Duchaning in chutz laaretz

Home Forums Bais Medrash Minhagim Duchaning in chutz laaretz

  • This topic has 31 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by MDG.
Viewing 32 posts - 1 through 32 (of 32 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #616615
    yosefcoleman
    Participant

    Why can’t we restart the minhag of duchaning every day in chutz laaretz. Why can’t we and have circumstances changed and why on Yom tov do we only Duchan at Muscat and not at shacharit as well and on Yom Kippur shacharit and Neila as well.

    #1111367
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ask your local nonorthodox maharat.

    #1111368
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Muscat?

    #1111369
    hakohen53
    Participant

    My son wanted to start to daven vasikin, but the closest minyan was a sefardi minyan where they duchaned every day. My son asked our Rav what he (a Kohen)should do. Our Rav said that it is a legitimate minhag for the sefardim to duchan in chutz le’aretz, but not for Ashkenazim. Our Rav mentioned that there were times in Europe when some Ashkenazi rebbonim wanted to change the minhag in their town to do as you suggest and duchan every day, and in each instant the decision was supposedly followed by a calamity. Our Rav suggested that my son could daven there but that since he was an ashkenazi he should walk out and not duchan, especially because this was going to be an every day occurrence and not just a one time situation. The inference I guess is that if he just went to daven there once or twice then he may have allowed him to duchan during the week.

    #1111370
    Joseph
    Participant

    And what if your son is the only Kohen in the minyan that day?

    #1111371
    MDG
    Participant

    hakohen53 said:

    Our Rav suggested that my son could daven there but that since he was an ashkenazi he should walk out and not duchan, especially because this was going to be an every day occurrence and not just a one time situation.

    A while ago I asked my Rav who quotes a teshuva of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that it’s OK for a Ashkenazi cohen to duchen at a Sephardi minyan. I did not ask about daily vs. occasionally.

    #1111372
    MDG
    Participant

    OP asked:

    “Why can’t we restart the minhag of duchaning every day in chutz laaretz. “

    There are reasons mentioned in the poskim, like simcha and the need for mikve. I find those a bit forced. When I have pressed a Rebbe in yeshiva and also the Rosh Kollel from my home town, they both said (at different times) that really there is not a conclusive reason. We just have Emunat Chachamim.

    #1111373
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Ask your local nonorthodox maharat”

    All the ones I have ever met are orthodox.

    #1111374
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “All the ones I have ever met are orthodox.”

    DO you ever wonder why certain sattements ar oxymoronic?

    You would say that someone certified by a non orthodox as a cleric by a non orthodox institute can be called orthodox?

    edited

    #1111375
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Is someone certified as a hair stylist by a non-orthodox automatically not orthodox?

    #1111376
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    Rama (o.c. 128:45) says we don’t duchan in chu”l every day because simcha is a precondition for duchaningm and we are only truly b’simcha on yom tov. Also, there’s a story somewhere that the Gra tried to reinstitute birkas kohanim and then the shul burned down, so he stopped it.

    #1111377
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RY23, it depends on if they use unorthodox hair styling techniques.

    #1111378
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    My emunas chachamim includes believing that the reasons they give are conclusive.

    #1111379
    Sam2
    Participant

    No one really understands how the reasons are sufficient but we can’t change the Minhag.

    I have met several Maharats. Some are Orthodox. Some aren’t. I would trust the Kashrus of all of the ones I’ve met, though. (Some of the ones who have published stuff online I definitely wouldn’t trust their Kashrus, though.)

    #1111380
    Avi K
    Participant

    Minhag HaGra is to duchan every day. The Gra wanted to make that the minahg of his bet midrash but a fire broke out and he announced that he ddi not have the support of Heaven. Same when Rav Chaim Volozhiner decided to change the minhag. Howeevr, Rav Yisrael Salanter said that if he had agreed withthe Gra he woulkd have changed it fire or no fire. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky said that RYS thought that the fire had been set by fanatics and neither the Gra or RCV wanted to make a fight of it. RYS did not care.

    In any case, I do not understand why an Ashkenazi cannot duchan in a Sephardi shul as that is the minhag hamakom, especially if he davens there every day (see Iggerot Moshe Orach Chaim 3:5). Of course, he can make aliya as the standard Ashkenazi minhag in EY (except in the Galil and Haifa) is like the Gra.

