Embarrassed

We have a topic on this -we don’t need another one!

mikehall12382 — You said it. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I am quite disappointed at all this, not just this specific incident, but our behaviour collectively; the crimes that are committed, the militant behaviour, and what’s worse; all in the name of Yiddishkeit. And you think the non-Jews don’t notice all this? And HaKadosh Baruch Hu wants to answer our prayers? When we can get our act together, then maybe we will merit to see our prayers answered. What? The Navi told us (Haftorah for Shabbos Chazon) that G-d doesn’t want sacrifices from people who trample in the Temple, G-d wants us to be good to each other. There is a halakhic issue of Tznius? (Which I don’t think there is) Nevertheless, there are proper channels and mechanisms to address this issue. Not spitting, or slapping, or whatever physical action comes to mind by a few Hooligans.

Wake up — don’t we see all the tragedies from natural disasters taking place; floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, famines — literally earth shattering events. Don’t you think HaShem is sending us a message? You want to dismiss it because that’s taking place in Africa, East Asia? Don’t you think G-d wants us to do sincere repentance, improve our behaviour and change for the better?

I could go on about this, but I think the point is clear …

The guy who did the spitting, did something very untzniusdig, as well as disgusting. He could actually be accused of assault.

Health

Its a coffeeroom minhag to start repeat threads on the same topic…

Wow – there’s nothing left for me to say. I agree – mikehall, aries, r.t., oomis, and tahini – you said it all. when will we learn? this is not religion – it’s insanity. sinas chinam. do we really want moshiach? let’s act like it!

Feel free to disagree but I am strongly leaning towards the theory that the people who do this have serious mental imbalances and they shroud it with krum fake “frumkeit.” I think these people would be nasty if they were chiloni or Christian or anything else. They are just extreme people who probably should have seen a psychologist years ago but didn’t because its so taboo in “chareidi” families.

I think all of these types who get violent or spit should be arrested, subjected to a professional psychiatric evaluation and if found requiring therapy, given the necessary therapy until they are once again fit to live amongst society.

tahini -“Health I understand your reasoning, but I do not feel Jewish guilt is anything to with it, it is a sense of belonging to Klal Yisrael and hurting when things go wrong due to our long tradtions of infighting, it is nothing new, just horrendous to watch under a media glare.

But for me Klal Yisrael are one people, when I see demonstrators harrassing children, or police arresting charedi protestors there is a division between head and heart, you see, Health, those whose behaviour I loathe ar still part of me and my people. Hence the embarrassment and awkwardness, a jew is a jew.”

I understand your point, but it is only valid if you feel embarrassed about the M.O.’s walking around Not -Tzinus.

For some reason I don’t think you care about this – maybe I’m wrong. So you should be embarrassed that people live in the Holy Land and don’t keep Tzinus, Kashrus, Shabbos, etc. After you feel embarrassed about all these things then you can be embarrassed about a girl who got spit on.

adams -“But it’s not just the spitters and the cursers, it’s the whole system that decides that they are the real Jews and everyone else is a heretic. Here in Monsey, children call someone a Jew with a knitted Yarmulka a goy. So where do they learn this from? It’s a distortion and hijacking of Judaism and is totally unJewish to act this way. And if you object to the spitters, and the violent demonstations, then you are guilty of Sinas Chinam, I am told that I hate all Chareidim.”

You Do have Sinas Chinum and Hate Charedim -read your own first line -“it’s the whole system that decides that they are the real Jews and everyone else is a heretic”.

We in the Charedi world don’t determine who is Frum by their Yarmulka, in spite of some kids who like to start up with others for kicks. These kids don’t represent our philosophy. They also call fat people -“Fatso”.

This is an argument only in your mind -looking for any excuse to hate!

Our only determination is – do they keep the Torah or not? Not dressing Tzinus is against the Torah!

“All this poster Health has done is to try make sure I will never feel comfortable amongst Chareidim again.”

I never had this intention, but the truth hurts, doesn’t it?

“But it won’t work because I know many fine Chareidim, but it is time for Chareidim to stop feeling so superior to other Jews particularly those not CHassidic or outward looking Chardie.”

We (most) don’t feel superior to those that don’t dress the same as us, only to the people who don’t keep this Halacha and that (And they should know better)!

“Oh it’s only a few sure. It’s many more than a few and these have the support of many.”

Here you go again with your Outright Hatred and Bias!

“Yes I am also very embarrassed by the publicity and worse I fear the repucussions in Shomayim to these violent Chareidi acts.”

Why do you care about the Goyishe publicity? Because it’s a Chillul Hashem? It’s also a Chillul Hashem to be Mechallel Shabbos in Public. It’s also a Chillul Hashem to walk around Not dressed Tzinusdik in Public. Does these actions even bother you? And you should fear the repercussions on these actions in Shomayim -more than you fear the repercussions of a few spitters!

