June 15, 2012 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #603802
How do you figure out how early you can make Shabbos?June 15, 2012 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1145400
Go to a zemanim website* and look up the time for “Plag” or “Plag HaMincha.” This week it’s 6:54 in NYC. Plag is the earliest time for making an early Shabbos.
*Here’s the OU’s: http://www.ou.org/holidays/calendar/June 17, 2012 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1145401
I read somewhere that you can only light within the first five minutes after plag hamincha, otherwise you have to wait for the regular lichtbentchen time. Is that true?June 17, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1145402147Participant
mommamia22:- Shabbos candles as well as Chanukah candles on Friday, can be lit any time from Plag haMincha thru sunset.
Maybe mommamia22 is confusing him/herself, with the Halocho, that Kiddush can be made any time from Plag haMincha until the last 1/2 hour before Nitefall, and of-course any time after nitefall.June 17, 2012 6:07 am at 6:07 am #1145403
I read something about this on ahavas-shalom.org when looking up info about lighting early. I googled early shabbos candle lighting and it was one of the first searches that came up after aish and chabad. It was talking specifically about early candle lighting and mentioned not being permitted to light more that five minutes after plag. It sounds a bit strange, that’s why I’m confused.June 17, 2012 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1145404
I’m not sure why they would say that. But if you’re asking me it’s okay to light any time from plag until shkia, and you can also make kiddush anytime after plag. The only thing that shouldn’t be done is to daven Mincha and Ma’ariv both between plag and shkia. And it’s okay to daven Ma’ariv after the meal too.June 17, 2012 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1145405fedup11210Member
To manually calculate the time you need to know the time for Haneitz Hachama (sunrise) and Shkias Hachama (sunset) for your location. The length of time between these two points are the daylight hours. Divide by 12 to get the SHAH ZEMANIYOS. 1.25 of these hours before SHKIA is Plag. For example: Sunrise is 5:24 and Sunset is 8:29. The morning has 6 hours and 36 minutes (from 5:24 to Noon) or 396 minutes. the afternoon has 8 hours and 29 minutes or 509 minutes. total of 396+509 is 905 minutes (15 hours and 5 minutes of daylight). Divide by 12.Each hour has 75.4 minutes. 75.4 x 1.25=94.25 or 1 hour and 34 minutes. 8:29 – 1:34 is 6:54 PM.June 17, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1145406golden momMember
the best way to figure out what time you could make early shabbos is find out in all the local shuls what time is the earliest minyan and go to itJune 17, 2012 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1145407
Divide by 12 to get the SHAH ZEMANIYOS
The way we learned in fifth grade, is that you take the number of normal hours in the day and multiply by 5 to get ???? ??????.
For example, if sunrise is 7:30, and sunset is 4:00, then there are 8.5 hours in the day. Then, 8.5×5=42.5, so there are 42.5 minutes in a shaa zmania.
(Ok fine, we learned it like you, but then I raised my hand and said we could just do it this way. And the rebbi agreed, after we tried a few examples.)June 17, 2012 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1145408147Participant
The only thing that shouldn’t be done is to daven Mincha and Ma’ariv both between plag and shkia:- …….. However, if this is going to pause problems, 2 options:-
1) If praying with a Minyan, there are Kulos for “Tartei dSasra” in light of “Tircha dTzibur” which you or/& your local Rabbi may decide to rely upon;
2) There is also an option of calculating daytime seasonal hours, based on:- from daybreak [A.K.A. Alos haShachar] thru nitefall [A.K.A. Tzeis haKochavim] which may cause Plag haMincha to be at a more convenient time, with your busy schedule. BTW in some very Northern countries at the height of winter, this later Plag haMincha could come out after Shkiah, if day is extremely short, and “Bein haShemoshos” is very protracted; Needless to say, in such a situation, one must utilize Plag haMincha based on day from sunrise thru sunset.June 17, 2012 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1145409rabbiofberlinParticipant
yitay- “the only thing you cannot do is to daven minchah and maariv between the plag and shkia”.
