- This topic has 33 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
1. Is it permissible al pi halacha and per secular law?
2. Is it unrefined behavior to eat in public while shopping?
As a cashier i can tell you i find it annoying and very often have to ask parents if the snack their children has was brought in or are they buying it if i i did not ask many times these items would go unpaid for not that was the persons intent but they forget and often people will just put their empty wrappers and and empty juice pouches on the register for me to ring up and throw out, i just do not see the need to snack on stuff you have not paid for yet this is not something i would ever have done or will do. So the answer to question number two is yes.
1. Is it permissible al pi halacha – idealy can ask the storeowner if unsure can assume most store owners wouldnt mind
and per secular law? – Yes Shoplifting requires “the intent to permanently deprive the item’s rightful owner (the grocery store, in this case), without paying for it.”2. Too Subjective depends on the food eaten, the person eating it, what others do
It might depend on if it is a child or adult that is eating in public.
If it is fruit that has to be weighed it probably is not allowed. However, a bag of cookies or potato chips that has a bar code might be muttar especially if the store owner knows that this practice is going on and allows it.
I’ve seen signs in stores that it’s not allowed according to the NYC Department of Health. Not sure exactly what that means
It means that it’s not allowed according to the NYC Department of Health.
How can they tell me what to do?
They’re not my mother
In Kiddushin 41b, the conduct of eating in public is likened to that of a dog. By “public”, I think Chaza”l had in mind eating while browsing the outdoor, public market place, as opposed to, say, eating in a restaurant. Although a restaurant is more “public” than one’s home, at least it’s an enclosed space. That leaves open the question of “al fresco” accommodations popular in Europe, though I suppose one could justify that as “minhag hamakom”.
A more common activity in our day is walking about drinking from a water bottle. Is that something Chaza”l would have rallied against or, perhaps it’s to be considered more urgent for one’s well being, especially in hotter climates? Then again, since the practice is so commonplace in our day, perhaps it’s not considered uncouth behavior at all.
Joseph: To clarify, if opening a package in a supermarket that you intend to pay for is allowable, then I think a small child eating a small snack in a supermarket (public) is allowable but for an adult it may not be considered refined.
blublublu
” I think Chaza”l had in mind…”
while it is nice to have your own pshat as to what chazal had in mind, the Rishonim offer theirs
Rashi says thisis a place where others dotn do that. Tosfos brings Rabbeinu chananel as it means he steals the food (less tha a perutah). and Rabbeinu Tam who says it means a full meakl (“pas”) which woudl make a restaruant worse than eating a snack in a supermarket.Though according too all 3 of those Rishonim drinking from a water bottle (that is yours) where this is common practice, is allowed.
The frum owned fruit store in my neighborhood has a sign prominently posted next to the fruits, “no sampling”, so for sure, “sampling” in this store is not permitted, unless one will argue that the Lav of Lo Sachsom applies to a potential customer, not just an employee.
Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours. What gives anyone the right to consume someone else’s property’? What if you forget to pay? I’ve seen open boxes of food left on shelves that we’re snacked from and obviously not paid for
I agree with LC.
lesschumras
“Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours. What gives anyone the right to consume someone else’s property’?”Is that what you do in a restaurant?
“What if you forget to pay?”
then and only then have you stolen, no different as if you forgot to pay for any item that you took whether eaten or not isnt relevant to if you “forgot to pay”The Jewish owner of the supermarket where I live has made it known numerous times that he certainly allows people to open snacks for their kids before it’s paid for. Someone once mentioned to me that he also allows them to eat a loose rugelah. Though I never heard that directly from him and I’m not sure how I would pay for it without weighing it so I don’t let my kids have any prior to checkout.
Ubiquitin, the restaurant is not the same as the owner is serving the food, . A better analogy would be a cafeteria
It’s in the owner’s best interest to let people snack on their purchases while they shop. After all, a snacking kid is a happy kid and so Mommy can continue with her shopping and load up her cart, including the snack item she may otherwise not have bought, A kvetchy hungry kid means Mommy rushes through shopping, does not buy as much, a loss for the store. And coming back without the kvetchy kid is also not as good for the owner, since shopping with kids promotes impulse buying.
Also, many stores sell snack items like cold drinks and ice cream, ices that are meant to be eaten right away.
Although I understand why the cashier finds it unpleasant.For sampling, I always ask, unless the supermarket has like toothpicks and garbage cans specifically for sampling (like with olives).
Regarding eating for food before paying for it, I think it depends on cultural considerations. In many places snacking while shopping is very common. In other places, it is frowned upon. If it needs to be weighed, I would only eat it if the products already have a price sticker (like in the baked goods section). Otherwise, you are paying for less than what you bought.
Easiest solution is to ask someone in the store if they mind.
“Isn’t the Halacha that you’re kona an item as soon as you pick it up, even before you pay for it?”
Not if the present owner does not consent. Furthermore, in a store the kinyan is made through money. That’s the gemiras daas. You have never seen a kinyan otherwise.
——————————-“It’s in the owner’s best interest to let people snack on their purchases while they shop…”
While the store owner would not want a screaming kid, s/he also does not want shoplifting. The item does not belong to the customer until payment. A hungry kid is the parent’s responsibility, not the store’s.
