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I am still a teenager but I don’t know any greasy yeshiva bochur personally.
That’s good. Considering you are a girl.
And I’m a little put off by you calling them that.
There is a simple way to stop smoking in the yeshivos: girls should refuse any shidduchim with guys that smoke.
edited
There is a simple way to stop smoking in the yeshivos: girls should refuse any shidduchim with guys that smoke.
What an original idea. No frum girl has ever refused a shidduch with a boy who smoked.
RebDoniel- with the current state of affairs in the “shidduch market” i can’t imagine girls turning down guys en mass like that.
Torah613Torah -“What an original idea. No frum girl has ever refused a shidduch with a boy who smoked.”
He didn’t mean a few -they ALL should.
Ender -“RebDoniel- with the current state of affairs in the “shidduch market” i can’t imagine girls turning down guys en mass like that.”
This is one of the few times I agree with Doniel -they should all reject such Shidduchim. It seems that there are many girls rejecting Shidduchim if the guy is on the Net and/or watching TV or movies, but there aren’t that many rejecting smokers.
Perhaps it’s because noone realizes the spiritual dangers of smoking, but I just heard that they are having another Asifa in Lakewood against the Net next week because it’s the Yohrzeit of Citifield.
the spiritual dangers of smoking
Please explain.
the spiritual dangers of smoking
Please explain.
Do we need to explain the spiritual dangers of suicide? U’shmartem is just as much a mitzva as any other, if not more (as it is Doche most other mitzvos). Furthermore, secondhand smoke kills as well, so there is Retzicha involved.
Seriously, if someone had to choose between a ham sandwich & their first smoke (not skipping a single smoke, as that would be a different question), hypothetically (and I am not a Rabbi!) I would imagine halacha would say they should eat the ham.
“Obviously you know nothing about the reality in the US. People are flaunting Pot use and claiming medical necessity. I didn’t write the States should have to pass the same law -I wrote they shouldn’t be allowed to pass laws legalizing it -if this isn’t outlawed already by Federal law.”
YOU don’t understand reality in the US. States can repeal their own laws prohibiting marijuana use, but it remains a Schedule I Controlled Substance under federal law. Conservatives would consider this to be an improper expansion of federal power, but the courts have upheld such laws. That the federal government does not prosecute simple marijuana possession cases does not change its legal status.
“Also, the cops aren’t enforcing federal Pot laws -only following State laws. Since when does law enforcement only involve themselves with State laws?”
Since the US Constitution was enacted in 1788. State and local government law enforcement officials have no power to enforce federal law unless they make a specific agreement with the federal government for the specific federal law.
‘ There was this show on “Cops” recently where the Cops helped some people get back their Pot plants because Pot is legal for “medical” use.’
They were simply following the law in that state. The federal government, as I pointed out, chooses not to prosecute simple marijuana possession because it doesn’t have the resources. Do you think that law enforcement officials should not follow the law? And how large a tax increase would you support in order to enable the federal government to strictly enforce the marijuana laws? New York State used to strictly enforce them; all it did was to create a lot of jobs for unionized corrections officers.
” This is what this country has come to, whether you’re in denial or Not! It makes more sense for them to allow people to grow and smoke opium – because this plant has more medical necessity than Weed!”
Many opiates are legal prescription drugs.
“While there is likely some drug use/abuse in almost any yeshiva, and the Roshei Yeshiva are aware of the possibility, the yeshivas I am familiar with would not condone such behavior nor would they allow to come to a situation where there is massive drug use!!!”
It is actually a mix. Some RYs are actually very concerned and have sponsored drug abuse programs; others seem to live in terror that the parents who pay the bills, who think that by sending their kids to a Jewish school they will insure that their kids will avoid negative influences, will find out that there is drug use in the school. And few if any can know what kids are doing when they aren’t being watched. It isn’t condoning, it is denial and lack of knowledge.
Ender and Health – nearly every girl I know (and I know a lot of girls) do and will turn down a guy who currently smokes. Nothing to do with the shidduch crisis.
There are certainly worse vices, but smoking rates pretty high. It shows a lack of foresight, it’s unhealthy, it’s expensive, and it smells. You want your husband to be alive to take care of you and the family. The very few girls willing to date smokers are usually from families where the father/brother smokes, or have other issues that they feel the need to compromise on this.
One Purim I was at a yeshiva and I saw off to the side a few Bochrim rolling a few joints
It was not my yeshiva so I told my friend who was a bocher there and showed him the boys rolling.
