Education Expenses should not be recognized as income regarding social services

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  • #1309777

    Haimy
    Participant

    The state is not ready to provide vouchers for private schools but at least the cost of tuition should not be counted as income in regards to Food Stamps, Section 8, & Medicaid. Is this something that can change?

    #1309798

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sure it can change. Lobby your state legislature to change the law.

    #1309799

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I know.

    #1309818

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Unless you’re a school, tuition is not income, it’s an expense. Do you mean tuition expenses should be deducted from income in determining eligibility for those programs?

    Joseph, at least some of the programs mentioned have Federal eligibility standards, so lobbying your state legislature won’t help.

    #1309827

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nu, so lobby Congress.

    #1309855

    Mammele
    Participant

    And while you’re lobbying congress, perhaps lobby that instead of only giving a tax credit for each dependent, they can base tax brackets on “per person” income, replacing the current single/married based income. That’ll make the tax brackets more complicated, but we do have computers nowadays.

    After all, I am planning/hoping to be rich one day in the near future…

    #1309869

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    So let me understand. One of the reasons why people need government help is due to our expenses (i.e. including tuition) but those very expenses that are paid by someone else should not be included in income for government subsidies?

    #1309871

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And while you are add it, can you add food, transportation and living expenses as well

    #1309877

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Those of us who pay lots of tax and tuition don’t necessarily believe:
    1. in school vouchers
    2. That you should get even more social service dollars because you choose to pay tuition for your children

    This is not a theocracy. I personally don’t believe that tax dollars should subsidize private education.

    I am an elected town official. I have to wrestle with the budget to make sure PUBLIC institutions run smoothly with the available tax dollars. I am not in favor of those tax dollars being cut so you can collect more freebies from the government.

    If you choose to live chutz l’aretz and want government providing, healthcare, housing assistance, utility subsidies, food purchasing assistance (BTW…Food Stamps is NOT the current program, it is called SNAP) then move to a Socialist country such as Sweden.

    I WORK very hard for my money and I resent the constant hands out attitude expressed by those who make a choice to live on the dole instead of working full time, providing for your family and learning after work hours.

    The social support network is supposed to be for temporary setbacks, not permanent subsidies for your lifestyle. Your mother only had to carry you for nine , the American taxpayers should not be forced to carry you for years.

    BTW>>>>I am a Democrat and Social Liberal, BUT I am a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE.

    #1309879

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    But the problem you will face is the very obvious argument that private education is a “luxury” (of course to us it isnt)

    A more palatable change might tbe to allow tuition to come from an FSA so can be pre-tax.
    Though again see Joseph’s comment

    #1309936

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Remember if yeshivas get vouchers, Madrassas’s will get them too and other religious schools as well

    And if vouchers do become legal, they will not pay for Limude Kodesh, but would pay for secular education and the state would have the right to dictate what secular education is taught

    #1309963

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Remember if yeshivas get vouchers, Madrassas’s will get them too and other religious schools as well

    Why should that bother me?

    And if vouchers do become legal, they will not pay for Limude Kodesh, but would pay for secular education and the state would have the right to dictate what secular education is taught

    They already do.

    #1309974

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So let me understand. One of the reasons why people need government help is due to our expenses (i.e. including tuition) but those very expenses that are paid by someone else should not be included in income for government subsidies?

    I don’t understand.

    #1309975

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And while you are add it, can you add food, transportation and living expenses as well

    The difference is that by law everyone is entitled to education. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be able to send to a private school for that. They do a better job on secular education than do the public schools.

    #1309976

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But the problem you will face is the very obvious argument that private education is a “luxury”

    All we’re asking for is what it would have cost them for our child to be enrolled in public school. We’re not asking to be reimbursed for extras or luxuries.

    #1309982

    yehudayona
    Participant

    DY, I’ve taught in both public schools and yeshivas. I disagree with your assessment that yeshivas do a better job of teaching secular subjects.

    #1309986

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Don’t look at a couple of schools. Look at the overall numbers.

    If a particular school doesn’t score well on standardized tests, let it be excluded. Public schools as well.

    #1309989

    Joseph
    Participant

    YY, do you think by 18 years old (if they even complete high school, given the NYC pubic school dropout rate) that the average pubic school kid in the Bronx or Queens knows math and English better than the average NYC Yeshiva student at 18?

