June 24, 2009 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #589951
I’ve been following the news stories about Eidah Chareidus protesting the opening of parking lots on Shabbos. I’m trying to understand what their objection is if:
1) The parking lots will be run by non-Jews
2) No money is exchanging hands
3) You are not encouraging any Jews to drive on Shabbos
Can someone explain how this will increase chillul Shabbos? Is it just seeing the extra cars?June 24, 2009 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #648631gavra_at_workParticipant
SJS: The city runs the lot (from what I can see). If the lot is “open”, then the city is open for business on Shabbos.
At least that seems to be the claim.June 24, 2009 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #648632lesschumrasParticipant
I’m with you. The parking lot is not attracting cars as the cars were already there, but illeagally parked. The Eidah can’t shut down Yerushalayim, they don’t own the streets and non-Jewish tourists drive cars as well. I don’t see how this is chillul ShabbosJune 24, 2009 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #648633
3) You are not encouraging any Jews to drive on Shabbos
SJS: You ARE encouraging Jews to drive by making it easier to park (i.e. having a convenient parking lot available on Shabbos in Yerushalayim, which is obviously the mechallel shabbos Mayor’s goal in opening this lot.)
For that reason alone (we’ll leave the others aside for the moment) this is a non-negotiable issue and Klal Yisroel will fight this machla tooth and nail without cease, until the situation is rectified appropriately.June 24, 2009 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #648634
Truth be told, most of the Chareidi parties were willing to go along with it. Then the Eidah started the protests, and the Chareidi parties didn’t want to be seen as encouraging chillul shabbos. Ideally, there should be no chillul shabbos befarhesya. Most chareidi parties are willing to allow compromises because Israel is a secular state, and there is a limit to what they can hope for (see the Zionist quote thread). The protests have forced the chareidi parties’ hand into a frummer stance than they would have preferred.June 24, 2009 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #648635
Chaverim, I do not believe you are encouraging Jews to drive on Shabbos.
To explain what I mean:
If the roads of Jerusalem were CLOSED on Shabbos and you would reopne them, that would be encouraging Jews to drive. After all, the Jews of Jerusalem could now move their cars.
Giving people a place to park is not an invitation to drive. Any Jews who would be driving, would be driving regardless.
GAW, but without payment and non-Jews running it, how is that chillul Shabbos? The city itself isn’t doing anything.June 24, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #648636
Chaverim, from what i read, the chareidi parties were willing to let this go- you can’t fight every issue when the government is secular and not really interested in frumkeit. This is a Zionist government, not a religious one.June 24, 2009 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #648637
SJ, if there was no parking lot, many would find it inconvenient to drive and stay home. By leaving a parking lot open you are indirectly enabling people to be mechalel shabbos. Again, not on the same level as the government directly being mechallel shabbos. It’s the same as the government allowing the pride parade to happen- they aren’t forcing people to be mishkav zacharniks, but such abominations shouldn’t happen in the palace of the King.June 24, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #648638gavra_at_workParticipant
SJSinNYC: The very concept of the city being open (even if run by non-jews, its being done for the city authorities) “seems” to be the problem.
Or someone just thought of a good idea on how to keep the Baryonim off the streets and under supervision. There is what to be said on that for long shabbos afternoons. (not my idea)June 24, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #648639shaatraMember
This is gonna be a major chillul Hashem.June 24, 2009 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #648640
Jothar, I don’t think they would stay home, just maybe drive somewhere different.
I’m surprised there isn’t a battle to close all city streets on Shabbos. That would at least make sense to me.
I guess its something I just won’t understand.June 24, 2009 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #648641oomisParticipant
Surprisingly, I agree with the more stringent view that many posters have voiced. it’s kind of how I felt about the binding a Christian “bible” issue. I would not want to be thought to be contributing in any way to someone else’s religious beliefs that run counter to the Torah. So even if the secular Jews (leave out the non-Jews for the moment) will be driving anyway on Shabbos, the government of the Jewish state does not have to make it easier for them to do so. Maybe someone on the fence about chillul Shabbos, would be swayed by this. I don’t know either way, but I am not in favor of this. Right or wrong, I hope this does not become another case that leads uneducated people to cry, “those crazy Jewish fanatics!”June 24, 2009 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #648642yeshivahmanMember
When Barkat took office there was a mutual understanding between the chareidi and secular to keep the status quo in religious affairs, noone is looking for new battles to stop chilul shabbos but to open munipical parking lot is going against it. By the way its not only the eidah rav elyashav also said that there is no room for compromise and so did the gerrer rebbe. Also there were ads from the city of yerushlayim inviting people to come spend their shabbos afternoons in Jerusalem r”l (it didn’t mean by the Kosel or Mea Shearim) and thats why they want more parking lots.June 24, 2009 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #648643
Also there were ads from the city of yerushlayim inviting people to come spend their shabbos afternoons in Jerusalem r”l (it didn’t mean by the Kosel or Mea Shearim) and thats why they want more parking lots.