This view has taken hold in many quarters but, “bemechilas kovod toroscho- it is wrong . Look in shulchan aruch Siman 233, se-if 1, mishneh berurah se-if koton 11 concerning a “Zibbur’, when it is allowed.June 17, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1145410Sam2Participant
Yitay should have said “should not”, not “cannot”. Even in a Tzibbur, it’s only okay B’dieved. Tirchah D’tzibburah makes it a Sha’as Had’chak which is Kib’dieved.June 17, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1145411oot for lifeParticipant
mommamia – i duplicated your google search to find what you read. The opening line of the Rav’s article is slightly misleading but if you continue reading he explains why he says this. The *shul* and all those davening there will have accepted Shabbos no later than five min. after plag, therefore if your husband is davening there he would have already accepted for you (and family and guests) therefore lighting later than this will be mechallel Shabbos. This article is only written with regard to their shul. I suggest seeking out a LOR.June 17, 2012 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1145412
I did say should not. Heh heh. QED.June 17, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1145413rabbiofberlinParticipant
sam2 and yitai- it is “maaseh bechol jom’ that many minyainim daven mincha and maariv together after plag(including shabbos)- because ,as you write, one cannot gather people for a minyan gain.I am not sure I would call this “bedieved’- we are talking about a zibbur- which has many kulos.June 17, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1145414fedup11210Member
Popa: I never thought of it that way. what my calculation does is to take the # of hours, convert it to minutes and the divide by 12 or in other words hours x 60/12 or hours x 5. Thanks for the hint.June 17, 2012 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1145415
Yes, that is the mathematical explanation.
The 5th grade popa just realized that it was always working out to hours*5. Meanwhile, the REDACTED year old popa hasn’t taken math since 11th grade.June 17, 2012 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1145416mewhoParticipant
i think early shabbos should allow for early havadalah.
also, why is it that shabbos is starting so late now . it should be the latest during the 8 summer weeks so that people have more time to get upstate on fridaysJune 17, 2012 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1145417Sam2Participant
Rabbiofberlin: Correct, and the Halachic reason that there are Kulos by a Tzibbur is that “Sha’as Had’chak Kibdieved Dami”.June 18, 2012 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1145418YW Moderator-42Moderator
I think that the general daas of husbands davening kabalas Shabbos early is not to be mikabel Shabbos for their wife so the wife can light as late as she wants (up to shkia)
When there is only one shul in the town and that shul is being mekabel Shabbos early then it might be more problematic. But in Brooklyn where there are 42 shuls on every block each starting a different time it shouldn’t be an issue.June 18, 2012 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1145419R.T.Participant
“I think that the general daas of husbands davening kabalas Shabbos early is not to be mikabel Shabbos for their wife so the wife can light as late as she wants (up to shkia)”
It is a Machlokes HaPoskim. Rav Moshe Feinstein (& I think the Debreciner Rav) holds that when a husband is mekabel Shabbos early, it doesn’t affect the wife and the wife can do melacha and licht right up to 18 minutes before Shkia (NOT at SHKIA).
Other contemporary poskim hold that when a husband says Barchu, the wife (& other family members) is nigrar and ‘shlepped’ to start shabbos at that time.June 20, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1145420chofetzchaimMember
Queens TBT Kollel Boker
By: R’ Chananya Berman
If my husband makes “early Shabbos” when does Shabbos start for me (the wife)?
If a husband accepts early Shabbos it does not obligate his wife (or children) to accept Shabbos as well. However, if the husband accepts Shabbos for the mitzvah of tosefes Shabbos (adding on to Shabbos), and not just for convenience, then it has the status of a custom to which his family would be subject. In such a case his family would have to stop all melacha when he accepts Shabbos (Iggros Moshe O.C. 3:38). There is an opinion that even in this situation his family would not be bound by his personal acceptance of Shabbos (Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 263:22).
A community with one Shul:
In a city that has one shul only, when that shul accepts Shabbos the whole city is “pulled along” and must also accept Shabbos (Chayei Adam 5:9). The reason for this is based on the concept of Minhag Hamakom. This holds true for the women of the community as well. Therefore, they must be careful to light candles and stop doing any melacha before this time.
If there is more than one shul in a community then by definition neither one is “minhag Hamakom”. Therefore, the individual is not bound by the community even if one shul is the majority (M.B. 263:51).