    #1309992

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And, yehudayona, if you do want to look at specific schools, the schools I send to do a good job on secular studies.

    #1310008

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ctlawyer: Do you agree to tax credits for those attending private universities?

    #1310000

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Ah, what DY said is actually really interesting.

    I had actually assumed people were always suggesting that the goverment either pay in full for Yeshiva tuition or give a tax break for the full amount. Now, I think I understand a little more.

    If you live in a town in which $2000 of your yearly income goes to funding a public school that you don’t even use, why not get that money back to use on education. That’s what it’s for, right?

    I know the answer to my own question though. That would open the doors to everyone without kids opting to get the money back, plus everyone going the private schools. Those left sending their kids to public school would get hit with way higher taxes. In principle, I agree with CT Lawyer, but I don’t vote on principle so that’s irrelevant. I would always support the voucher system; frum yidden shouldn’t advocate for all of us having to spend thousands more per year just to satisfy a multiple century old document written by goyim (the constitution).

    #1310036

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “All we’re asking for is what it would have cost them for our child to be enrolled in public school”

    DY unless I misunderstood the OP that does not seem to be what he is asking for

    #1310079

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That would open the doors to everyone without kids opting to get the money back

    No, it must be used for your own child’s secular education.

    #1310069

    akuperma
    Participant

    The poster meant to say “as a deduction from income” rather than as “income.”

    Most but not all social services agencies take the view that before you ask for a handout, you should give up luxuries such as non-public education. Whether ownership of a car or a house is taken into account is similar.

    We should also remember that to the extent the government recognizes Torah education, it will also want to regulate and often in ways we find highly objectionable (remember the government, especially in “blue” states, regards opposition to certain behaviors we can’t talk about on YWN as being “hate crimes” against those who engage in such behaviors). We really should not be anxious to be “helped” by the government. Torah Judaism wants autonomy, not a seat at the table.

    #1310082

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    iacisrmma… I am not aware of any tax credit for attending university. Are you asking about tax advantages for repayment of student loans for a college education?

    If this is the case, until such time that the public colleges and universities have enough slots to accommodate all students seeking higher education, I believe the tax relief should e available to all students/families.

    #1310085

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY unless I misunderstood the OP that does not seem to be what he is asking for

    Correct, the OP is asking for even less than I am, assuming won’t get what I’m asking for.

    What I’m referring to is vouchers, is in place in some states, is fair, but would need a state constitutional amendment to become legal in other states.

    #1310095

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @NevilleChaimBerlin
    ” frum yidden shouldn’t advocate for all of us having to spend thousands more per year just to satisfy a multiple century old document written by goyim (the constitution).”

    On this Independence Day your comment is particularly offensive, and smacks of bigotry.
    If you don’t choose to uphold the Constitution, the door is open and you are free to leave the USA, this is not Czarist Russia and you don’t need to bribe your way across the border in the dead of night.

    Any individual is free NOT to avail themselves of publicly supplied institutions, but not free to avoid the cost of maintaining them.
    I don’t use any of the public swimming pools in my town, I’m not entitled to a tax break for using my own. I do use the public libraries and parks. The public health nurse at the town senior center has been very helpful with my MIL.

    Some states have specific school taxes. When I owned a cabin in the Catskills, I got a property tax bill from the town and a separate school tax bill from the county. All of the cabins in the development were strictly for summer use. No one lived there in the winter no water, heat, paved/plowed roads…but we paid school tax. Here in CT, the cost of your town school system is included in your town property tax bill. Society as a whole depends on a well educated populace and we have a duty to fund the schools.

    I don’t know your age and whether you ever attended a public school. I went to day school, but in my high school years, I attended public high school from 7 AM until noon and Yeshiva High School from 12:30PM until 6 PM. There were state required courses that I got in Public High School not offered in the Yeshiva High School. This included 4 hours of Physical Education per week including swimming instruction, higher levels of math and science, music and art, shop (woodworking, plumbing, electrical) which has been invaluable as a homeowner,
    You as a citizen have a vote in determining education expenditures, You are not prohibited from getting involved in politics and having a say in setting tax rates and policies. If you choose to isolate yourself from the greater community to live in, then you are bound by the rules set by the majority without a chance to affect change,

    #1310130

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CT lawyer

    I dont disagree with the gist of your point.