Health the publicity in the general media is upsetting not just because of the outside world, but most of all because of what it is doing to our world, with the relationship between different Jews becoming increasingly embittered and ugly.

There are many jews who have never dealt with frum Jews, people who once may have been open minded but are given images which can only negatively affect their ideas about what the frum world is about. These images are grotesque but thankfully isolated. The embarrassment I feel and share with others is not just about the gentile response, but most of all the Jewish response, the confirmation of unfounded sterotypes and preconceptions.

“One more than 1 occasion I have been not counted for a Minyan, (presumably) due to me wearing a colored shirt.”

Sam2 — I am so sorry to hear about that situation. I know what you mean since I had a similar reaction years back (not with davening) but with learning/chavrusa. I won’t forget that incident, that showed me the true colors (no pun intended) about some so called “frum” people in this world.

Olam HaFuch — What is wholesome became turned around and what is suspicious became honorable.

R.T.: The learning amuses me, actually. I used to learn in a Beis Midrash twice a week and was usually the only who wore colored shirts (I discussed it with the Rosh Yeshivah before and we worked out a plan I had). The people in the Beis Medrash were always shocked when I was able to discuss things and answer questions (at all, let alone just as well or better than many people there). People were still embarrassed to ask me things so they would come over and pretend to ask the guy sitting next to me, knowing that I would overhear and answer.

who is heath to decide who keeps the Torah or not and on this basis you decide that you hate this fellow Jew?

Please stop calling me a hater this is your specialty, to name call, perhaps you spend too much time thinking.

Please stop calling me a hater. This is what you do in every post about me. It makes you look pathetic.

No person has any right to judge another Jews if there skirts are too long or not.

You are clearly spending too much time on areas you should not be focusing on.

this is not representative of Torah at all. You are missing the point.

Have you heard of Ahavas Chinam, Darchei Noam, 70 faces to the Torah, middle path (don’t veer right or left). Your support of violent extremism is way off the mark of Judaism.

This extremism includes observing and focusing on a womans fashions, what she is wearing.

Sam2 –

I guarantee you that not a single shul in Lakewood would disqualify you for a minyan based on the color of your shirt.

Yitay: I am completely unfamiliar with Lakewood. This happened in Eretz Yisrael both times.

Health, the upset of seeing a Jew break or misunderstand the laws of kashrut or tzniut are nothing compared to the pain of seeing Jews burning up with hatred and bitterness against each other, sorry if this is not seen as appropriate, but it is a deep rooted instinct within me, and I suspect many other Jews feel the same.

If you see something inappropriate and cannot mediate gently or effectively, look away, if food is not kosher, do not eat, but to turn on to another person and cause them pain and fear is not acceptable to me. It is not mere embarrassment, it is a sense of foreboding and acute pain.

I remember an Israel where you could step onto a crowded bus, see a young charedi mother laden down with bags and kids, and watch those around, secular, frum, the whole lot move themselves to help, take the kids, smile, joke and give a seat. In other countries it is rare to allow a stranger to help your kid onto the bus, in Israel the sense of being one people meant that feeling of unity. Irrespective of differences.

I am a political cynic in my old age, and do not view Israel through rose-tinted glasses, but I cannot change my instinctive response to jewish disharmony.

I am not bashing Chareidim you keep repeating that lie.

If you are interested I daven on Shabbos in 2 different Lubavich Shules for many years. One Friday night and the other Shabbos day.

So please try to stop lies about me.

Means I daven in Nusach Ari, and I learn Chassidus to the extent it is talked about, one shule is not only talking about Chabad but general Chassidus.

That is why your lies are very hateful and wrong.

I stil do not understand on what basis people are allowed to attack verbally someone who is obseving Tznius according to majority opinions, on what basis are you allowed to attack someone for not following a chumras and where does it end these attacks.

And it’s not a few spitters or cursers. it’s been going on a long time. I lived next to Meah Shearim, called Beis Yisroel. Constant cursing and shouting at others. CHildren being trained to attack secular, I saw this.

This is the crux of the disagreeement. You want to sweep everything that happens, it’s nothing, every group has their crazies.. my point is that it’s instilled in people from early age to be against other Jews and this is wrong. It is picking on people for alleged aveiros and ignoring their own averios, it is hypocritical and not Judaism.

mikehall -“1% extremist have been allowed to continue their crazy ways due to the passiveness of the remaing 99%”

Well if you believe in collective blame – then I’m sure you blame the whole settler movement and all MO’s for all the Mosque desecration & burning and all the attacks on Innocent Israeli soldiers!

adams -“I stil do not understand on what basis people are allowed to attack verbally someone who is obseving Tznius according to majority opinions, on what basis are you allowed to attack someone for not following a chumras and where does it end these attacks.”

