shabbos is like a Store SHingle .it announces if your Religion is open for businessJanuary 25, 2017 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1212509iacisrmmaParticipant
The Rav of my shul looked at this issue from a different perspective. Does a ger/giyores still have a mitzvah of kibbud av vaeim? Do we know what happened in the private conversations between the President and his daughter and SIL? No, we don’t. So before we say why did they put themselves into a possible situation where they may need to be driven on shabbos, we would need to know answers to many other questions. Hopefully all those questions and answers were told over to whomever they spoke to.January 25, 2017 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1212510
Was Zdad’s last post removed? And why?January 25, 2017 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1212511
I removed the last post because it could have been misinterpretedJanuary 25, 2017 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1212512
Moderators – If ZD’s post was removed, then I wonder if the post commenting on it should be removed? I thought the comment was referring to the post that is there so I was confused.
ZD – thank you for clarifying.January 25, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1212513
Iacisrmma +1January 25, 2017 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1212514mw13Participant
Does a ger/giyores still have a mitzvah of kibbud av vaeim?
Kibbud Av vi’Eim does not permit chillul Shabbos.
:????? ? ?”?
???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ?”? “??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??” (????? ??, ?) – ????? ?????? ??????January 26, 2017 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1212515
mw13 – of course kibud av v’eim doesn’t permit chillul Shabbos. I’m sure that both Iacisrmma and his/her Rav are very well aware of that. I understood the point to be that there may be many factors that we are unaware of that were “mitztareif” in the psak given, if in fact there was a psak.January 26, 2017 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1212519
Lightbrite, America is galut. If you cannot live in Israel you should be sad.
Iacisrmma, a ger/giuret has the mitzva of kibbud av v’em for two reasons:
1. It would be a chillul Hashem not to owner them.
2. There is a mitzva to show gratitude for bringing one into the world.
As for putting themselves into a situation where they would have to do a relatively light violation, as I previously posted, why not ask why someone should be a doctor, nurse, paramedic, police officer, etc.?January 26, 2017 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1212520
Avi K. – When someone becomes a doctor,etc, he is not creating the Pikuach nefesh situation – the pikuach nefesh situation is already there.January 27, 2017 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1212521
Lilmod, why not let someone else do it? In any case, Jared Kushner did not become the President’s son-in-law. He became a businessman’s son-in-law. Hashem then made the latter POTUS in an open miracle. Ivanka certainly did not volunteer to be Trump’s daughter.January 27, 2017 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1212522mw13Participant
It’s hard for me to imagine that something the Gemora explicitly says to be incorrect (based on a Passuk, no less) can be used as even a tznif li’hakel in any situation.January 27, 2017 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1212523yehudayonaParticipant
Avi K, “open miracle?” Agagagag!January 27, 2017 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1212524
Vashti was punished for making Jewish girls work on Shabbos. Which put the whole nes Purim in motion. Just sayin…
Avi: if you truly believe Trump’s win was a miracle, show a little bitachon that even if the Kushners held fast to their beliefs instead of “compromising”, their status and potential to do good would not have been diminished. Au contraire.January 28, 2017 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1212525
Yehudayona, right up to the election it seemed certain that Hillary would win. This would have been a black day for Israeland all traditionally religious Americans.
Mammele, they did hold fast to their beliefs. They asked a shaila and acted accordingly. IMHO their rav acted on solid halachic grounds as I previously posted.Bitachon does not, as the Chazon Ish says, mean standing in the middle of a highway and believing that you will not be hit by a car. It means that if you do your hishtadlut after something happens you havefaith that it was for the best.January 29, 2017 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1212526
Avi K: most of us wouldn’t have asked, because we’re not looking for a heter. A Sheila is asked when a) one is truly unaware what the Halacha is or b) there are extenuating circumstances that necessitate a heter or more permissible course of action than a direct Halachik violation. Here’s where we see things differently — I don’t think attending a party or church to celebrate the President’s victory was an extenuating circumstance. Mr. Trump had many Orthodox Jews working for him, and from all accounts I’ve read, he NEVER made them work on Shabbos or even a three day Yom Tov when in the middle of working on an important deal. So all those scare mongering about them pleasing the President or face serious retribution is nonsense. He has Kushner to thank for his win, whether he attended those parties or not.
And your hishtadlus comparison is not at all accurate. Also, I was discussing the church issue as well, and no one mentioned anything about a shaila there. And finally, some Rabbis are so much more lenient than others (assuming it was asked in a fair manner) and shouldn’t be deemed Orthodox.January 29, 2017 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1212527
Mammale, on the assumption that you are female would you have been machmir on not going to the hospital in an ambulance if you went into labor on Shabbat?
