Eating before Shacharis dilemma

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  • #602253
    usa-tralian
    Participant

    I’m flying from EY to the US (west coast) this week, and I’m facing an odd dilemma. The online-generated flight Zemanim table tells me that Alos Hashachar will be about 5 hours after take off (which is 1.10 am Israel) yet Netz does not occur until 10 hours after that due to the flight going so far north above the Arctic Circle, leaving me in limbo for quite some time.

    As we all know, the Shulchan Aruch and Mishnah Berurah (Siman 89) pasken one may not eat from Alos until he davens Shacharis. The flight lands at 6.40 am (about half an hour after Netz at destination) so I hope I’ll be able to make it to a minyan, however the 10 hour difference between Alos and Netz means I won’t be able to eat for about, say, 14 hours before Shacharis – longer than an average Ta’anis! Plus shlepping through airport with luggage etc.

    My Rosh Kollel is looking into this, but I was curious about any comments or Mareh Mekomos others may have. (I don’t believe in Paskening from an anonymous bulletin board….)

    As far as I see it, the two options without eating before davening would be:

    a) go really hungry and be absolutely dead tired and starving during Shacharis with a Minyan

    b) Daven before netz b’Yechidus on the plane

    or somehow defining this situation as the Mechaber’s “??? ?? ???” case and eating before davening based on that…

    #948548

    Ess, mein kindt. Ess.

    #948549
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I once heard of a kula. PLEASE ASK, DON’T ACT UPON THIS.

    If one is not in a “matzav” of davening, one simply cannot do it at the persent, and he needs kochos to be able to when conditions permit – that may be a heter.

    #948550
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Does one have to STOP eating if one began earlier?

    #948551
    bp27
    Participant

    Is the Alos you calculated based on degrees or fixed 72 minutes. I imagine it is degrees, in which case you might be able to be meikil to use Fixed 72 degrees, which in the Arctic circle could make a significant difference.

    #948552
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    isn’t davening before netz a b’dieved so why don’t you just do that?

    #948553
    Ender
    Participant

    “or somehow defining this situation as the Mechaber’s “??? ?? ???” case and eating before davening based on that…”

    you are complaining that it will be like fasting, and you will be really miserable, yet you sound skeptical if this would be considered ??? ?? ???. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

    #948554
    uneeq
    Member

    “or somehow defining this situation as the Mechaber’s “??? ?? ???” case and eating before davening based on that…”

    I would go with that. Personally, I usually have stomach pains if I don’t eat something right away in the morning, so since I wouldn’t have Kavana, I rely on the S”A. It’s hard to believe that after 14 hours hours of fasting and being wiped out from a hard trip like that, that you wouldn’t fall into the categories of Ra’ev and Tzame. S”A is mattir lekatchila as long as you don’t have kavana, although you still have the choice to not eat and pray if you would like to (even without as much kavana).

    About davening before netz be’yochid: I would think that this is not a real Sha’as Ha’dchak. In 89:8 the M”B mentions sha’as ha’dchak such as going on the road in a scenario where you won’t be able to have kavana. Based on what I mentioned before that you are allowed to eat if you won’t have kavana, there is no heter to daven early.

    #948555
    mamashtakah
    Member

    Two of my rebbeim hold you should daven without a minyan (at your seat) on a plane in any case, because it causes problems for the flight crew to get around and past the group.

    #948556
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    How do you access this timetable?

    I have been searching for it for a flight – without success.

    #948557
    twisted
    Participant

    Try a personal taanis or two beforehand, and you will find it easier perhaps. Now is the end of shovvim tat, so you won’t need to invent a reason for the taanis.

    #948558
    uneeq
    Member

    Ender: I agree, this halacha is pretty straightforward. The OP is funny when he says he’s looking for mareh mekomos. Maybe he should start with siman 89 in S”A (orach chaim btw) and then move on to the M”B on that siman.

    When he finishes all that he should look back at his question in the OP and explain to us all why he shouldn’t be able to rely on maran in seif 4. Unless he wants to claim that he’s not looking for kulas whereby he shouldn’t have given possibility B for that is definitely being more meikel then seif 4.

    #948559
    eman
    Participant

    Shovovim ended Mishpotim. Shovovim Tat is only in a jewish leap year, not a secular one.

    #948560
    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    It sounds like this time period is one that you could spend sleeping.

    #948561
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why not just throw the food at the other passengers?

    #948562
    yehudayona
    Participant

    mamashtakah, the OP lands at 6:40 am, with plenty of time to daven with a minyan at his destination. Your rebbeim were talking about a situation where you have to daven on the plane.

    #948563
    charliehall
    Participant

    There is actually quite a bit of halachic literature regarding what to do when you are at or near the Arctic Circle, with numerous approaches. Your Rosh Kollel should be able to find that literature and come up with an acceptable solution. Good luck!

    #948564
    akuperma
    Participant

    become a Hasid – they aren’t so fanatic about having to daven on an empty stomach

    #948565
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    There is something very strange in this question. i have never ,nver heard of a flight from Eretz ysroel to the US going by the arctic circle. Am I mistaken?

    #948566
    147
    Participant

    I knew a very major Rov & Posek who said, that when he gets such She’eilos, his response is:- I wish you had called me up 5 minutes before you made your reservation. I would have told you unequivically to stay away from this flight and reserve onto a different flight.

    Now however that you have gotten yourself into this unfortunate dilemma, unfortunately you are on your own to fend for yourself.

    #948567
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The OP was written over a year ago. He probably landed by now.

    #948568
    yungerman1
    Participant

    147- You could respond to this “very major Rov & Posek” I also wish I had called you earlier, but I only recently discovered this problem. Now are you capable of answering this shaila or should I find a competent Rav who isnt afraid to answer tough shailos?

    #948569
    Toi
    Participant

    again, has anyone found the program that computes the zmanim for on a plane?

    #948570
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    That

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