El Al Has Flights On Shavuos!

Home Forums Rants El Al Has Flights On Shavuos!

Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #617669
    Pinchas
    Participant

    How can this happen? I thought El Al was supposed to be Shomer Shabbos? We live in Eretz Yisrael and we booked tickets for an upcoming simcha in NY. The agent was really pushy. In any case after we booked we checked the date more carefully and I couldn’t believe it but the flight was on the second day of Yom Tov. Yes, there is no second day Yom Tov in EY but this flight actually lands in JFK like 4pm in the afternoon, well before Yom Tov goes out! How can this be allowed? So we had to cancel the flight (to reschedule they charge $190 a ticket!) and El Al is still charging us a 300NIS cancel fee. Chutzpah! (Yes, it was our mistake but I never expected a Shomer Shabbos airline to have flights on Yom Tov.)

    I’m very upset at El Al right now! And I don’t understand how this is allowed after they reached an agreement with the charadim to be Shomer Shabbos…

    #1151660
    old man
    Participant

    News flash: In the Torah and in Eretz Hakodesh, there is no second day. Period. There is no prohibition against flying out of EY on a day of chol and landing anywhere else. El Al is not obligated to honor your habit of keeping two full days in EY. Sit in JFK until the day is over and then have someone pick you up. Frum people do it all the time. Ask the poskim here in EY about this and that will be the answer you get.

    In any case, next time look at a Hebrew calendar before you book a flight. It’s the calendar of the Jews that determines how we live, not the calendar of the goyim.

    #1151661
    Pinchas
    Participant

    Who said I keep two days in Eretz Yisrael. I keep one day for over 10 years since moving here. Maybe stop being so nasty?

    And here’s a news flash for you. We did look at a Hebrew calendar and the ones in Israel don’t have a second day printed on it… but we can’t sit in an airport for 8 hours with an 8 week old baby.

    Furthermore I disagree with you. I think it is quite problematic for El Al to land in areas where it is still Yom Tov. At the very least passengers should be warned about that and they should refund all our money when we need to cancel rather than El Al stealing 300NIS.

    You have a nice day too old man.

    #1151662
    shuni
    Participant

    I feel your pain.

    Elal sadly is not a ‘frum’ airline, it’s a secular israeli airline.

    It’s naive, unfortunately, to think that Elal deeply respect halacha, just as it’s naive to think all resturants in Israel are kosher or that all shops close in Israel on shabbos. Elal frequently lands just before shabbos, or takes off so soon after Shabbos that you couldn’t get there if you kept shabbbos.

    I stopped flying Elal when i was prevented from davening maariv, privately in a corner, in an Elal lounge at Heathrow while waiting for a flight- ‘we don’t allow praying here’

    oldman- your cynical answer lacks empathy and is unnecessarily sharp. Pinchas is raising a real point here thaT caused him pain and financial loss.

    #1151663
    Yidesh_kup
    Participant

    If you don’t keep two days Yom Tov than what is the big deal. I assume that the pilots don’t keep 2 days Yom Tov….and flying/landing in America isn’t a chilul Yom Tov for either you or them.

    I see no reason why you had to cancel and certainly no reason for El Al to change it for you at no charge.

    #1151664
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Why is el al obligated to keep yom tov sheini, when no other israeli is obligated to. Poor planning on your part, does not make el al a thief.

    #1151665
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A ben E.Y. is not allowed to do m’lacha in ch”l on Yom Tov Sheini b’farhesia. I’m not sure if this qualifies as b’farhesia.

    #1151666
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: “befar-esjeh” means before -at least- ten Jews. JFK is not exactly a place where frum jews will congregate on “yom tov sheni”

    #1151667
    old man
    Participant

    If you don’t keep two days, there is no halachic issue, none at all. Don’t blame El Al. On the seventh of Sivan, Jewish calendars in Israel say Isru Chag, because it is a yom chol. They even discuss whether to say Lam’natzeach. Why should they print that it is the second day of yom tov? There is no second day. You attack El Al for having flights on yom tov, but the flight is not on yom tov.

    Furthermore, you seem to expect El Al to provide entertainment for your eight week old for half a day in the airport. Here’s some old man advice. Feed the child, let him/her sleep on you or your wife, or a stroller. The baby will manage. He/she is eight weeks old and doesn’t really care where it is.After all, you were just stuck in an aluminum tube for almost 12 hours and seemed to manage.

    When you attack El Al because they aren’t sensitive enough to your personal interpretation of chareidi coalition agreements, you have to back it up. When you unjustifiably attack an institution, don’t expect everyone to be empathetic. Too bad you cancelled your tickets, you would have had a nice minyan for mincha-maariv in JFK.

    #1151668
    Pinchas
    Participant

    Apushatayid, as DaasYochid said israelis are not allowed to do m’lacha in ch”l on Yom Tov Sheini.

    DaasYochid, would you not agree that leaving JFK airport on the second day of Yom Tov with a car or even a taxi would qualify as b’farhesia?

    Basically you are forced to remain in the airport according to everybody (and possibly without even passing border control even).

