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Is there really no such thing as easy money? Many Jews from Flatbush, 5 towns, Lakewood are born into extremely wealthy families and inherit big businesses or real estate without ever having to sweat it out. Then you have the cash advance nuevo riche people who make fortunes in a week. Is the game changing?
Inheriting wealth is a very old phenomenon. Nothing new about that at all.
America is a rich country.
“ Then you have the cash advance nuevo riche people who make fortunes in a week.״
You also have drug dealers who make fortunes in a week.There is such a thing and it is worth pursuing. Rambam and others write that one should teach a child a clean and easy profession. Something, where he can earn respectable living and not requiring undue hardships. I think most people help their children not so much by providing them enough money to live but by teaching them right skills and trades and then helping to ease into jobs or business.
In our times, you can achieve same things even if your parents are not able to fully help. Get a (good) online degree, get a respectable job to feed your family. Then, you can divide remaining time between learning, teaching your kids, and trying risky ventures in Amazon selling and real estate to become richer.
It’s “nouveau riche,” from French, not Spanish (in which it’d be “nuevo rico”).
“Get a (good) online degree, get a respectable job to feed your family. Then, you can divide remaining time between learning, teaching your kids, and trying risky ventures in Amazon selling and real estate to become richer….’
Thats one strategy. Alternatively, if you are just starting out and have the discipline, consider applying to a good college and pursuing an advanced degree in business, law, engineering, medicine or any of dozens of professions where you can earn a really good and predictable income without the risk of trying to resell chotchkis on Amazon or flipping real estate. It is increasingly possible in today’s job market to have a flexible work schedule, that would allow time for family and learning.
Ghadora, are you sure you aren’t the old sammygol?
UJM, are you sure you aren’t the old Joey??
Gadol, maybe I was not clear, but I am suggesting something similar. I am not suggesting a diploma mill. I more and more prefer online because of dangers on campus. Another option is a local college with kids living at home. But this might protect from wild parties, but will not protect from hearing what professors are saying and you will never know. With online, I discuss with kids in real time when bad ideas are mentioned, both college and high school.
this is personal. In previous generation, I saw kids who already came as learners from MO schools, going thru college without apparent damage, but I am not so sure about those who were not so strong after high school. In this generation, kids who went to non-MO schools, are ready for overpriced “frum” colleges that are possibly a reasonable option if you can get a good discount. Otherwise, it is throwing a lot of money into the wind.
Who is the one that is ready to be an Employer? Why should i deserve to be an employer more then a employee? The one that his money & business won’t effect his relationship with Hashem i.e. he is still going to daven in a minyan every day & have a learning סדר every day. While an employee only works from 9:00AM to 5:00PM this time of work is his fence between him & Hashem telling him its time to go Daven & learn. But the person that realizes this does not need this fence as a reminder to go daven & learn. Hashem sees he gives צדקה, he Davens & learns everyday so why shouldn’t he be a multi-millionaire? he knows how to spend it right & appreciates that Hashem picked him to be an employer more then an employee. Why don’t jews run the biggest businesses in the world? Because if we do it will effect the relationship between him & Hashem (he will forget to daven & not be שומר שבת etc…) while on the other hand the phone company of IDT is owned by a jew by the name of Howard Jonas. Why is he the owner of such a big company? Why did Hashem pick him? Hashem saw in the future that this man has the potential to be rich & not forget Hashem that put him in this position & still do his מצות (Howard Jonas even has a book he made, the name is I’M NOT THE BOSS.)
sam > ? The one that his money & business won’t effect his relationship with Hashem
not so fast. A major aspect of avdut is not being able to control your own time. And the eved doesn’t have a lot of mitzvos because of that. So being an employer or an independent contractor is definitely preferable. And if you learn how to be responsible for your actions in business, you will also use this attitude towards Hashem.
(cont) and if you don’t value your time to the degree that from 9am you wait when it is gonna be 5pm (and eventually, when is it going to be a vacation, and them retirement), then you will take same attitude to your davening and learning after 5 pm. “Hashem pours wine into a full cup” (Brochos ~ 5)
The real rich who inherited money do not need to show off as they are sure about themselves only the nouveau rich (newly rich) who have an inferiority complex show off. Yaakov Avinu said to his sons, lama tisrau, don’t make it look that you have when you don’t have.