I wasn’t aware of that. That puts a little bit of a new perspective on things.
Why don’t they protest the signs then? Or are they? If the signs say “Come spend your Shabbos afternoon in Jerusalem” and they are posted in areas where you cannot walk to Jerusalem, then that IS promoting chillul shabbos.June 24, 2009 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #648645
It is understood that with the irreligious in charge, and Moshiach not here, you can’t close every street for Shabbos. They close a few of the ones that pass through Chareidi areas (Sanhedria Muchevet, Bar Ilan, Geulah-meah she’arim ,etc). When Hashem reveals His splendor, all Chilul Shabbos will stop.June 24, 2009 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #648646
I used to think the protests were chillul Hashem. The lunatics who destroy property are, in fact doing so. But not everyone else. This is a world now which easily accepts Muslims being offended by everything remotely seen as being anti-Islamic and getting their way. Ironically, the multiculturalism of the world and its need to bend over backwards to soothe Muslims makes these Ultra-Orthodox positions understandable.June 24, 2009 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #648647
I only hope that the demonstrators remember that hakol kol Yaakov vehayadayim ydei Esav.
One of the present charedi politicians in the Y-m municipality is an amateur chazzan, and I remember walking with him on Bar-Ilan years ago during the Shabbos battles when he suddenly sang out “Shabbos hi milizoik” at a group of “shababnikim” who were loitering and waiting to scream ‘Shabbos’ at the odd passing vehicle.
That pretty much sums up the attitude of normal charedim toward the extremists (remember what the words after Shabbos hi milizoik are and you’ll know exactly what I mean).June 25, 2009 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #648648
Agreed, a600kb Most of my chareidi cousins never go near demonstrations .They are mainly for leyerdikers or American yeshiva bochurim looking for a good time. The Chazon Ish ZT”L authorized Shlomo Lorincz to write an article explaining that very point. Chillul Shabbos should bother us to the point of anger, but we shouldn’t act on it.June 25, 2009 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #648649
The only type of legitimate protest I could see is a calm and organized reading of tehillim or even a public sholosh seudos/pirkei avois shiur(im)/singing of zmiros near the areas of contention.
But the moment you even start organizing a demonstration, especially in EY, kids and hotheads take over.June 25, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #648650
Jothar: See today’s YW headlines. Rav Elyashev is calling on frum yidden to come to the rally.June 25, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #648651mepalMember
Kilobear, you and your ideas. Very practical and very probable 😉June 25, 2009 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #648652
I think this comes down to the old machlokis with regard to Kiruv:
With the intention of Kiruv, are you allowed (or even encouraged) to invite non-frum Yiden to your home for a Shabbos meal or Pesach Sedar knowing that they will drive and be violate Issurim?
How often does the food arrive a few minutes before Shabbos and you know that these non-frum delivery people are going back and traveling on Shabbos; but the Hechsher is tops, so enjoy.June 25, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #648653
Chaverim- Rav Eliashiv Shlit”a usually also includes a statement not to make a chillul Hashem. Hotheads were one of the reasons the Brisker Rav rarely went to any protests.June 25, 2009 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #648654
Jothar: Who is disagreeing? Go to the rally and do not cause a chillul Hashem. (This fact is pretty obvious.)June 26, 2009 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #648655
The problem is that ‘we all look the same’ and these demonstrations get out of hand.
Remember that the ShaBaK and police have infiltrated the ranks of the shababnikim and that therefore the crowd is full of those who want to create a chilul Hashem, whether out of misplaced kanoius or, more often, davka to make us look bad.
The only way for these demonstrations to work without chilul Hashem is for a calm group to create a kiddush Hashem by demonstrating in one tightly packed spot, making sure that all who are there agree to learn, say Tehillim, sing together, or otherwise make it clear that they are not part of any violence.June 26, 2009 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #648656
A6KB: Yet the Gedolim including Rav Eliashev shlita amongst others, in their great wisdom, called upon klal yisroel to participate in the demonstrations. I think their wisdom and judgment is greater than ours and we can rely upon their calls. Obviously they considered any potential chilul Hahshem aspect, did their utmost to minimize it, and yet feel it is most important to participate in the demonstration to protect Shabbos nevertheless.