He then went to the Rosh yeshiva and told them what he saw. Unfortuantly it was Purim and the R’Y had already began celebrating and was not in a position to stop them. He unfortuatnly did nothing because it was Purim.
charliehall -“YOU don’t understand reality in the US. States can repeal their own laws prohibiting marijuana use,”
Again you missed my point. They just didn’t repeal the whole law. Legalizing “medical” pot only, instead of all pot encourages people to break the law. This should be illegal, acc. to federal law, to make such a law -if it isn’t already.
“State and local government law enforcement officials have no power to enforce federal law unless they make a specific agreement with the federal government for the specific federal law.””They were simply following the law in that state.”
Funny, the NYPD has a terrrorist task force. As far as I know there is No city law outlawing terrorism – Nor did any federal agency give them permission to investigate possible terrorists on their own, only to be part of the JTTF. How could they waste taxpayers money on enforcing federal law?
Enough with your double talk. Police Depts. can enforce Federal law if they choose to, but by Pot they seem unwilling to. This is corruption at the Local and State levels of Gov., whether you admit it or Not!
“Many opiates are legal prescription drugs.”
Really? So with a Script -I can plant and grow Opium and I won’t be breaking any law like I can with Pot? I don’t think so!
Torah613Torah -“Ender and Health – nearly every girl I know (and I know a lot of girls) do and will turn down a guy who currently smokes. Nothing to do with the shidduch crisis.”
Seems to me that your friends are Not all the girls in the world.
As far as I know all the smokers in Yeshiva get married and usually in their Twenties. All the guys left behind in the thirties and forties and older, even though I don’t know all of them, but most of them are Not smokers. And since 95% of Frum single males are in Lakewood, I’d assume my statistics are more accurate than yours.
“The very few girls willing to date smokers are usually from families where the father/brother smokes, or have other issues that they feel the need to compromise on this.”
I can’t prove that you’re wrong, but it sure can’t be just “very few girls” because all the smokers are getting married, at least almost all.
Health: Many boys quit smoking for shidduchim, or when they get engaged. Or at least they claim to. Sometimes it’s true and sometimes it isn’t.
Charlie:
Yes, many opiates are prescription drugs. In fact, the active chemical in marijuana, THC, is a prescription drug. Any drug will be a prescription drug if it is a controlled substance that the FDA determines to have medical benefit.
So marijuana the drug does have medical benefit in a pill form, and is available under prescription, and is regulated by the FDA. But, smoking it (as opposed to taking it in pills) does not have have any identifiable medical benefit according to the FDA. And that is why you cannot get it by prescription.
I thought you believed in science and I was the lunatic who thinks science can be political
Charlie,
“Some RYs are actually very concerned and have sponsored drug abuse programs; others seem to live in terror “
As I said earlier, people base their observations on the cicumstances they find themselves in. The yeshivas and R’Y i am familiar with do not have massive drug use.
Apparently, and sadly, you seem to have found your self in different circumstances and the yeshivot you are affiliated with have such an issue.
Perhaps they have to buckle down and be more conservative in theor approach to recreational drug use. I am not sure, but perhaps being too liberal is what leads to such problems. And it certainly is a problem.
PBA
I think there are 2 Benefits to Smoking marijuana,
1) marijuana helps against Glaucoma
2) People on Chemo have a tough time eating and keeping food down. They lose their appetite and throw up alot. its called wasting away. marijuana helps fight this urge and helps those patients eat
Zdad,
These benefits are not from specifically smoking pot, the pill form works at least as well. And it doesn’t stink up the area either.
The benefits are to very limited group. Perhaps for them it would be beneficial. But when there are doctors dispensing pot on the boardwalk, I highly doubt all those people have either glaucoma or are on chemo. Certainly not when they have just left the tattoo parlor and roller bladed in to the “Doctors” office.
Nor are most of the studeents in Charlie’s schools suffering from glaucoma (Testing is first suggested after 40) or on chemo.
“Any drug will be a prescription drug if it is a controlled substance that the FDA determines to have medical benefit.”
Unfortunately the FDA has been politicized. The current Plan B debacle is one such example.
“This should be illegal, acc. to federal law, to make such a law -if it isn’t already.”
I guess you must not live in the US because you seem to have no clue about how the federal system works in the US. The federal government has no power to make it illegal for a state or local government to pass a law. In most cases any federal law, however, would pre-empt any state or local laws, and that is the case here.
“Funny, the NYPD has a terrrorist task force. As far as I know there is No city law outlawing terrorism – Nor did any federal agency give them permission to investigate possible terrorists on their own, only to be part of the JTTF. How could they waste taxpayers money on enforcing federal law?”
NYPD works closely with federal law enforcement agencies; just to give one example, they and the FBI jointly stopped 4 people who were planning to blow up two synagogues in my neighborhood. But the state or local government agencies need permission to do this; they are not permitted to be freelancers.
