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A very interesting question came up in my onetime outdoor COVID, now regular Shed Shul minyan today. I started davening Mincha for the Amud today at my regular scheduled Plag Minyan. One of my regulars came in late, in the the middle to the end of the shtiller/quiet Shmoina Esreh. He said Ashrei while we finished up. Rather than let him say the Shmoina Esreh together with me, I had him become the Chazan instead of me. He then was able to say Kedusha, and he finished up as the Shliach Tzibur.
2 questions. 1: Is this “allowed”? 2: He said Elokai Netzor when he finished as the Shliach Tzibur quietly and then said Kaddish Tiskabel. We daven Sfard and don’t say Tachanun at Mincha.
Lets try and just concentrate on these questions as opposed to getting involved with the Tachanun debate. However if anyone wants to get into it with Tachanun, I will try and edit the topic?
Thanks in advance for all answers.Where in the world is there a reliable heter to skip tachanun entirely?
And why in the world would a sane person want to skip it? There are so many things one wants for and prays for, and the best way to receive them is through tachanun, That is exactly why the yetzer hara does all that he possibly can to prevent us from saying it!I don’t know the haladha, but i can offer two points:
1. Poskim say that the shtiler shemoneh esrei of a sha”tz is merely a preparation for the hoicher, and as such, many say that one should daven the nusach of the shul during not only the hoicher, but the shtiler as well.
2. Chazaras hashatz itself was instituted for the amrei haaretz who do not know how to daven properly.
When you began davening shtiler SE, you were doing so in your tole as shliach tzibur; if your SE was merely a preparation for your hoicher, then perhaps you were not yotzei to begin with.
Also, what can make this new person a Shat”z?
There are more fundamental problems here than whether ot not elokai netzur is said; it’s highly likely that neither you nor him were yotzei, though he probably is yotzei tefilah bedieved, as being quiet is not me’akev if i remember correctly.
You’re clearly qualified to answer these on your own, since you are greater than Dovid Hamelech because being מתחנן to your Creator is above your dignity
Avira, you don’t remember the mishna berura? What should someone do when he arrives at the end shemona esrei?
I think the moral of the story is don’t live in Monsey.
Also, there is an obligation to daven in beis kneses (not some gvir’s house) besides from davening with a minyanShimon, he’s supposed to daven word by word quietly with the shat”z. That’s not what happened here.
Forshayer , this case is not discussed in MB itself, but is in parentheses on the mechaber in seif 5, citing avudraham. The Shaar hatziun there cites prishah and pri megadim. I looked at the pri negadim, who says thar a person davening hoich counts for both him and the tzibur, and he says thet the person should say elokai netzur quietly afterwards…it would seem that the tzibur would have to wait for him to say it. I don’t have avudraham on me. After this I saw the magen avrohom (13) which seems to say that such a person needs to take 3 steps back to take his leave of the Shechina for his own prayers(since he didn’t daven shtil) “kegon elokai netzur,”….take from that what you will.
So your friend it seems would be yotzei everything, but he must take 3 steps back after the hoich.
However as for yourself…since you davened shtill as a sha’tz, there’s a good chance you can’t be yotzei if you don’t daven hoich afterwards, since the whole reason you’re davening shtil to begin with is to prepare for hoich.
But without seeing the avudraham i don’t know what to make of it….what case is he talking about where a person only davens hoich? I’ll look it up bli neder and update my post.
Very true.
But we small people must abide strictly to the Shulchan Aruch.
(Unless, perhaps, if one is davening In the same minyan, together with the Tzaddik who does differently.)Nowadays the main Shmoneh Esrei is the one the Shat”z davens to himself. This was told to me directly in response to a question I asked R’ Moshe Shternbuch Shlit'”a.
Mobic, what changed nowadays from the achronim?
1. There’s no reason to make him the Chazan. He should keep up with the Chazzan until after the second bracha and he can say kedusha together.
