Eidah Chareidus and Chillul Shabbos

SJSinNYC,

I’m with you. The parking lot is not attracting cars as the cars were already there, but illeagally parked. The Eidah can’t shut down Yerushalayim, they don’t own the streets and non-Jewish tourists drive cars as well. I don’t see how this is chillul Shabbos

Truth be told, most of the Chareidi parties were willing to go along with it. Then the Eidah started the protests, and the Chareidi parties didn’t want to be seen as encouraging chillul shabbos. Ideally, there should be no chillul shabbos befarhesya. Most chareidi parties are willing to allow compromises because Israel is a secular state, and there is a limit to what they can hope for (see the Zionist quote thread). The protests have forced the chareidi parties’ hand into a frummer stance than they would have preferred.

Chaverim, from what i read, the chareidi parties were willing to let this go- you can’t fight every issue when the government is secular and not really interested in frumkeit. This is a Zionist government, not a religious one.

SJSinNYC: The very concept of the city being open (even if run by non-jews, its being done for the city authorities) “seems” to be the problem.

Or someone just thought of a good idea on how to keep the Baryonim off the streets and under supervision. There is what to be said on that for long shabbos afternoons. (not my idea)

When Barkat took office there was a mutual understanding between the chareidi and secular to keep the status quo in religious affairs, noone is looking for new battles to stop chilul shabbos but to open munipical parking lot is going against it. By the way its not only the eidah rav elyashav also said that there is no room for compromise and so did the gerrer rebbe. Also there were ads from the city of yerushlayim inviting people to come spend their shabbos afternoons in Jerusalem r”l (it didn’t mean by the Kosel or Mea Shearim) and thats why they want more parking lots.

It is understood that with the irreligious in charge, and Moshiach not here, you can’t close every street for Shabbos. They close a few of the ones that pass through Chareidi areas (Sanhedria Muchevet, Bar Ilan, Geulah-meah she’arim ,etc). When Hashem reveals His splendor, all Chilul Shabbos will stop.

BS”D

I only hope that the demonstrators remember that hakol kol Yaakov vehayadayim ydei Esav.

One of the present charedi politicians in the Y-m municipality is an amateur chazzan, and I remember walking with him on Bar-Ilan years ago during the Shabbos battles when he suddenly sang out “Shabbos hi milizoik” at a group of “shababnikim” who were loitering and waiting to scream ‘Shabbos’ at the odd passing vehicle.

That pretty much sums up the attitude of normal charedim toward the extremists (remember what the words after Shabbos hi milizoik are and you’ll know exactly what I mean).

BS”D

The only type of legitimate protest I could see is a calm and organized reading of tehillim or even a public sholosh seudos/pirkei avois shiur(im)/singing of zmiros near the areas of contention.

But the moment you even start organizing a demonstration, especially in EY, kids and hotheads take over.

Kilobear, you and your ideas. Very practical and very probable 😉

Chaverim- Rav Eliashiv Shlit”a usually also includes a statement not to make a chillul Hashem. Hotheads were one of the reasons the Brisker Rav rarely went to any protests.

BS”D

The problem is that ‘we all look the same’ and these demonstrations get out of hand.

Remember that the ShaBaK and police have infiltrated the ranks of the shababnikim and that therefore the crowd is full of those who want to create a chilul Hashem, whether out of misplaced kanoius or, more often, davka to make us look bad.

The only way for these demonstrations to work without chilul Hashem is for a calm group to create a kiddush Hashem by demonstrating in one tightly packed spot, making sure that all who are there agree to learn, say Tehillim, sing together, or otherwise make it clear that they are not part of any violence.

BS”D

Since it is very clear that the Gedoilim shlit”a do not endorse violence, hopefully enough of those who are there and are clearly following Daas Torah will show up. This will make the shababnikim and plants stand out as the sore thumbs which they indeed are, and then it will become clear that the violent ones represent nothing.

I haven’t been to a demonstration or even passed one in ages. What do most demonstrators do? The last one I saw was way back when on Bar Ilan and very little happened at least where I was which was not far from Shamgar. I’ve never been to a demonstration at Kikar Shabbos or other crowded points.

The real problem, the one I posted about earlier, was actually on Friday night, where yechidei segula of their own definition, and baryoinim according to anyone else’s definition, hung around in groups to yell at perhaps three passing cars per hour. And at that time, the problem cases were nothing like the hooligans of today.

BS”D

Looks like I confused the official demonstration with some possibly not sanctioned demonstrations that are continuing. I had heard only about the Friday night demonstration which indeed was as I described it. I have no idea what is going on now, who is behind it and whether press sensationalism is as much to blame as the hotheads themselves for present reports.

Anyone in Y-m now? I can’t and don’t want to reach my friends on Sunday which is a work day.

BS”D

But just think of what would have been accomplished if the Shabbos morning demonstration were as quiet as Shabbos day, and had included a public kiddush or shalosh seudos to which the police and chilonim were also invited.

That was the way of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA (who was there for every policeman who arrested him and was fondly remembered by many who disagreed with him), Reb Aryeh Leib Levine, and every other tzaddik going back to Avraham Avinu who wanted to get Yidden to fear Hashem and keep His Torah.

Just one thing – sadly, we must make sure any wine we use at such a public kiddush is yayin mevushal because many of the policemen of today are not Jews, but the very descendants of Russian and Ukrainian pogromschiki who the medine was supposed to protect us against. Some have the benefit of phoney giyur, some not even that. All of that contingent hate us even more than the goyim who remain here in the FSU hate us.

But show the real Yidden, the amcha, the descendants of the boys whose payos were cut off and who are only doing this work out of a mixture of brainwashing and need for parnosso, what real Yiddishkeit is and they’ll come back in droves.

BS”D

But which demonstrations? Friday night was clearly an endorsed rally and a kiddush Hashem. Was Shabbos day an endorsed rally that became a mess when the hotheads took over? Then again the arrest toll apparently was in the low double digits, so it could be that the press exaggerated things as usual.

And would the gedoilim shlit”a have minded had someone done what I suggested? I highly doubt it, to put it mildly. Getting a parking lot closed and showing that Yerushalayim is Ir Hakodesh is crucial, but getting more people to keep Shabbos is even more important. Imagine if the only ones who wanted the lot open were a thousand or so died in the wool chiloniim and some Arabs because everyone else would be convinced that Shabbos and holiness were more important than tourism revenue? Barkat would not listen to the extremist chiloniim for a moment and they would become the new shababnikim, the ones despised by all sane residents of Ir HaKodesh Y-m.

Nevertheless, I continue to believe that many of the hotheads are shababnikim in the pay of and or led by police informers who want to make the rallies get out of hand.

Joseph – or rather josephf – Shalom and Welcome Home

But why are you now nameless?

Will Hill: I think you’re wrong.