“Police Depts. can enforce Federal law if they choose to, but by Pot they seem unwilling to.”
Local police departments can only enforce federal law with permission of the appropriate federal law enforcement agency.
“Really? So with a Script -I can plant and grow Opium and I won’t be breaking any law like I can with Pot? I don’t think so!”
You would need a license from the FDA to produce opiates, and like any prescription drugs there would be very strict supervision of the manufacturing process. The same is true of cocaine, which is also a legal prescription drug. Not all opiates are legal; for example, heroin has the same status as marijuana.
“I highly doubt all those people have either glaucoma or are on chemo. “
I agree.
charliehall -You wrote something after each point, but it didn’t address the point.
“The federal government has no power to make it illegal for a state or local government to pass a law. In most cases any federal law, however, would pre-empt any state or local laws, and that is the case here.”
My Point Was -the State should Not be able to pass Laws than in essence encourage people to use Pot, which is against Federal law. And this is fact that this is what happens.
“But the state or local government agencies need permission to do this; they are not permitted to be freelancers.”
You obviously Didn’t read my post -I said the NYPD freelances with their Anti-terrorist squad. Did you know they were spying in NJ?
“Local police departments can only enforce federal law with permission of the appropriate federal law enforcement agency.”
I just proved to you that they don’t in the above case.
“Not all opiates are legal; for example,”
So why are you allowed to grow Pot plants? Why does the Feds ignore this? Do you think if I grew an Opium plant -the Feds would ignore me?
Can I be featured in the book?
I went to yeshiva, I drank in the dorm, and now I’m a delinquent who spends too much time on the internet.
“the State should Not be able to pass Laws than in essence encourage people to use Pot, which is against Federal law. And this is fact that this is what happens.”
Sorry, but the people who wrote the US Constitution disagreed.
“I just proved to you that they don’t in the above case.”
You proved nothing of the kind.
“So why are you allowed to grow Pot plants? Why does the Feds ignore this?”
It is illegal everywhere in the US to grow pot plants. The feds don’t prosecute because they have better things to do with their resources.
charliehall -“You proved nothing of the kind.”
I most certainly did. The NYPD went spying on Muslims in New Brunswick, NJ and this had nothing to do with a federal agency.
They did this alone, not as part of the JTTF!
My question is:
Why is it ok to have a bottle of schnapps on the table at shul at 9am, but in many of your opinions- a “rebellion against the kingdom of heaven” young observant men to smoke a joint (responsibly) for, recreational or de-stressing purposes? It is my humble opinion that alcohol consumption, when abused, is far more inebriating, disabling, intoxicating… whatever you want to call it. Alcohol poses a far greater risk for abuse, addiction, carelessness/tragedy- statistically, because it is legal and more easily obtainable than marijuana, practically, because its virtually impossible to overdose or become “emergency room” sick from smoking even ten consecutive joints, whereas alcohol consumption, by contrast, can quickly spiral out of control starting with having one too many drinks…
Of course marijuana, and the high effect from smoking it, in most cases is not conducive to learning- and alcohol is certainly worse in this regard. But what about for those of us who are not learning? How is it worse for us to smoke than to drink? It’s clear that in our beautiful religion, there has been a long history of using alcohol for purposes of sanctity and elevation of spirit- our rabbis and forefathers taught us that even something which is dangerous and has the potential to cause chaos can be used in a way to serve hashem.
I am not coming to defend the political or personal agendas of those in power advocating for legalization. I am simply trying to tell you, from extensive personal experience, that its not the evil you think it is.
This next point is opinionated and probably arguable, because I (and I think nobody else) knows the facts- but I feel that the only reason alcohol is OK in many of your opinions because of the role it plays in Jewish life. Perhaps if weed was around in biblical times it would have been used in rituals as a way to serve gd. Consequently it wouldn’t be outlawed in most lands like it is today, and wouldn’t have all of the misconceptions currently associated with it.
Do I detect a “higher than thou” attitude?
E-O-M -“My question is:
Why is it ok to have a bottle of schnapps on the table at shul at 9am, but in many of your opinions- a “rebellion against the kingdom of heaven” young observant men to smoke a joint (responsibly) for, recreational or de-stressing purposes?”
Simply because there is no amount of pot that won’t affect your driving capability and most people go out and drive. So making a L’chaim can in No way be compared to smoking Pot. It’s also Oiver Dina D’malchusa Dina by smoking Pot.
Here is the statistics about alcohol and driving.
eom- im feeling that someone has some negius in this one
At the moment, no
In a few hours, hopefully 🙂
It’s also Oiver Dina D’malchusa Dina by smoking Pot.