2. It seems to me that saying eloki ntzor as the shatz is not appropriate because it’s delaying the tzibur.
3. the reason many chassidim skip tachanun many times has to do with kaballah. The Arizal says that if you say nefilas apayim if you go down to the klipos and you’re not careful it can be quite dangerous spiritually. This is likely the reason that people say perek 6 instead of perek 25 like the Arizal did, but it’s mashma from the Arizal that it’s not dependent on the specific perek you’re saying. It’s better not to say it so much than to say it, go down to tumah and not know how to raise it up and end up getting mired in tumah. I’m sure the misnagdim will disagree with this, but nevertheless, this is what it’s based on.
mobico – I heard explicitly from R’ Yisroel Reisman that when Rav Dovid Feinstein was in Aveilus for his father, he Davened Mincha for the Amud at Ahi Ezer prior to giving a Shiur there. While he used his standard ha’avara, he Davened the Nusach of Edot haMizrach in both the quiet Shmoneh Esrei and Chazaras haSha”tz – with the reason being that (a) a Sha”tz is supposed to follow the Minhag haMakom for Nusach, and (b) the quiet Shmoneh Esrei is only a preparation/practice for the Sha”tz’s “main” Shmoneh Esrei – which is the one he says out loud.
an Israeli Yid
I think the difference in our time is that everyone has a siddur and can read, so noone is relying on the Schatz. I don’t remember where I read this.
We shouldn’t be too proud of ourselves, of course. The reason everyone can read in shul is because those who can’t read simply don’t come..
In a couple of shuls that I frequent – both chassidish – it is not unusual for a second person to take over at Chazaras Hashatz. They have several reasons for doing so:
1. They are both chiyuvim, so they split the davening.
2. The original baal tefillah doesn’t want to say Tachanun (such as on Friday and Sunday, when some never say it).
3. The original baal tefillah needs to go out (bathroom or leaving early).Note that the second baal tefillah wasn’t necessarily ready to go up at Yishtabach, which is why (in the last two cases) he didn’t do so in the first place.
I’ve never seen the second one say Elokai Netzor. I also never asked anyone for the rationale allowing this practice.
The poskim i quoted above, nosei keilim, seem to say unanimously that one who davened only as shat”z must say elokai netzur, or perhaps according to the nagen avrohom, a variant of a short supplication. Maybe nust yehiyu leratzon would suffice? I don’t know, but you can’t dismiss the nosei keilil with just the idea that you don’t see people do it when they’re doing something which on its face is an ad-hoc practice… was this done in a shul with a posek there at the time? Or just people davening minchah in a shul?
But in either case, taking over as shat”z after the first shatz davened shtil has yet to be shown as permissible… based on the above (did anyone here read my summation of the poskim? Or am i wasting my words?) It seems problematic, and if someone only davened hoich then they’d have to say something afterwards, the rationale being that one must first take leave of the Shechina – a regular shatz does this during the shtiller SE, and takes his leave of the Shechina on behalf of the tzibur by kaddish tiskabel. One who only davens hoich needs to take leave of the Shechina for himself, and after SE is the only time he can do that.
As for why it’s not tircha dtzibura(someone here raised this question) my guess is that there’s just no choice… One needs to take leave of the Shechina; it’s a very important part of davening, so what can he do?
I should mention that the poskim i quoted say to say elokai netzur quietly.
Avira – what has changed is that no one is relying on the Chazarah to be Yotzei. We continue it because it is the Tzurah of Tefilah as determined by Chazal, but since no one needs it to be Yotzei it is not the main SH”E of the Sha”tz.
IsraeliYid – this is for a different reason. One must Daven anything said out loud in the Nusach of the Tzibbur. Therefore, if one is not conversant, he must “practice” in the Shtiller SH”E. If one is, say, equally conversant in both Ashkenaz and Sefard, then he may Daven Ashkenaz in his Shtiller SH”E even though he is Davening for the Amud in a Shteibel that is Makpid on Nusach Sefard for the Chazarah (example taken from my own life, based on another Shailah I asked!).OP, that’s the way it is done.
The minhag of not saying tachnun at Mincha came about because the chasidim daven late.
reb e, no one knows for sure where it came from, because even when davening early, chasidim dont say tachanun and many skip it even during shacharis….they offer reasons like not being able to deal with the dinim and midas hadin that tachanun invokes…i also dont think that tachanun is a chiyuv m’ikar hadin – it says if you dont do it longer on mon/thurs it’s poretz geder…it’s possible that we acccepted it like a chiyuv, like maariv, but im not sure. either way i can hear them saying that theyre not fit to say it anymore.
I agree w/ Avira, this seems to be more than davening late, more not wanting to spend time on the sad issues and get to the tish faster. You can see this from various communities coming up with various ways to avoid T. Now, in normal circumstances, who would come out and change a thing like that. But as chassiddim were changing a lot of things anyway, T was diminished along the way.
PS maybe davening late was the way to make people stop saying T.
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