    And rabbiofberlin, I’m not so sure why you don’t think an airplane flown by a Jew that flies right over The Five Towns (with well over 10 Jews) on Yom Tov Sheni for all to see doesn’t qualify as b’farhesia.

    There was an agreement that El Al would respect the sanity of Shabbos and Yom Tov and it just seems like they are ignoring the agreement.

    #1151669
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Who said I keep two days in Eretz Yisrael. I keep one day for over 10 years since moving here.”

    El Al has been in E’Y for longer than 10 years, they also dont keep a second day.

    “Maybe stop being so nasty?”

    Stop being so childish.

    “And here’s a news flash for you. We did look at a Hebrew calendar and the ones in Israel don’t have a second day printed on it…”

    Which is why el al has flights on this day.

    “but we can’t sit in an airport for 8 hours with an 8 week old baby.”

    How is his is El Als problem? You should have thought of that before scheduling your flight. Perhaps check into an airport hotel for the day. Again, solutions exist, but it is not El Als responsibility to find one for you.

    “I think it is quite problematic for El Al to land in areas where it is still Yom Tov.”

    Do any poskim agree with your psak?

    “At the very least passengers should be warned about that”

    About what? Why should El al remind you it is Yom Tov sheini in c’l? Why should El Al care?

    “and they should refund all our money when we need to cancel rather than El Al stealing 300NIS.”

    They didnt steal your money. you made a mistake in judgment, whether or not they comply with your request is a matter of their internal customer service policies, not your convoluted “psak”.

    #1151670
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: ROB is quite right. JFK is, to quote the Shulchan Aruch, Michutz Latchum.

    #1151671
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Apushatayid, as DaasYochid said israelis are not allowed to do m’lacha in ch”l on Yom Tov Sheini.”

    On Rodney street in the middle of the afternoon. The el al terminal at JFK or Newark is not bifarhesia.

    #1151672
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “(and possibly without even passing border control even).”

    Why? there is no issue melacha for you, and for the non jewish terminal employees, they are permitted to do melacha on yom tov sheini.

    #1151673
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “There was an agreement that El Al would respect the sanity of Shabbos and Yom Tov and it just seems like they are ignoring the agreement.”

    If you truly believe this, then boycott them. Book your tickets with United, or Alitalia.

    #1151674
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, I said I’m not sure. Here are some of the questions which lead to my doubt, despite it possibly not technically being in the t’chum of the NYC yishuv:

    Do there need to be 10 frum Yidden, or any Yidden? Are there 10 Yidden in JFK? Do people in the 5t see the name of the airline on incoming planes? Is the fact that the schedule is public information enough to make it b’farhesia or does there need to be an actual sighting? Even if the above were problems, would the fact that El Al is known to be an Israeli company negate that? Are there El Al employees who live in ch”l being mechallel Yom Tov and is that the airline’s issue? Would non frum passengers who live in ch”l be an issue for the airline?

    #1151675
    Meno
    Participant

    Sam2, is it actually? (just asking, not challenging)

    #1151676
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meno, I believe we generally do accept that an airport is chutz l’tchum, but as I wrote, I question whether that applies to El Al in JFK.

    #1151677
    charliehall
    Participant
    #1151678
    Pinchas
    Participant

    Yes, in Cederhurst planes coming into JFK are only a few hundred to a few thousand feet high at some points and the company painted on the wings are very clearly legible.

    Even if there are no halachic problems, and I believe there clearly are halachic problems, I remain disappointed at El Al.

    #1151679
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: The reason for the Issur is that Devarim Shenahagu Bahem Issur Ee Atah Rashai Lehatiram Bifneihem (I might be a word or two off in that phrase). Since Yom Tov Sheni is a Minhag Bechul Tefutzos Klal Yisrael (outside of E”Y), the Shulchan Aruch rules that it is Assur to do Melacha anywhere within a Techum that Jews live. It seems Pashut that non-Frum Jews don’t count here, because they are not Noheg Issur on Yom Tov Sheni. This isn’t about Maris Ayin or Chashad. The point is that it’s Assur to be Noheg Heter in front of someone who is Noheg Issur. It’s not a Din in “Parhesia” like other things are.

    Now, your Ta’ana about people knowing the schedule is a pretty good one, but I don’t think it counts. Everyone knows that people in E”Y are Noheg Heter. That doesn’t count as being Noheg Heter in front of someone who is Noheg Issur. I hear a small Chiluk, but the point is the same. We know that our relatives/friends/whoever staying in a hotel outside of town aren’t keeping Yom Tov Sheni also, but that doesn’t count as being Meshaneh from the Minhag either. I don’t think it’s about knowledge. It’s about Mamash doing something in front of them.

    Again, your Ta’ana about El Al employees is a good one. I don’t know if that’s the airline’s issue or not. I hear both Tzdadim. But unless you want to Ta’ana that a flight attendant creates a problem of Ma’aseh Yom Tov (assuming you hold of such a thing, I think it’s a Machlokes Rishonim IIRC), then there is no issue for the passenger (if the pilot was a non-Frum Jew who lives in CHU”L, then it might be a problem).