“But online college .. .might protect from wild parties and bad ideas”.
Sorry to break the bad news, but your fantasies about “wild parties” are a bit exaggerated. Millions of young men and women have managed to get through 4 years of college and graduate without ever having experienced the kind of crazy stuff that shows up in the evening news occasionally and in those “Spring Break” movies. Between keeping ups with their courses and working to pay tuition in many cases, there really is little, if any time for “partying”.
As to being exposed to “bad ideas”, I would respectfully suggest that part of the college experience for ALL students should be the ability to evaluate a broad spectrum of beliefs and ideas and learn how to make decisions for oneself as to the validity of competing positions. In-person learning provides considerably more opportunity to discuss and debate ideas with other students than a sidebar “chat” with other students on a zoom call.Ghadora: It is halachicly prohibited to read kefira.
Gadol, besides my own experience, I have two buildings full of students near my house, so I am well aware of student lifestyle. My kids didn’t know that we have neighbors until they (kids) became teenagers: when kids were awake, students are asleep, when students party, kids were already sleeping
Show me a gemora advocating purposefully sampling everything. Or wait just got one in daf yomi Hagiga: a talmid haham who had Greek books falling out of his pockets
And, as I said before, it depends on a person, what degree of engagement is safe
To clarify: online education is not sitting on zoom instead of class and chatting. It is having a regiment of lectures and labs, with mostly recorded talks, asynchronous chat rooms with other students sharing information. Having a hevrusa really helps – a friend or sibling who is in the same program, without it parents need to engage more, and kids are less independent.
One trick I learned from kids is listening lectures, going back and forth and at different speeds, see super fast. Using it now for some classes I am listening. In some cases, I am absorbing information better at higher speed, as my mind doesn’t get distracted by implications of what I just learned 🙂
Most people today think Pirkei Avos is full of Rabbi’s opinions but the actual truth is that their advice couldn’t be further from the truth.
What do they say in regards to riches?
Who is rich? One who is happy with his lot and portion given to him in life (even if he is poor C”V) cause if he is happy with what he has then even if you give him millions of dollars for free. He doesn’t need it cause he’s happy with his portion and lot that Hashem has blessed him with from the amount of money to the size of his family etc….Ujm, not only is it forbidden, the rambam is uncharacteristically lengthy in his description of the danger of people allowing themselves to think freely in philosophy. His words are chotzvim lehavos aish; this is from perek 2 halacha 3 in hilchos avoda zara
. ולא עבודת כוכבים בלבד הוא שאסור להפנות אחריה במחשבה אלא כל מחשבה שהוא גורם לו לאדם לעקור עיקר מעיקרי התורה מוזהרין אנו שלא להעלותה על לבנו ולא נסיח דעתנו לכך ונחשוב ונמשך אחר הרהורי הלב. מפני שדעתו של אדם קצרה ולא כל הדעות יכולין להשיג האמת על בוריו. ואם ימשך כל אדם אחר מחשבות לבו נמצא מחריב את העולם לפי קוצר דעתו. כיצד פעמים יתור אחר עבודת כוכבים ופעמים יחשוב ביחוד הבורא שמא הוא שמא אינו. מה למעלה ומה למטה מה לפנים ומה לאחור. ופעמים בנבואה שמא היא אמת שמא היא אינה. ופעמים בתורה שמא היא מן השמים שמא אינה. ואינו יודע המדות שידין בהן עד שידע האמת על בוריו ונמצא יוצא לידי מינות. ועל ענין זה הזהירה תורה ונאמר בה {ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם אשר אתם זונים}. כלומר לא ימשך כל אחד מכם אחר דעתו הקצרה וידמה שמחשבתו משגת האמת. כך אמרו חכמים {אחרי לבבכם זו מינות} ואחרי עיניכם זו זנות. ולאו זה אע”פ שהוא גורם לאדם לטרדו מן העולם הבא אין בו מלקות:
Even in his time, a yid is told by the rambam that he is not supposed to trust his sechel to come to the right conclusions in issues of emunah/hashkofa. Lo sasuru means not to get into such mental discussions or entertain thoughts regarding those issues. Obviously if someone has problems he needs support and sometimes he needs answers/proofs, but it is definitely not an ideal or a worthy pursuit of intentionally exposing one’s self to harmful influences, especially being totally immersed in a hostile culture without having had spent years in a serious Yeshiva (since those who do, know enough not to subject themselves to such things, so it ends up being the weaker elements who go, thus augmenting the danger exponentially)
It’s arrogant to say that we’re stronger than the yiden to whom this halacha was said. It’s a fallacy that you’re not influenced by what’s around you or what you read, and this is (as above, and many other sources) demonstrable from tanach, chazal, rishonim and achronim.
