Eating on Erev Yom Kippur

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  • #613828

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Akiva Eiger was not sure if women are included in the mitzvah of eating on Erev Yom Kippur.

    ??”? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??:

    ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???”? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?”? ????? ???? [????’ ??”? ?”? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??’ ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????] ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??’ ????? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?”? ??? ?’ ??? ???? ??”?

    #1034904

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And to eat creep-lach

    #1034905

    Randomex
    Member

    I’ll take the quality of that joke as punishment for being on the CR

    now. (I came on to check my shchivmera thread…)

    #1034906

    147
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur doesn’t have a clue what s/he is talking about. 1)Anyone who is in Issur of Chometz is in obligation to consume Matzo on Seder nite, hence women must also consume Matzo on Seder nite. 2) Anyone who must abstain from Melocho on Schabbos, must perform Kiddush, hence women must also perform Kiddush. 3) Getting to the current issue:- Anyone who must abstain from consumption on Y’K must consume on Erev Y’K, hence women also have a special Mitzwo to consume on Erev Y’K.

    #1034907

    jbaldy22
    Member

    147

    wasn’t Patur Aval Assur’s chiddush.

    It all depends on what the mkor/reason for eating on the 9th is. If you look in the mkor that PAA brought one of the tzdadim is that its not a real limud but rather an asmachta – therefore women would not be mechuyav. Look in the Moadim Uzmanim (chelek 1 siman 53) by Rav Shternbuch who lists numerous reasons for eating on the 9th and nafka minas which may apply to this chakira. additionally Shabbos has exceptions too – shalosh seudos and aish of havdala. If its an asmacta or if its a separate din its not included.

    #1034908

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    147:

    I don’t know if you realized but I didn’t actually say anything. I just provided a verbatim quote from R’ Akiva Eiger.

    jbaldy22:

    It doesn’t sound like he’s saying that being an asmachta (as opposed to a real limud) is the reason why they would be patur.

    #1034909

    jbaldy22
    Member

    Patur Aval Assur

    if the gemara is just an asmachta than the mekor for eating might be entirely different which would make it a mitzvas aseih shehazman gerama. It could be similar to the shitos who hold women are not mechuyav in shalosh seudos.

    #1034910

    Randomex
    Member

    Did anyone notice that my post can be interpreted in two ways?

    That was intentional. Randomex is brilliant.

    #1034911

    oomis
    Participant

    If women have a chiyuv to FAST, then they should also have a chiyuv to EAT. I don’t see a chiluk here.

    #1034912

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    jbaldy:

    R’ Akiva Eiger’s first tzad is that it is a mitzvas asei shehazman grama and he points out that whether it’s an asmachta or a real derasha. I.e. he is pointing out that you shouldn’t think that there is no din of zman grama on an asmachta. The tzad that they are not patur is that the mitzvah is stated in terms of fasting on the ninth and the tenth in which case they are taluy zeh b’zeh.

    #1034913

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Oomis:

    That’s the second tzad.

    #1034914

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    randomex: explain, please.

    #1034915

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    147, that’s pretty cool to make your own Hekeshim. I don’t think I’m up to that. In fact it says about those Mitzvos that they were said at the same time. Was this too?

    Oomis, since they are Mechuyav to fast they obviously must eat, but the question here is about the specific mitzva of eating which is different from the need to eat Erev Tisha B’av. This is a Mitzva which happens to coincide with the need.

    I would say that if it is an Asmachta that would be reason tip apply to Nashim as well. Derabanans don’t necessarily have the exemption of Zman Grama, at least not when the reasoning applies to Nashim as well.

    #1034916

    GG yekke
    Member

    rabeinu yona has 3 reasons for the mitzvah of eating on erev yom kippur. 1)Since you cant do vesomachtoh v’chagecho on yom kippur we do it on ever yom kippur. 2)To give us koach to fast for yom kippur (and its only a hechsher mitvah) 3) to show that were happy that we are getting a kapora

    the ksav sofer says l’fi r’yonas reasons, women are chiyuv.

    (lichoirah R’ akiva eiger is going lefi reason 2)

    #1034917

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And Succah is for ?????? ??????. does that make it a Chiyuv for Nashim? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???.

    #1034918

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Good work, HaLeiVi.

    #1034919

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oh, so you are here. It looked like I’d have to take over your job. Thanks.

    #1034920

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    not bad Oomis.. Joined them on the “other side”? Definitely have the “shprach”!