Obviously saying tehilim can and should be done in addition to the above.June 26, 2009 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #648657
Since it is very clear that the Gedoilim shlit”a do not endorse violence, hopefully enough of those who are there and are clearly following Daas Torah will show up. This will make the shababnikim and plants stand out as the sore thumbs which they indeed are, and then it will become clear that the violent ones represent nothing.
I haven’t been to a demonstration or even passed one in ages. What do most demonstrators do? The last one I saw was way back when on Bar Ilan and very little happened at least where I was which was not far from Shamgar. I’ve never been to a demonstration at Kikar Shabbos or other crowded points.
The real problem, the one I posted about earlier, was actually on Friday night, where yechidei segula of their own definition, and baryoinim according to anyone else’s definition, hung around in groups to yell at perhaps three passing cars per hour. And at that time, the problem cases were nothing like the hooligans of today.June 27, 2009 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #648658
I heard the demonstration went over very well B”H. Shows that when it is a cross community effort endorsed by gedoilei Torah of all communities then things are done right.June 28, 2009 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #648659
Looks like I confused the official demonstration with some possibly not sanctioned demonstrations that are continuing. I had heard only about the Friday night demonstration which indeed was as I described it. I have no idea what is going on now, who is behind it and whether press sensationalism is as much to blame as the hotheads themselves for present reports.
Anyone in Y-m now? I can’t and don’t want to reach my friends on Sunday which is a work day.June 28, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #648660nmelssMember
I believe the authorities are starting to realize that this is an issue klal yisroel takes seriously and won’t back down from. Otherwise what occurred this week will occur every week indefinitely until the parking lot is closed.June 28, 2009 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #648661
But just think of what would have been accomplished if the Shabbos morning demonstration were as quiet as Shabbos day, and had included a public kiddush or shalosh seudos to which the police and chilonim were also invited.
That was the way of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA (who was there for every policeman who arrested him and was fondly remembered by many who disagreed with him), Reb Aryeh Leib Levine, and every other tzaddik going back to Avraham Avinu who wanted to get Yidden to fear Hashem and keep His Torah.
Just one thing – sadly, we must make sure any wine we use at such a public kiddush is yayin mevushal because many of the policemen of today are not Jews, but the very descendants of Russian and Ukrainian pogromschiki who the medine was supposed to protect us against. Some have the benefit of phoney giyur, some not even that. All of that contingent hate us even more than the goyim who remain here in the FSU hate us.
But show the real Yidden, the amcha, the descendants of the boys whose payos were cut off and who are only doing this work out of a mixture of brainwashing and need for parnosso, what real Yiddishkeit is and they’ll come back in droves.June 28, 2009 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #648662
A6KB: Apparently the Gedolim disagree, as they [across the spectrum, Chasidish (i.e. Ger), Litvish (i.e. Rav Elyashev), and everything in between (i.e. Eida Hachareidus)] have called for these rally’s.June 28, 2009 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #648663
But which demonstrations? Friday night was clearly an endorsed rally and a kiddush Hashem. Was Shabbos day an endorsed rally that became a mess when the hotheads took over? Then again the arrest toll apparently was in the low double digits, so it could be that the press exaggerated things as usual.
And would the gedoilim shlit”a have minded had someone done what I suggested? I highly doubt it, to put it mildly. Getting a parking lot closed and showing that Yerushalayim is Ir Hakodesh is crucial, but getting more people to keep Shabbos is even more important. Imagine if the only ones who wanted the lot open were a thousand or so died in the wool chiloniim and some Arabs because everyone else would be convinced that Shabbos and holiness were more important than tourism revenue? Barkat would not listen to the extremist chiloniim for a moment and they would become the new shababnikim, the ones despised by all sane residents of Ir HaKodesh Y-m.
Nevertheless, I continue to believe that many of the hotheads are shababnikim in the pay of and or led by police informers who want to make the rallies get out of hand.June 28, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #648664
A600KiloBear: You mean a rally for Shabbos that actually demonstrates the beauty of Shabbos? Hey, that’s a very clever and unique thought. You know what that means; you want a demonstration for Shabbos that doesn’t cause Chillul Shabbos. Interesting.June 28, 2009 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #648665AnonymousInactive
Joseph – or rather josephf – Shalom and Welcome Home
But why are you now nameless?June 28, 2009 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #648666AnonymousInactive
What do you mean welcome home? it is not as if one of our great CHAVERIM really left us.June 29, 2009 12:32 am at 12:32 am #648667
Will Hill: I think you’re wrong.
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