“Eisav Sonei LeYaakov”

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  • This topic has 26 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 6 months ago by ujm.
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  • #2030368
    Leiby Wasser
    Participant

    The above is commonly quoted as meaning that every non-Jew in history hates every Jew in history, with no possible exceptions. Some even add, it says “halachah”, meaning there can not be any exceptions! My problems with this understanding are: 1) R’ Shimon b. Yochai who said this quote was discussing Eisav ben Yitzchak Avinu and his brother Yaakov Avinu. Who said this has to extend to every non-Jew and every Jew ever? 2) In that very quote R. Shimon b. Yochai is saying that here there was an exception, and Eisav truly had mercy on Yaakov! I should add that some academics say tht the word “halachah” is a printing error; it should read “halo”.

    #2030577
    ujm
    Participant

    Eisav is the zaida of European Goyim. Expect them to act as Eisev.

    #2030573
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Don’t assume that his actions are altruistic without self interest as by Yisro, vayichad, even when happy was not fully happy until ten generations.

    #2030586
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    מעשה אבות סימן לבנים

    #2030674
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    It means that every non jew has an inclination in his or her heart to hate Jews. It is a natural tendency which they can overcome if they choose. Hashem put it in their yetzer to hate us because our reality is one of galus. There’s no rhyme or reason. It’s simply a natural urge for them.

    #2030788
    crazykanoiy
    Participant

    It does not mean that all non Jews hate Jews. It does not mean that non Jews always hate Jews at all times and it does not mean that every non Jews has a secret inner hatred of Jews. Rav Eliyahu Henkin zt”l refers to such talk as silly against the Torah and plainly untrue.

    #2030806
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    For those yidden whose daily lives involve working and interacting with non-Jews, it would be both dysfunctional and psychologically harmful to walk around with the belief that your colleagues are all closet-antisemites.

    #2030848
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Be vigilant not to get cheated as Gedalya ben Achikam should have been.

    #2030826
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It could be of jealousy as the Kli Yakar says in Parashas Devorim on penu lochem tzafana, to be hidden in galus and to incite them.

    #2030882
    ujm
    Participant

    Virtually every Goy would push a button to immediately and permanently rid the world of Jewish beliefs/practices, if not of Jews themselves, if he absolutely knew he could get away with it with zero consequences.

    #2030936
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Yaaros Devash asks on the megilla, because their dasom, rules, are different destroy them personally? So he says that Haman asked on the dasam to get destroyed which the king agreed on but he changed the text referring to the Jews.

    #2030941
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Is that something you must believe?

    #2030947
    yehudis21
    Participant

    1. I don’t know why my post was deleted. Seriously, you moderators need to reevaluate what you consider “out of bounds”.

    2. ujm, first of all: That is an idiotic statement, but not one I’m surprised you’d make. Secondly, it’s quite obvious from your opinions that you would do the same in reference to pushing a button to get rid of “goyim”, so you are no better than them.

    #2030969
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ” ujm, first of all: That is an idiotic statement, but not one I’m surprised you’d make”

    Yehhudis” There is a button on the upper right hand corner of the homepage which you can push to immediately get rid of idiotic posters but the process involves having to toivel your computer and in some cases, its not “permanent’ and the poster ultimately reappears, sometimes under a new screen name.

    #2031064
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadolha, does the impracticality of a belief in a given circumstance invalidate it? If something is true, then it is – whether or not you should focus on it, is a different story. It is true that my entire body is 99% empty space, because the space between particles of atoms is such. If I were to think about that all the time, I’d go nuts, but it doesn’t mean it’s not true.

    kanoi, Where does rav henkin say that?

    On the contrary, aside from what the seforim say on the matter, that halacha yeduah is just that – a halacha, a law as immutable as shabbos and kashrus….we see it בחוש. Before the Holocaust, we didn’t see every goy seething and wanting to kill jews, but when the gezerah was carried out, the inner hatred was awoken and all manner of gehinnom came out. Friendly neighbors turned jnto torturers. Close friends became informants. We should adopt the slogan “never again” to refer to this….never again should we fall into complacency, pretending that goyim don’t hate us. The bais halevi says that when Jews don’t make kiddush (separating ourselves) goyim make havdalah, by force.