    Pinchas: To answer your problem, look up if there is a hotel right by the airport that is not within (or near) the edge of the Five Towns. If there is, take a cab from the airport to there. There is no problem with that whatsoever (as long as you don’t have to go through the 5T to get to the hotel). Just pay for a room for 1 day and chill there until Yom Tov ends and you can enter the city.

    #1151680
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I remain disappointed at El Al.”

    So, fly Alitalia. When enough customers vote with their wallets, companies start to listen. Either way, you are the one who forgot about isru chag/yom tov sheini, not El Al. Be disappointed in yourself first, then worry about El Al.

    #1151681
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yom Tov Sheini K’hilchaso quotes R’ Shlomo Zalman and R’ Elyashiv as saying that yishuv Yisroel includes non frum.

    It is not only about maris ayin and chashad, but that is also a concern (although as I mentioned, maybe not here since its yadua that El Al is Israeli)

    The Mishna Berurah does use the term farhesia, but perhaps it’s not the same geder as other uses of the term b’farhesia.

    I think there’s a teshuvah from R’ Moshe about it.

    #1151682
    Pinchas
    Participant

    apushatayid, indeed. Why do you think I posted here? To inform the masses who may or may not care about El Al landing on Yom Tov. Also maybe someone at El Al will read the CR and care and do something? Or not.

    Either way it makes zero sense to rent a hotel as the cancel fee was 300NIS, a lot less than renting anything. We’ve already canceled and rebooked (with a different agent) on a later flight that lands when Yom Tov ends in New York so there’s no issue at all. Maybe I’ll write a letter to El Al and they’ll return the cancellation fee. (Ha!)

    Also I will not use this travel agent anymore.

    #1151683
    mobico
    Participant

    I know a R”Y who has flown this flight before, in order to start fundraising right after YO”T. He was once sitting in JFK on YO”T Sheni afternoon, listening to a Shiur through headphones, when he was approached by an older couple. “Rabbi, can we ask you a question? Our son is a Ba’al Teshuvah, and we thought that we can’t call him until tonight …” Of course, they were in the wrong, since they were in the airport on YO”T. The R”Y in question had done nothing wrong.

    #1151684
    Geordie613
    Participant

    I remember many years ago, El Al operated a flight in to and out of Johannesburg on Yom tov sheni. Johannesburg Beth Din refused to provide hashgocho for the El Al kosher kitchen for the flight, and put notices in the press alerting the very traditional Jewish community that it was in breach of halacha. If I remember correctly, about 20 passengers were aboard the 747 when it left back to Israel.

    #1151685
    apushatayid
    Participant

    geordie. i can understand why they wouldnt give the hechsher, but why would israelis be in breach of halacha for flying on yom tov sheini?

    #1151686
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Pinchas. I dont believe too many readers of this website who observe yom tov sheini would be found in jfk airport or would be interested in flying on this day. On the off chance there are a few, I guess your notice is well served.

    thanks.

    #1151687

    Nothing new about this. ELAL hasn’t been Shomer Shabbos for a while. Look at any Online Flight Tracker right now as Shabbos is about to begin, and you’ll see several ELAL Aircraft still up.

    #1151688
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Y.C. does shabbos begin for a person away from home when it is shabbhos in his hometown, or his the town he currently finds himself. So what, shabbos is starting in E’Y right now, it isnt starting right now in LA, Miami, London or Mexico City.

    #1151689
    Geordie613
    Participant

    apushatayid, It is assur for an Israeli in Chutz laAretz to travel on Yom tov sheni. Even b’chadrei chadorim, melocho is ossur.

    #1151690
    Sam2
    Participant

    Geordie: As has been discussed in this thread, that is not necessarily true.

    #1151691
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1151692
    Avi K
    Participant

    From “Penyanei Halacha” by Rav Eliezer Melamed

    ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????

    ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ?????, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???, ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? (????? ?, ?; ??”? ???, ?).

    ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????. ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????. ???? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???, ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???????, ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? (???’ ???”?, ?”? ???, ?).

    It would seem that according to all opinions a ben Eretz Yisrael can do actions which are only prohibited d’rabbanan, especially if no one knows that he is a frum Jew. Thus, if you wear a baseball cap and keep your tzitziot inside you can probably take a cab driven by a goy to where you are staying (or even better, if feasible, take public transportation, as being that the majority are goyim we say that it runs for them).

    #1151693
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It would seem that according to all opinions a ben Eretz Yisrael can do actions which are only prohibited d’rabbanan, especially if no one knows that he is a frum Jew.

    Source?

    #1151694
    147
    Participant

    Until the Ben Eretz Yisroel reaches a Jewish settlement in Chutz o’Oretz, s/he has no obligation on Yom Tov Sheni to abstain from Meleches Avodah.

    We did look at a Hebrew calendar and the ones in Israel don’t have a second day printed on it. More likely it had “Nosso” printed on it in conjunction with Shabbos Erev Shovu’os.

Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.