Tell me, when you wake up in the morning do you say “Mirror, mirror on the wall. Who is the frummest of them all?” Rabbi Pinchas ben Yair said about the donkey who would not eat non-tithed food even though it was exempt “????? ?????”.
As for the church issue, while I have reservations I can also see the other side. As I previously posted, there are heterim for someone who is karove lamalchut as these are rabbinic prohibitions.January 29, 2017 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1212528yehudayonaParticipant
IMHO, it would have been a black day if either one of the two deplorable candidates had won. It would have been an open miracle if someone else would have won.January 29, 2017 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1212529
Kudos to Rabbi Shemtov and the Kushners for thisJanuary 29, 2017 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1212530
depending on your community, you might not even be in a position where it is an issue.
If you are chassidic , you likely married into another chassidic family and such issues would not likely occur. People are more homogenenus
Before praising the shidduch system, You are going to leave people out who are converts and BT’s. A Rav who was asked would likely know these factors. Before saying “Most of us would not want a heter” most would not marry a BT or a convert either where such issues are more likely to come up. Family relationships are more complicated when there are BT’s and converts (Doesnt mean they are bad, just more complex and those issues can usually be worked out)January 29, 2017 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1212531
Do you have an different phrase for yetzias mitzraim or the collapse of the walls of jericho?
Calling it an ‘Open Miracle’ is a desecration and treading on dangerous waterJanuary 29, 2017 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1212532
ZD – +1. I don’t think they can be blamed for looking for a heter.January 29, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1212533
Avi K: I was very clear that extenuating circumstances can necessitate a heter, and in the case of giving birth the Halacha has been made clear by our Rabbis, so no need to even ask when it comes to it or possible pekuach nefesh.
Kurov Lmalchus was not applied cavalierly in the past, more likely if there is something to that effect it’s because the King had unchecked rights to behead anyone that defies him. We are not dealing with this now.
And the fact that the desecration was done publicly usually makes for more stringent application than the norm because of maras ayin.January 29, 2017 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1212534
ZD – +1. I don’t think they can be blamed for looking for a heter.
I had to do a double take on that one, I dont think you have ever agreed with me beforeJanuary 29, 2017 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1212535
That is not true! I think there were other times when I agreed with you. And, I remember very recently that you actually quoted me 🙂 (come to think of it, it was in this very thread).January 29, 2017 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1212536
Just to clarify, asking a shaila is never the wrong thing. I’m not “faulting” them for it, just saddened. I would have been (and I believe even Avi K and most of us here) happier if they didn’t and stayed home, without even questioning if going to a party overrides the sanctity of Shabbos.
Some frum politicians with invitations to the Inauguration opted out because of Shabbos, and it could have been done within the parameters of Halacha, but it was simpler not to go than stay over for Shabbos or risk tight scheduling. We all have priorities and I wish Shabbos observance in the fullest sense was a priority for them.
That’s why I mentioned kudos to them for hosting a Shabbos seudah Friday night. I got zero response here, either because it was overlooked, or because many of us would prefer they be regular, consistent Shabbos observers without all the glitz being necessary. I don’t know, perhaps you guys can enlighten me.January 29, 2017 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1212537
ZD, btw, I actually try to make a point of finding points of agreement amongst those with whom I usually disagree.January 29, 2017 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1212538
1. Karove lamalchut was used so that the ruling elite would respect the Jew. For example, court Jews were allowed to dress and cut their hair like gentiles despite the prohibition of “bechukoteihem” (the chachamim were allowed to set the parameters). See ????? ???? ??????? ?????? by Rav Yehuda Zoldan on the Bet-el yeshiva website (this is a wider version and discusses going into a church). As for those politicians who opted out of the Inaugurtion, it was for the explicit purpose of snubbing Trump as they are in denial about his election. This would have made the Kushners’ absence an even greater subject for the pundits.January 29, 2017 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1212539LightbriteParticipant
How come no one here invited the Kushners and Trump for Shabbos that weekend?
Did anyone offer them accommodations, including space for the Secret Service?
Next time, Hashem-helping, one can organize a big Shabbos, if need be, that would include everyone and all of the details.
Serious questions because if it’s really an issue that concerns us, then why didn’t we offer our help to fellow Jews?
Instead of offering solutions, we’re going back and forth about what happened.
The Kushners may not be the last Jews to publicly be in such a debacle. So let’s plan for next time, if need be, b’esrat Hashem.
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