Lo sasuru, the mitzvah of not having goyim live in eretz yisroel is based on “pen Yachtiu oscha li”, “lest they make you sin to me”. Even if we’re the dominant power in the land, allowing a single oved avoda zara to live in eretz yisroel amid MILLIONS of Jews is a danger! The Torah says to get rid of him, because he will cause others to sin by his influence.
The Akeidas Yitzchak says on the second commandment of לא יהי’ לך and as it is so important I will quote it verbatim:
ויש בכלל זה הע”א הגדולה המצויה זאת בעולם מציאות חזק והוא רפואות כל המחשבות והעסקים לקבוץ הממון והצלחות הנכסים שהמה להם האלהים האדירים אשר עליהם הם נשענים ובאמונתם הם נסמכים ועל קדושת שמם הם מכחישים אלו-ה ממעל ועוזבים
את תורתו ומניחים אותה עגונה ועלובה בקרן זויות וזו היא גופה של ע’א
ועיקרהI will try to translate above because of its importance. This (the commandment of lo yihye lecha) includes the great idol worship which is found in this world, a great find which is a cure for all concerns and deeds to collect wealth and success of investments which is their great god that they rely on their belief. They trust its holy name and deny the G-d above and forsake his Torah and leave it an aguna and shameful in the corner. This is the main theme of a’z.
Reb E. Thank you for a beautiful vert which raises the eternal question of when the pursuit of material “stuff” goes beyond that deemed necessary for you and your family to enjoy a comfortable life and instead becomes an accelerating treadmill and an “end” unto itself.
Maybe if tzadaka is given properly from it, we realize that we are just a distributer of the money given to us. The Binah Leitim in Parashas Naso interprets the passage ‘אשר יתן לכהן לו יהי what he gives to the kohen is what truly belongs to him.
AAQ, not everyone knows that the gemara you’re referencing is talking about acher – it was a cute vort, but also easily misunderstood
Avira, I counted on your help :)!
Gadol, RebE, lofty concepts, but the reality is that majority of the people expect to live (at least) like others around them. If they don’t get a legit profession, they’ll get it another way. This is mefurash Kidushin 30. The modern machloket is whether we can be meikel and allow collecting money from non-Jewish social programs. But if you not a tzadik he can live poorly (married to a tzadekes) and you are machmir and insist on earning your own living – then your choice is between college and manual jobs. Many talmidei chachamim are not good at plumbing and hairdressing and would prefer accounting and computer programming. So, then, the question is – is it possible to acquire a profession without spiritual risk (Gadol’s approach to disregard the risk entirely sounds like an ostrich policy that failed in previous generations).
“Gadol’s approach to disregard the risk entirely sounds like an ostrich policy that failed in previous generations…”
AAQ: While I am obviously more open to “risk” than others here, I’ve never advocated “disregarding risk entirely” (especially given the large percentage of my waking hours advising clients on financial and geopolitical risk management). For the last time, my point is that for those unsure of their hashkafah or insecure in their ability to avoid what you might consider “pritzus” or inappropriate intellectual dialogue, than an online college education is certainly preferable than avoiding college entirely. For others, in-person learning may be a preferable option. There is no “right” or “wrong” for everyone. Its safe to say that hundreds of thousands of frum yidden in the past decades have successfully navigated 4 years of college w/o going OTD.“Show me a gemora advocating purposefully sampling everything..”