    However a point that does deserve mention (whcih I assume is part of the argument) Is that the NYC Public schools sytem cant handle us.

    Many are already struggling, and it isnt like they have a surplus of cash lying around. there are approximatly 100,000 kids in Yeshivas all of whom are entitled to education and who the system is nt read yto accommodate.

    All the more so when you factor in Kosher food (which correct me if Im wrong, but the I believe the public schools would have to provide).

    IT sint quite the same as swimming pools where if you dotn want to swim no problem. Kids must have an education, so We am being forced to pay for an education that the city knows full well we will not take nor can they provide if 100,000 of us where to say, ok public schools we are here.

    DY
    “Correct, the OP is asking for even less than I am”

    It sint about more vs/ less its about making a case for your point. And given that a private school is a luxury I dotn why it shouldn’t be included in taxable income (which is not at all what you are arguing)

    #1310083

    Haimy
    Participant

    Social services are meant to be a safety net for those who can’t make it on their own. I happen to fit that category, I work full time my wife works part time & we have B’H 9 children. Tuition & day camp is what’s sinking my financial boat. As long as the private school is no more expensive than public school I don’t see why the cost of education should not be calculated as an expense just like utilities or mortgage interest are.
    The government loses nothing by me sending to private rather than public school.
    For the safety & wellbeing of my children, I cannot send them to a public school. I don’t want them getting hooked on drugs, edited suicide & many other modern ills of western society.
    So after sending my kids to a safe school, I am just as financially needy as a poor homeless guy at the soup kitchen, am I less deserved of food stamps to feed my kids? Do I need to call Tomchei Shabbos?

    #1310148

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    CT, like I said, I agree with everything you say as far as politics are concerned except for the bit about the Constitution. But, the reality is, if I have several kids and vouchers will save me tens of thousands, you better believe I’ll vote for vouchers. What gave you the idea that I don’t vote? To the contrary, I think you’re squashing your own voice if you just vote based on interpretation of American, Constitutional values. Everyone should vote for their own selfish interests and the sum of all of those will come together to form a collective interest.

    As for the Constitution, I think it’s the height of absurdity to act like the Constitution actually protects any of your rights. If someone were to want to establish a totalitarian regime, a moldy piece of parchment is not going to stop them. The Manga Carta didn’t stop Cromwell, the Weimar Republic’s constitution didn’t stop Hitler. The idea is completely unsubstantiated. In fact, in recent years, the US Constitution has been used to squash popular interest like the in prop 8 situation in California, constantly in states where the voter base favors gun control, to say nothing of the 18th Amendment. So, I don’t believe the popular vote should be squashed for a centuries old document; do I belong in North Korea for that?

    PS. I live in CT too. Don’t worry, I don’t take any of this stuff home with me. I would absolutely vote for you if I had the chance.

    #1310164

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And given that a private school is a luxury

    The part which should be government funded isn’t a luxury by anyone’s definition.

    #1310182

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    why it shouldn’t be included in taxable income

    Because it’s not a luxury. Lots of things are deductable – certain housing, charity, X amount per child. Asking that X amount be increased based on the amount saved the government is quite reasonable.

    #1310185

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However a point that does deserve mention (whcih I assume is part of the argument) Is that the NYC Public schools sytem cant handle us.

    You’re making the same point I am – that sending kids to private schools saves the government $ – just from a different perspective.

    The nafka mina is if we did send to P.S., eventually they would build enough schools to accommodate.

    #1310194

    Mammele
    Participant

    CTL: I believe NY state has passed a law to fund college education for those earning under 100k, of course with many strings attached.

    #1310195

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY
    “Asking that X amount be increased based on the amount saved the government is quite reasonable.:

    We arent arguing. no need to look for one.

    My initial response was to the OP. who (as you agree) did not say what you did.
    (Unless when he said “cost of tuition” he meant the cost of the Public schools sytem proviidng our kids tuition, which is presumably less than the cost we pay to educate our children)

    #1310209

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (Unless when he said “cost of tuition” he meant the cost of the Public schools sytem proviidng our kids tuition, which is presumably less than the cost we pay to educate our children)

    I don’t think that’s true. Look it up.