    (I imagine a Bubby, no – the Best Bubby, in the kitchen cooking up a storm erev Yom Tov, on the phone explaining some Gemara chiluk with the twirling thumb one hand, a spatula in the other..)

    #1034921

    Randomex
    Member

    GG Yekke – point!

    HaLeiVi:

    Oomis, since they are Mechuyav to fast they obviously must eat, but the question here is about the specific mitzva of eating which is different from the need to eat Erev Tisha B'av. This is a Mitzva which happens to coincide with the need.

    Now, let’s look back at what Oomis wrote:

    If women have a chiyuv to FAST, then they should also have a chiyuv to EAT. I don’t see a chiluk here. (emphasis added)

    HaLeiVi again:

    I would say that if it is an Asmachta that would be reason tip apply to Nashim as well. Derabanans don't necessarily have the exemption of Zman Grama, at least not when the reasoning applies to Nashim as well.

    Rabi Akiva Eiger:

    [????’ ??”? ?”? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??’ ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????]

    Rule of 3:

    And Succah is for ?????? ??????. does that make it a Chiyuv for Nashim? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???.

    If that’s in response to this

    1)Since you cant do vesomachtoh v’chagecho on yom kippur we do it on ever yom kippur. […]

    the ksav sofer says l’fi r’yonas reasons, women are chiyuv.

    you’re arguing with the K’sav Sofer.

    Screwdriver:

    The punishment can be mine or Popa’s. I could be saying that I came on for a specific reason, but one thing led to another, or that I had a valid reason to be on now, as opposed to him. Only one of these really makes sense, though – can you figure it out?

    #1034922

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    V’somachta v’chagecha are the wrong words. It’s kavod yom tov. (Simchas yom tov does not apply to r”h and yoh”k, see Tur siman 585 and even the rambam’s lashon of “ainan y’mei simcha Y’SEIRAH” does not necessarily mean that the small din of simcha comes from v’somachta v’chagecha.)

    Randomex: I can’t understand how you were referring to Popa’s punishment. Unless you don’t know what “now” means.

    #1034923

    Randomex
    Member

    “Now” is a word that designates the time when it is used. In the case of that now, it was about 3:30 on Erev Yom Kippur.

    #1034924

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The format of your post makes it look like you are trying to build a case. Not sure what it is, though.

    If the Chiyuv is Deoraysa then since we don’t go by Taamei Dikra we don’t change our decide Halachos based on the reason for them. In fact we assume that we never really know the while reason for a Mitzva in the Torah.

    If it is Derabanan, or Asmachta, then we do pay attention to the reason. This is why by Derabanans we say Af Hen Hayu Be’oso Haness. That is why woman are Mechuyav in Megilla and the Arba Kosos.

    This is a Talmid’s attempt to be Meyashiv a Rebbi’s Chakira, which is why I prefaced it with, “I would say.” The Ksav Sofer probably understand these reasons to be the complete reason, which means that he understands it to be Derabanan.

    #1034925

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    I am surprised no one mentioned that the Rambam, in Hilchos Yom Hakipurim, completely omits any mention of the mitzvah to eat on erev Yom Kippur. However, in Hilchos Nedorim, the Rambam discusses the halochos of a neder not to eat on Yom Tov, Chanukah, and Erev Yom Kippur! There is a fascinating Aruch Hashulchan (in hilchos Yom Kippur) that addresses this stira in the Rambam, and concludes that the Rambam in fact holds that there is not even a mitzvah d’rabonon to eat erev Yom Kippur.

    #1034926

    Sam2
    Participant

    daf: Yes, but we Pasken in Shulchan Aruch (and there is Kim’at no disagreement in any of the Achronim) that there is a Mitzvah to eat on Erev Yom Kippur. So while the Rambam’s Shittah might be interesting, it’s not relevant L’ma’asheh.

    (Pashut P’shat, by the way, is that the Rambam Paskens Tosefes Yom Kippur is D’oraisa from the Passuk of Mei’ever Ad Erev, so now there’s no Drashah left for eating on T’shi’i. It’s a Pele on the Mishnah B’rurah that he uses that same Passuk for both Dinim and seems to say both are D’oraisah.)

    #1034927

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Sam- agree with both your points. Was just sayin.

    #1034928

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    Tosfos says that aff hein doesn’t apply to sukkah since it is only for miztvos dirabonon.

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