    #2031069
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    My father lived in a a southern state for a long time; there was a very tiny community, one orthodox shul with barely a minyan. One day a friend of his announced his engagement to a non-jewish woman. She seemed like an archetype Southern woman; very refined, hospitable, and personable. The rabbi warned him that at some point, when there will be an argument, she’ll show her true colors…and כך היה. She got into a heated fight with him and eventually called him a kike. He got the message, left her and eventually became a baal teshuva.

    #2031079
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ” If I were to think about that all the time, I’d go nuts, but it doesn’t mean it’s not true…”

    But if its NOT true, which I believe to be the case, than you have a special problem if you are are still fixated on it. Yes, there are goyim who are closet-antisemitim but I don’t think its the large percentage you make it out to be, much less “ALL”.

    #2031083
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Of course not all goyim hate Jews. But all have the inclination to hate us, and most probably do on some small level. That doesn’t mean it has to be that way

    #2031100
    ujm
    Participant

    “Eisav Sonei LeYaakov is as real today as ever. Only a fool world deny that.

    #2031099
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadolha, i was addressing your stated point. Moving on to your disagreement with the premise of my position is disingenuous

    #2031259
    Leiby Wasser
    Participant

    Thanks everyone for your responses. May questions were: 1) Whoever says it was ever meant to apply to all non-Jews and all Jews, rather that just Yaakov and Eisav themselves, and 2) Why can’t there be exceptions, in the very context of that Medrash R’ Shimon b. Yochai is saying that there was an exception! It is true that many non-Jews in the Holocaust turned on their former friends and neighbors, but what about those few who actually helped Jews, often at the risk of their lives? Did they also hate all Jews? And what about a non-Jew in the other end of the world who has never met a Jew in his life, and doesn’t even descend from Eisav? Does he also hate all Jews?

    #2031344
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    There are definitely exceptions! We’ve had many ohevei yisroel throughout the generations; sugi hara, schindler, bomberg(the man who printed shas), many others, just those 2 come to mind

    #2031365
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Some points:

    The words in this Medrash are indeed about the guy Eisav. For some reason, we’re all aware that this has been taken as a generality.

    We all know there is such a thing as חסידי אומות העולם, and there’s no reason to think that it is a handful in a century. And if there are חסידי there are likely some that are just below that as well.

    On the other hand, western cultured people are formal and know how to behave, but this doesn’t inform you what they’ll say in private. Sometimes it can come out after a long time.

    In essence, it isn’t far from what we find that it is called Har Sinai because משם ירדה שנאה לעולם. We find in מסכת ע”ז the opposite: that there is a secret admiration. We do see that the world is obsessed with us, one way or the other. And so, we aren’t looked at passively. Most people have opinions about the Jews. Either we are respected or repulsed. It is often both. (Just like a man hates his conscience…)

    While Europe is understood to be a continuation of Rome, and by extension a part of Eisav, America might be different. Baruch Hashem, we never had anything close to what our grandparents went through. And in Europe today you still feel the hate.

    In closing, the term doesn’t have to be a general rule for all time, or has been taken that way by many and that’s how we are aware the quote, and it isn’t a large leap from what we find elsewhere.

    #2031362
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What makes you say that Bomberg was a Ohev Yisrael? I would imagine he was a Ohev Betza.

    #2031356
    ujm
    Participant

    Avira, was Bomberg doing for reasons greater than it was good business?

    #2031377
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I can’t source it; it’s what i always heard from my rebbeim…i can do a little digging on the matter and post if I find something

    #2031393
    ujm
    Participant

    There’s no doubt that the printing press did a huge amount to preserve Seforim Hakedoshim.

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