I don’t think we pasken that way.
Health– much like alcohol, pot should be enjoyed RESPONSIBLY. And much like alcohol, it’s about variables such as tolerance, weight, and most importantly- limits/boundaries.
And you’re right it’s over Dina of federal law, but not state, which you’ve already argued about with Charlie. It’s difficult to say its the law of the land if its never enforced.
It’s also Oiver Dina D’malchusa Dina by smoking Pot.
dina d’malchusah only applies to laws that liberals like
Reb Moshe paskened explicitly against pot smoking for many reasons.
Reb Moshe paskened explicitly against pot smoking for many reasons.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=271&hilite=
It might be worth noting that dina d’malchusa dina is not one of the reasons.
I’m curious, Health, do you pay usage tax on out of state online purchases?
I was waiting for someone to pull the R Moshe card…
Obviously nobody expects the gedolim to take a different stance on the marijuana issue than R Moshe’s . It had to be especially addressed for yeshiva students as I stated that most of the time pot is not at all conducive to torah study.
Just be a bit more tolerant of those who choose to indulge responsibly. Much to our misfortune, the issue of “hard” drugs is as relevant and strong as ever, especially among the young adults. From this perspective, pot users stand in contrast to “drug addicts”- so there IS a difference.
And queue the “gateway” argument…. I set it all up for ya 🙂
Obviously nobody expects the gedolim to take a different stance on the marijuana issue than R Moshe’s
So how can you defend it?
BTW, R’ Moshe clearly assered for everyone, not just yeshivah bochurim.
E-O-M -“Health– much like alcohol, pot should be enjoyed RESPONSIBLY. And much like alcohol, it’s about variables such as tolerance, weight, and most importantly- limits/boundaries.”
You missed my point about that No amount of Pot lets you operate machinery or a car safely. Do you only walk or take taxis/buses everywhere?
DY -“I’m curious, Health, do you pay usage tax on out of state online purchases?”
I don’t know what that is, but I just saw an article on Yahoo about Internet sales tax. This I always was charged and paid.
I can’t defend it.
But I am sure in one way or another R Moshe and the Torah forbid abusive drinking, but our society is willing to flirt with that danger over the other. Simply for the reason that the generations were not raised with much exposure to this. Even the old hashish smoked in the Middle East, or the ganja in Jamaica is not the same as today’s marijuana, which is engineered and cultivated by the biggest pharmaceutical company’s chemists.
The fact is modern marijuana is a relatively new and potentially dangerous substance if abused. The former is probably why it’s assur, the latter is the same exact thing as alcohol. Actually no, alcohol is worse.
If you buy on the internet and aren’t charged sales tax (which happens if the seller doesn’t have a presence in your state), you must, by law, send in the tax with your income tax. When you pay sales tax after the sale, it’s called usage tax. Almost nobody does (but they might start cracking down).
“The NYPD went spying on Muslims in New Brunswick, NJ and this had nothing to do with a federal agency.”
They were not trying to enforce a federal law.
Give up while you are ahead.
“It’s difficult to say its the law of the land if its never enforced.”
That may have halachic significance. CYLOR.
Health- I wasn’t going to respond to your post, I don’t like when the banter gets petty.
However there are some remarkable issues with your comments:
1- do I walk or take taxi/buses everywhere? Hmm… Do you? If I’m too inebriated to drive, I simply don’t. I’m responsible enough to do that, without having to reference a ratio chart of body weight to ounces of 80 proof liquor consumed. Do you also sometimes throw empty stomach vs full stomach into the equation? That’s also a dangerous game. Also, why would I need to take alternative transport EVERYWHERE? Are you suggesting I smoke ALL DAY long? It’s ok, I am mochel 🙂
2- further to the point above, being able to pass a breathalyzer does NOT mean you can operate a vehicle safely. Its simply the threshold set by law under which you can not be severely penalized for driving while intoxicated. But if you commit a traffic violation as a result of having a slightly dulled mind because the shul ran out of mezonos rolls that day and you’re really feeling that .04% blood alcohol level buzz this morning- you theoretically are guilty on that level. It’s all a matter of personal maturity and responsibility- teach THAT to your kids.
Why do I feel like more ppl will be mad about the mezonos rolls than anything else I said today?
But I am sure in one way or another R Moshe and the Torah forbid abusive drinking, but our society is willing to flirt with that danger over the other.
They’re both wrong. Yes, R’ Moshe’s reasoning would apply to wanton drunkenness as well.
I hope you’re using pot only in a figurative way, as a rhetorical device to show the folly of alcohol abuse.
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