AAQ: I’ve never tried blowfish (aka pufferfish”) sushi and really never had a yearning to do so. Aside from its obvious treifus (no scales) rumor has it that about 15 sushi addicts die annually from ingesting improperly prepared nagiri. Likewise, I’ve not tried base jumping off the GWB even though it supposedly a real “high”.
Simple point: I wouldn’t put the idea of attending in-person college classes in the category of some high risk endeavor. Until the past several years, it was (and remains) the norm. Whether it works for a frum young man or woman is entirely a personal decision depending on hashkafah, age, family circumstances, available economic resources, etc.Gadol, you didn’t speak earlier about the question of whether or not one is allowed to expose one’s self to bad influences in order to go to college. That’s a halacha shailah that has two sides, but both sides to that question agree with the aforementioned rambam that one is not permitted to engage in thoughts regarding forbidden beliefs. You said that it is meritorious to specifically weigh the ins and outs of foreign ideas and (hopefully) come to the right conclusion.
In your words: “As to being exposed to “bad ideas”, I would respectfully suggest that part of the college experience for ALL students should be the ability to evaluate a broad spectrum of beliefs and ideas and learn how to make decisions for oneself as to the validity of competing positions.”
This cavalier attitude, says the rambam, potentially costs one their olam haba. I think that’s just about as dangerous as jumping off the George Washington bridge.
Gadol, I am not discarding in person college at all, I am just calling for always looking for safer options, whether it is online or local. For example, doing first two years online, local and then transferring at a higher maturity point. Now I am thinking that is how seminaries work: delay for a year, and give antibodies for another one…
One question is whether parents are estimating kids correctly. One campus Rav told about a call he got from a mother asking him about details of kashrus at his dining room. Getting annoyed, he asked her back: did your family go hiking. She said yes. He said, did your son take tefilin with him. She thought and said,. I think not…. Then he said, are you sure he will take it to college?
Hi
AAQ/AVD: Valid points. I guess I’m coming at it from the perspective of a young man/woman who is already at the “higher maturity” point. As noted, large numbers of frum yidden have successfully navigated the 4 year on-site college experience w/o going OTD.
I won’t speculate as to their losing a full chelek of olam habah from having sat through a lecture on evolution, court decisions on same-sex marriage or other “bad ideas” but respectfully disagree that the risks parallel those of a free fall from the GWB.
BTW: Those same “bad ideas” could just as easily be communicated in an online lecture as would be presented in a “live” lecture in a campus lecture hall.Gadol, it’s that exact notion of “maturity”, “strength”, “conviction”, etc.., which halacha does not permit. Many people who are in that mindset believe that yichud isn’t necessary for them, because “do you think I’m going to….” – curiosity/engaging with bad ideas (why the quotation? Are anti torah ideas not bad?)
Halacha understands the natural weaknesses of people – even, and especially great people – “anyone who’s bigger than their fellow, their yatzer hora is greater”, and he needs more protection, not less. The steipler davened for rav chaim all his life that he not fall into foreign influences, well into his gadol-hood(orchos rabbeinu, i can find the page if necessary). It’s false bravado and arrogance to think one is above sin – regarding apikorsus, chazal say “shaani minus, de’mashchi”, heresy is different, because it drags (one into it).
Regarding lectures with forbidden content, some say that one can tune out those parts and be “masiacb daas”, but with the availability of kosher, curated college courses, it is difficult to justify it even according to those opinions. The majority, however, hold that such study is assur. The fact that “the velt” did it in the 60s/70s, etc, on its own, doesn’t permit it. People had many nisyonos in those days, and contrary to your point of the “thousands of frum people who remained frum” a very, very large number did not. More people went off the derech at that time than now, and college was not a small factor in that. Besides going off, many were/are weakened by it and become much less observant. Look at Mike Moscowits – he was a frum , orthodox rabbi who went to college campuses to do kiruv. He was dragged into the gender bender world and now, with his hat and jacket, promotes LGBT agenda and works with reform/conservative groups in that capacity.