    #1310233

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    From NPR: (5 year old article)

    “On average, it costs $10,615 to send a kid to public school for a year. (That’s federal, state and local government spending combined.)

    As the map above shows, that one number masks a huge variation. Utah spends just over $6,000 per student; New York and the District of Columbia over $18,000.”

    #1310239

    Joseph
    Participant

    The public schools spend more per kid than yeshiva tuition costs in the non-MO world.

    #1310243

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Interesting
    thanks . I stand corrected

    #1310275

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think even if we got “only” $6,000 per kid in vouchers (not the OP’s tax deduction), we could pretty much consider the tuition crisis solved.

    #1310393

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    mammele……………..
    giving a free college education by a state is NOT the same thing as Tax Credits which the poster wrote.

    My parents were born in NYC back in 1920. They both went to public college (CCNY and Hunter) for the cost of a subway ride. Even the textbooks were free….all paid for by the taxpayers of NYC. The free City University education disappeared in the 1970s when NY State had to bail out a failing NYC. The Financial Review Control Board was instituted and CUNY forced to charge tuition at SUNY rates.

    #1310399

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Ubibiquitin

    Public Schools HAVE to accommodate ALL residents who wish to enroll. During the baby boom and again during the white flight to the suburbs in the late 1960s many public schools went on double sessions. This made much better use of the buildings than having them sit empty from 2:30 PM on.

    As for having to supply kosher food to students..NO it is not a requirement. No student is forced to eat school lunch in public school, nor is forbidden to bring lunch from home (subject to restrictions such as peanut butter). The largest city in , Bridgeport, serves free lunch to all students. They do not serve any pork products, not because of Jewish students, but a growing Muslim immigrant population.

    #1310419

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTL: I am referring to the “Education Credits” (American Opportunity and Lifetime Learning Credits) filed with the 1040 on IRS Form 8863.

    #1310450

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There are drugs in private school too.

    #1311653

    yehudayona
    Participant

    DY, the OP wasn’t talking about deductions from income taxes, but about calculations for eligibility for safety net programs. I’d be very surprised if the amount one gave to charity would be included in those calculations.

    #1311652

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Regarding the quality of secular studies in yeshivas vs. public schools, I was making an apples-to-apples comparison. You certainly can’t compare the quality of education in a typical yeshiva to that in a typical NYC public school, where a large number of the students come from non-intact families, are not native speakers of the language of instruction, or come from cultures that don’t value education as we do. The public schools that I’ve taught in had none of these disadvantages, and the secular education was superior to that in the yeshivas I’ve taught in. Much of it has to do with the amount of instructional time and the attitude of the students towards secular studies.

    #1311658

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @iacisrmma
    As long as the publicly owned colleges and universities can’t accommodate all qualified students seeking admission, I have no problem with this credit being applied to private universities.

    As an example, youngest CTL daughter did a BSRN before planning to go to Law School. In the State of CT there are only 4 public universities that offer the degree and they admit only 40 students each per year. There are 5 private universities in CT that also offer the degree, admitting about 400 students per year. It is in the public interest to have Registered Nurses to meet health needs, so I have no problem with the tax credit.
    BTW, the CTL family does not avail themselves of this credit, so I am not biased in my opinion.

    #1311664

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When the government gives out money, they have the right to dictate under what circumstances the money is doled, If you dont like those conditions, you can try to change them, but you have no right to the money as is under the present conditions

    #1311687

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, the OP wasn’t talking about deductions from income taxes, but about calculations for eligibility for safety net programs.

    Understood, but most of the things I mentioned are factored into that as well (charitable deductions was a mistake to add).

    I’ll stand by my assertion that education expenses, when our paying for them saves the government money, should be deductable, and the net number when calculating benefits eligibility should factor it in.

    #1311696

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Regarding the quality of secular studies in yeshivas vs. public schools, I was making an apples-to-apples comparison. You certainly can’t compare the quality of education in a typical yeshiva to that in a typical NYC public school

    We do have other values, so secular education may not be the absolute best it could be, but it exceeds the average and certainly exceeds any minimum standards , so there’s no reason to exclude yeshiva provided secular education from being considered a legitimate basic expense. The fact that you mention how we value education as a reason to exclude it is somewhat ironic, don’t you think?

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