Camps and Bungalow Colonies:
Camps and colonies generally have one minyan and therefore are considered like a city with one shul. Once they accept Shabbos everyone in that colony or camp would be required to accept Shabbos as well (Sefer 39 Melachos Vol. 1 note 749). Some poskim say that since the community is doing it for convenience the individual is not dragged after the majority and can accept Shabbos later. However, one still should not do any open melacha such as drive through the colony or camp (Iggros Moshe ibid.).
For all practical questions please ask your Rav.June 21, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1145421
The wife can do melacha only up till 18 minutes before?
I heard if there’s an emergency, she could use the 18 minutes.
Years ago, we went to a shabbaton from arachim, and were arriving incredibly late. We used the 18 minutes to drive as close as we could and walked the rest once Shabbos started.June 21, 2012 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1145422
Yes, you are correct. The reason we don’t use the 18 minutes is because one opinion in the rishonim is that there is an understanding that by lighting the candles* you accepted Shabbos upon yourself, and therefore you aren’t allowed to do melacha. There are rishonim who disagree with this and the truth is that the letter-of-the-law follows the lenient rishonim, but there is a well-established custom to be concerned for the other opinion, which is why, as you correctly noted, we will only rely on it in extenuating circumstances.
*I am simply going with the assumption that you light at 18 minutes. If you haven’t lit yet you can do melacha until shkia; I’m not sure why R.T implied otherwise.June 21, 2012 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1145423oot for lifeParticipant
I believe RT is referring to when to when the husband is mekabel Shabbos early. If you are taking Shabbos in normal time, you are able to light closer to shkia although it is still not suggested if it can be avoided.April 6, 2016 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1145424
One should not light candles, or do any other melacha, once it is two minutes to shkia (due to the obligation of tosefes shabbos, which, according to Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal as well as other leading poskim, requires that one start Shabbos [at least] two minutes before shkia.
In a case of extreme and dire need, one may continue to do melacha until one second prior to sunset, since there are opinions that there is no specific amount of time that needs to be added to fulfill the mitzvah of tosefes shabbos. See Orchos Rabbeinu vol. 1, p. 105, that in a case of need, one can light Shabbos candles until sunset. If one is relying on this (perhaps in the winter months), extreme care must be taken to finish lighting and to drop the match from one’s hand at least one second prior to shkia. If a woman does not have enough time to light her customary number of candles prior to shkia, she should light as many of them as she can (or just one, if necessary) and drop the match from her hand at least one second prior to shkia. Rabbi D. Ribiat decries those women who cannot stand the thought of missing candle-lighting, and sometimes they light even after sunset, which is a safek issur kores.
Bottom line: One should make every effort to light candles 18 (preferably 20) minutes before shkia. This shows the proper respect to the Shabbos Queen.
If a woman is preparing for immersion, and she needs the extra time, according to Rabbi B. Forst shlit”a in his sefer on the laws of niddah, she should complete all melachos and light by no later than 5 minutes prior to shkia.April 6, 2016 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1145425April 6, 2016 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1145426
Who says you can light a second before shkiah? The actual shkiah can vary from posted times because of atmospheric conditions, so you need to give a couple of minutes as a buffer to make sure.April 8, 2016 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1145427
Yes. But, in theory, one could light up until shkia. The Chazon Ish says this, and so does Rabbi Kanievsky. See source above.April 8, 2016 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1145428
In a case of extreme and dire need, the person isn’t concerned about theory.April 8, 2016 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1145429JosephParticipant
Don’t those with minhagim from some parts of Oberland have a later shkia than the most common zman? I recall initially when they came to America post-WWII they started Shabbos later (some still do even today) but later agreed with Rav Aharon to use the earlier zman in order to have a unified zman rather than different kehilos starting Shabbos different times in the same neighborhoods.
If so, b’shas hadchak could not those from the aforementioned kehilos utilize their later shkia to light?April 8, 2016 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1145430
Meanwhile, the 75 year old popa is still proud of the 5th grade popa for outsmarting the whole world.April 8, 2016 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1145431
I hadn’t read upthread. Cool. I’m also proud of the fifth grade popa.April 8, 2016 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1145432
I don’t know if those kehillos would fall back on it b’sha’as had’chak to do melachah.
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