There is a basis for it and you can start a topic about this and posters will discuss it. And it’s Not “obseving Tznius according to majority opinions”, nor either is it “not following chumras”!

“And it’s not a few spitters or cursers. it’s been going on a long time. I lived next to Meah Shearim, called Beis Yisroel. Constant cursing and shouting at others. CHildren being trained to attack secular, I saw this.”

Again, there is a basis for it and you can start a topic about this and posters will discuss it. I just don’t agree with the spitting.

“This is the crux of the disagreeement. You want to sweep everything that happens, it’s nothing, every group has their crazies..”

Only on the spitting part.

“my point is that it’s instilled in people from early age to be against other Jews and this is wrong. It is picking on people for alleged aveiros and ignoring their own averios,”

They only “pick” on them when their behavior is flaunted in front of the Charedim. They are only against them because they do Aveiros and then they bring these Aveiros to the Charedi neighborhoods. And who says they “ignore their own averios”?

health. why do you assume if someone is pained and embarrassed by the strife going on in klal yisrael ,specifically with the incident of he spitting in beit shemesh that they don’t care about the chilul shabbos or lack of tznius etc. i am pained by all of the above.

the Torah is darchei Noam and the extreme behavior gives Torah a bad name, and is a chillul Hashem .and i am embarrassed that people do such things in the name of the Torah and in the guise of frum Jews/

a counterpoint to the spitting on the 8 year old girl story. True story because it happened to me.

When i was 5 or 6 years old my parents spent the summers in Sharon Springs where my mother took the sulphur baths. there was a large Satmar group there also, The satmar Rov and Rebbetsin came there for the summer too. My mother met the satmar rebbetsin and they started talking. My mother told the rebbetsin that none of the Chassidishe little girls would play with me because i wasn’t dressed according to their standards. Tights and long sleeves. The next day the Rebbetsins niece who was spending the summer with them came to my house and invited me to play with her. as a result , all the other kids included me. i remember going to the house of the Satmer Rov and Standing next to the Rebbetsin during Havdala (she stood by the door to see the Havdala which was done in the other room, and i stood right next to her.) Later on my mother took me to the Rov for a bracha. There was kiruv, not spitting. And this took place in the early 1960s. So was the Satmer Rov frum enough . Yet he didn’t behave like those hooligans in Bet Shemesh!

In those years Frumme yidden were not all about the externals. my mother tells the story about when my fatner was sick and unable to work. she was worried about paying the yeshiva tuition in Yeshivas Chassam Sofer. Rov ehrenfeld calmed her down and said, “don’t worry. Hashem will help, the main thing is your husband should recover and you shouldn’t worry. after that whenever he saw my mother on the street he would cross over the street to greet her and ask how my father was, to make her feel good and not enmbarrassed. and in those days 1960, she didn’t cover her hair. so that’s what true yiddishkeit is about. accepting and welcoming. not spitting!!!!

Health, I do not know how well acquainted you are with Israel, places like Mea Shearim and Bnei Brak have a long illustrious history of being charedi heartlands, newer younger communities such as those in Beit Shemesh and Modi’in have always been relatively mixed with different communities observing different degrees of observance.

I was born and raised in Jerusalem never , never , never were my neighbours, be they charedi or chassidische bothered by the antics of those around, they learnt Torah and raised their children. Men’s eyes were modestly kept down. I come from a mizrachi dati background, shock horror as a child I rode a bicycle , when I fell of my bike the charedi ladies next door would help me up, brush off the dirt and send me on my way. We knew different Jews did different things, we knew we all deserved respect, not to rubbish one another to the point where we rip each other apart.

You write with so much knowledge and a strong Jewish education, you are privileged to be so learned, please share your feelings with us whose opinions differ to you with some respect. You would be shocked to learn many of us would rush to your aid as a fellow Jew if you ever needed help, help us back by showing some gentleness and kavod.

goldenkint -“health. why do you assume if someone is pained and embarrassed by the strife going on in klal yisrael ,specifically with the incident of he spitting in beit shemesh that they don’t care about the chilul shabbos or lack of tznius etc. i am pained by all of the above.”

I didn’t assume – I asked a question. I just said that I got an inner feeling that they don’t, but I didn’t assume either way.

you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. if it was about Torah and Torah values the hoooligans in bet shemesh would be sitting in beis medrash. and their wives would be starting joint bikur cholim and chessed organizations with their neighbors to be mekarev them if they so chose. its all a big bluff. i know so many chassidshe andchareidi families that are mekarev and host people even if their hair isn’t covered the way they hold. and it is mekarev!