    #1111381
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Not duchening every day is a penalty you pay for not living in E”Y. Tell your son to make aliyah, and his problem will be solved.

    #1111382
    yosefcoleman
    Participant

    Can someone answer my third question on why on days that we Duchan do we only Duchan at mussaf and not at shacharit and Neila when applicable.

    #1111383
    Participant

    No one really understands how the reasons are sufficient but we can’t change the Minhag.

    Just because something is done multiple times doesn’t necessarily make it a Minhag. If you were to consistently leave weddings before Sheva Brachos, it still wouldn’t be a Minhag.

    Likewise, consistently Davening Mincha close to sunset won’t create a Minhag not to say Tachnun.

    #1111384
    charliehall
    Participant

    Went to a Sefardic Minyan this Shabat. Birkat Kohanim at Shacharit and Mussaf.

    #1111385
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    The rama (128:44) says birkas kohanim is only said my mussaf on yom tov because the simchah is greater then, before everyone heads for the s’udah.

    The rama says birkas kohanim is said by n’ilah and brings differing customs regarding shach’ris. (The reason it was stopped by n’ilah is probably because it usually extends until after sh’kiah.)

    #1111386
    Avi K
    Participant

    Scared, actually he says that there is no simcha in Chul except on Yom Tov.

    #1111387
    charliehall
    Participant

    At the “Open Orthodox” shul I attend we even say birkat kohanim at Musaf, not Shacharit, on Simchat Torah. The Rema would be pleased. 😉

    #1111388
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “At the “Open Orthodox” shul I attend we even say birkat kohanim at Musaf, not Shacharit, on Simchat Torah. The Rema would be pleased. ;)”

    And that includes the baptist ministers who join in.

    Don’t kid yourself, there is nothing they do at HIR that the Rema would approve of.

    #1111389
    B1g B0y
    Participant

    I dont think we can say about anybodies actions that the Rema would be pleased or not. We have no hasaga of who the Rema was.

    #1111390
    charliehall
    Participant

    “And that includes the baptist ministers who join in.”

    Nope. No Baptist ministers in sight.

    #1111391
    Participant

    especially if he davens there every day

    If he davens there daily it is more problematic because he could be establishing a personal minhag to duchen daily.

    #1111392
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Avi K, the rama doesn’t mention chu”l there and I don’t know why it’s relevant anyway.

    #1111393
    MDG
    Participant

    “the rama doesn’t mention chu”l there and I don’t know why it’s relevant anyway”

    The difference of chu”l is understood by many as to why Birkat Cohanim is not said daily.

    #1111394
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    MDG,

    Avi K, the rama doesn’t mention chu”l there and I don’t know why it’s relevant anyway.

    The difference of chu”l is understood by many as to why Birkat Cohanim is not said daily.

    that addresses neither of the two points I made

    #1111395
    MDG
    Participant

    “that addresses neither of the two points I made “

    Let me rephrase. Even though the Rama makes no mention of Chu”l, many understand his comment implies an answer (to the glaring question) as to why no birkat cohanim in chu”l.

    #1111396
    Sam2
    Participant

    MDG: At the Rema’s time, an Ashkenazi community in E”Y (had such a thing existed) also would not have Duchaned daily. Any Chiluk between CHU”L and E”Y is post facto explanation for something that obviously has a much simpler one.

    #1111397
    MDG
    Participant

    “At the Rema’s time, an Ashkenazi community in E”Y (had such a thing existed) also would not have Duchaned daily.”

    That’s because “minhag avoteinu”; whatever they did in Europe, they continued to do in E”Y. The reason why most Ashkenazim duchan daily in E”Y is because most of the founders of the Askenazi yishuvim were tamidei haGR”A. As pointed out above, in Haifa and in the Galil, they don’t duchan daily – not talmidai haGRA.

    In any event, I interpret the implicit question of why don’t Ashkenazim duchan daily as saying what caused them to stop. Clearly the practice in E”Y was more often than just Y”T (see Sotah 38b towards the top and Rashi 'Liperakim' - 10 lines down). The Rama addresses the question, but his reasoning is not based on what happened in his time, but rather on what caused them to stop centuries before. Many read into his reasoning to include the difference of chu”l was part of the reason.

Viewing 32 posts - 1 through 32 (of 32 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.