I have direct answer from a hoshuve Rav that I quoted before about attending a class on comparative religions. The answer depends on a person. The permissive side is based not just on tuning it out, which will be a waste of money for this particular class, but on a positive need to be able to “know what to answer” when operating in academic environment. But this is an extreme and not the most practical example. Not many Jews get into different religions in college, but liberal/socialist ideas are dangerous. I’ve seen sad reform parents who are in serious business, had a son returning from campus not just with a nonjewish girlfriend but also a trotskyist. So the virus is out there, question is whether kids are protected enough. As I now can hear high school and college classes live at home, I can hear a bunch of teachers diverting history, English, biology, even physics into liberal discourses. Not all, not even a majority, but sufficient enough to be dangerous. I would suggest to everyone, try this for a year, and then you will actually see where your kid is holding when under attack, and then decide whether they can go on their own. My in-family estimate so far is about 70 percent are ready…
Maybe gadol as a risk analyst can give us some numbers on risks out there… You saying that many pass the test is not enough, we need to know how many didn’t pass and what is your definition of passing. Many here would not want kids to end up with some of the views you find acceptable.
AAQ, I don’t know who you consider choshuv, but normative halacha does not exposure to apikorsus for average or even above average individuals leshem da ma lehashiv. Rav moshe writes this regarding reading the new testament; he allowed rav avigdor miller (who asked) because he was an actual gadol batorah who had already finished shas many times. The proper fulfillment of da ma lehashiv can be done through kosher sources which were designed to counter those ideologies; rav avigdor Miller’s seforim are one such source, as are the chovos halevavos, emunos vedeos, kuzari and moreh nevuchim. Hearing about it from a supportive, positive source such as an immersive college course is a whole different level.
There were likewise “choshuv” voices which allowed chilul shabbos for work, because of cliched applications of maxims of chazal such as “asei shabatcha chol”. These were actual rabbis of towns in Europe, who were also maskilim. The lines weren’t as clear cut as they are nowadays. Nowadays one can easily know if someone is divergent from mesorah in the way that they dress – take a look at pictures of shlomo yehudah rappaport (he liked to be called “shir”). He was the rov of… Prague? Either that or another major city. He was a complete maskil, but he looked indistinguishable from the chasam sofer in his outward appearance.
Avira, so we have different poskim, ok. I think we talked enough here so that you don’t suspect me of quoting reform or OO or anything like that. Again, this is in context of people already on a path to academic career, not a typical case. I brought a an extreme case. I don’t think avoda zara is a big test on campus ourdays.
maybe we can learn from this: we have Acher who went astray based on reading Greek books (or was it just a sign rather than a cause). And we have, at about same time, Rabban Gamliel has 1000 people learning Torah and 1000 – Greek. Is this only for working with the government? Also, not clear to me – why he seemingly makes 1000 people ignorami, rather than having a dual-curriculum yeshiva? Maybe everyone gets a minimal Jewish education before going into the Greek department? Are there meforshim on this?
Don’t be like Haran who got burned when going into fire because Avraham Avinu escaped. When going to college know that even though others came out untouched, you can get burned.
I guess much depends on your hashkafah and whether you subscribe to the notion that its fundamentally assur to put yourself in a situation where you might be exposed to apikorsus or other “bad stuff”. My kids went through both college and grad school and neither came home with a nonjewish spouse wearing a Chev Guevara t-shirt.
P.S. Very informative and civil thread.> with a nonjewish spouse wearing a Chev Guevara t-shirt.
you missed the comma from that horrific story (that is not the spouse, but the child being a Trotskyist)
I am glad for your kids. 2013 Pew numbers are that 85% of O- educated in general are still O- in the 2os, 60% when in their 30s and lower further. I can’t find numbers correlating these losses with college attendance but would not be surprised that there will be.