________________________________
I find this moreh heter bothersome. If there was a safek of a treif ingredient, you would not touch it, but consuming stolen goods is just as bad – if not worse. I recently heard in the name of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky [sp?] that one reason that kids go OTD is that they ate food acquired through dishonest means, basically gezel.
LC
Of course it sint the same. I was pointing out though that your point “Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours. What gives anyone the right to consume someone else’s property” Isnt absolute.
MDG
“s/he also does not want shoplifting.”I provided the definition of shoplifting in my first post. There is no question that it isnt shoplifting.
“Not if the present owner does not consent.”
I like BD spoke to a local owner who said he loves it “a sale is a sale” why would he put retrictions on where customers can eat food they purchase/plan to purchaseThe supermarket I go to even has plastic spoons they give out so you can eat your yogurt/pudding/ice cream cup. So I guess some store-owners don’t mind giving an advance to their customers on the food they will purchase.
Shopping carts of the future will actually check out the food as it is inserted into the cart (these are actually being tested in some stores already), this should take care of any issue someone might have. I wonder though, if you take out the package to eat something, and then put it back in the cart, if it scans it a second time.“I provided the definition of shoplifting in my first post. There is no question that it isnt shoplifting.”
You provided one definition. Maybe that is the correct definition. Even so, it’s still bad, as TheGoq said above, it can easily lead to stealing. ” if i i did not ask many times these items would go unpaid for not that was the persons intent but they forget ”
________________________
“I like BD spoke to a local owner who said he loves it…”
He sounds like a really nice guy or just a good salesman, but most stores don’t allow. He is the exception, not the rule.________________________
“The supermarket I go to even has plastic spoons they give out so you can eat your yogurt/pudding/ice cream cup. So I guess some store-owners don’t mind …”
What you “guess” may be gezel.
Many of the supermarkets I go to also have plastic spoon, but they are eating after checkout.“You provided one definition.”
Im open to any definition. Do you have another?” it can easily lead to stealing”
I dont see why I have to follow your gezeirahs.“but most stores don’t allow”
what makes you say that?“but most stores don’t allow”
what makes you say that?Some stores certainly don’t allow.
Unless you know that this store allows, you can’t assume that they do.
It’s usually easy enough to ask.
“It’s usually easy enough to ask.”
Yes that was what I said in my first post
“Unless you know that this store allows, you can’t assume that they do.”
That part I disagree with. I think it is safe to assume most store owners are as MGD put it “really nice guy or just a good salesman,” All the more so when you add that it is often done and Ive never seen any one complain, and that there is minimal harm, and gain as WTP pointed out.
Though of course: if unsure, ask! (I have, dont believe me though ask for yourself)
The opening poster has posed a question with a very simple answer: if you are eating something you did not yet pay for, and intend not to pay for it, or don’t pay for it, is it stealing? The answer is so simple that I won’t write the answer that, of course, it is stealing. But I do ask why this kind of question comes up occaisionally? Stealing is stealing, it’s not hard to figure out.
As for the etiquette issue, who cares?
I think the OP meant intending to pay.
” I think it is safe to assume most store owners are as MGD put it really nice guy or just a good salesman,”
Maybe some heimish stores. Large corporations not. If you can ask, then good.
If I’m wrong with my assumptions, nothing happens, If you are wrong with yours, you committed gezel.“I dont see why I have to follow your gezeirahs.”
I’m giving advice. Follow it or ignore it at your own risk.Ubiq, it is absolute. In the restaurant, you are not consuming food without the owner’s knowledge. By placing an order, you are entering into a verbal contract with the owner to provide you with food in return for payment on completion of the meal. The issue is not eating before paying
It’s eating without prior to paying and without the owner’s knowledgeLC
you said this “Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours. What gives anyone the right to consume someone else’s property’? ”
That is a verbatim quote.
you now acknowledge that this rule (“Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours”) Is not absolute, and there are situations where you can consume food prior to paying, since in a restaurant “By placing an order, you are entering into a verbal contract…” (putting aside the fact that I dont believe this is factual, as you cant sue the owner if he fails to provide the order) Who is to say that by placing the items in my cart I am not entering a verbal contract making them mine with the condition that I pay for them later.The truth is you dont need lomdus to frame it this way. The real answer to the restaurant has nothing to do with a “verbal contract” rather that is what is done. So it isnt stealing. Ditto for a snack in a supermarket. while not done as often as eating in a restaurant, it is not unusual thus is acceptable.
You can’t compare a restaurant to a grocery. The way business is conducted is very different.
In a restaurant, there is someone providing the food before you pay for it. This is not the case in a grocery.
Obviously, if the store isn’t makpid, it’s okay, but I don’t know how you could just assume that they’re not.
The fact that “it’s done” doesn’t convince me. The store owner nay not want to antagonize his customer by telling them to stop, but that doesn’t mean that he likes it.
“You can’t compare a restaurant to a grocery”
Agree completely.
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. By my restaurant example I only meant to point out that LC’s rule “Until you’ve paid, the food is not yours. What gives anyone the right to consume someone else’s property”
Isnt true. Their are times where you can consume food that wasnt paid for. Arguably, a supermarket is not one of those times. but his rule isnt absolute.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.