AAQ: Sorry, commas can be important….surprisingly, our kids came out of college more frum in some respects than when they went in (and also considerably more conservative politically). I’ll acknowledge thats probably an anomaly, given the Pew numbers you cite.
Gadol, I think the general principle is that Hashem sends us challenges that make us stronger, but it is presumptuous for us to create our own challenges just to show off. We both seem to agree that pursuing college degree is a legitimate direction in order to be educated and productive members of the society (some obviously disagree), then the question is what risk are coming with the territory and some are taken for no reason.
I heard from my rebbi, the Matersdorfer Rav, Rav Shmuel ztz’l zy’a, that an am haaretz is not allowed to eat meat because he sends his son to college thereby figuring that he will be from the miut, small amount who comes out religious from it as entered, according to Rebbi Meir who relies on the miut where the question was how meat can be eaten?
We all have to do it Hishtadlus in life and especially in Parnassa to support our families but if a person can show Hashem their true high level of Bitachon and Emunah (faith and trust) in Hashem in their natural life without depending on miracles. Then Hashem will take care of the rest of them rather through winning the lottery or a rich father in law or someone making a Yissocher-Zevulun deal with him etc….
Klal yisroel while in the Desert was on such a high level of Holiness and Bitachon and Emunah in Hashem after just receiving the Torah Directly from Hashem and while in the Desert they were completely taken care of directly and openly by Hashem by being fed with the daily Mann falling from Heaven to feed Everyone.
May we all start to improve and work on our Bitachon and Emunah in Hashem so that if any of us are ever in need of anything we should turn directly to Hashem. As we say at the end of Birchas Hamazon,vidirshei Hashem lo Yachsiru kol tuv. Meaning for one that seeks out and calls out to Hashem directly (versus going to messengers and middlemen etc….) Lacks nothing that is good for him.
Sam,
I hold in high esteem people who are happy with their helek, don’t spend time working and spend time learning. I suspect this is not a majority of people, though.I have less respect to those who are doing hishtadlus but then expect to get something they did not earn, such as using non-Jewish welfare funds, force Israelis to be zevuluns, working as Rebbes when they are not good at that, etc.
Not doing hishtadlus expecting a miracle, like a lottery, also seems suspect. Either you are a tzadik and deserve a miracle, and then this miracle is subtracted from your zechus; or you do’t and then either you will be frustrated and disappointed or become a thief and dishonest person in some way.
Also, our times allow us to escape this shtark trade-off between hard work and learning. There are plenty of jobs where you can be involved in mitzvos, so you are not wasting time. You can go teach torah, open your own school, babysit, open a Chabad house, a kosher restaurant, or be a mashgiach, be a doctor, a lawyer, a social worker, a soldier – each of these jobs involve a lot of good things you can do for Jews and other people.
AAQ
you hit the nail on the button and what you wrote is exactly the point.What is the secret to success in business? A person came to me for some חיזוק (encouragement). He told me he was a Rebbe & was not having a lot of Hatzlacha with his students. He then asked me if i had any advice for him. I then told him don’t be a rebbe for the $40,000 paycheck, do it for the sake of Hashem (not for the sake of money)& then you are guaranteed to be successful by Hashem Himself. He got back to me a few weeks later & told me he was doing much better Boruch Hashem based on that now he was doing his job from a complete different perspective. This can apply to ANY livelihood. (ex. 1) A contractor-if you build a house with the intention for a Jewish family to move in & raise a jewish family then you are guaranteed success from Hashem. 2)A plumber- before you came to your customers house there was a mess & a lot of screaming with Shalom Bayis problems. But now you fixed the bathroom & there’s peace in the house) Bottom line: When a person does his job for the sake of Hashem then he is guaranteed success & he still gets the same paycheck.
Sam Klein what you are saying is a halacha in Shulchan Aruch O’CH 231 to do our mundane things for Hashem’s sake.
Sam, R Eliezer, great we are in agreement. If you want to ensure you are a Rebbe l’shem shamayim, you can do this: work in a well-paid profession half a day/week and then teach for free the rest of the time. You will be free from thinking that you are teaching for money, you will not be scared by principals or parents.
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