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Why is it that some people don’t eat empire chicken?
different masorahs on which chicken breeds are kosher.
I believe they got a new hashgacha that is more widely accepted about 20 or so years ago. Prior to that they only used a less accepted hashgacha.
because they are republican or chicken hawks?
@mbachur
masora. ask your father or rav.Reb Shnuer Kotler sent a group of talmidim to observe the system at Empire. One can only come with a prearranged appointment. Reb Shnuer sent one of those individuals to Reb Moshe Feinstein to inquire about the status if they can use it in the Yeshiva. Reb Moshe sent this individual to inspect a second time but go without an appointment, you’ll have Si’yata Di’shimaya to get in without an appointment. He reported back to Reb Moshe his observations. Reb Moshe instructed him to tell Reb Shnuer not to serve this in his Yeshiva.
The situation at Empire today is not any better than it was when Reb Moshe advised Reb Shnuer not to serve it in the Yeshiva.
Empire had for a number of years the Hashgocha of KAJ (Breuer’s) at Empire. A short few years ago (3-4) Empire took on another Heimish Hashgocha, KAJ notified Empire, we are removing our Hashgacha, as it does not meet anymore our standard of Kashrus.
in the begining they didnt have good name the had modern shoctim
and now its a yirusha from then
i new somone that ate from rubanshkin that had the hechsher from kaj
and when empire had the same hechsher the person sead that they dont eat empire even if it have the same hecher
today the shechta is has the hechsher from yechiel babad
today the shochtim and mashgichim come chariedy familiesin the begining they didnt have good name the had modern shoctim
and now its a yirusha from then
i new somone that ate from rubanshkin that had the hechsher from kaj
and when empire had the same hechsher the person sead that they dont eat empire even if it have the same hecher
today the shechta is has the hechsher from yechiel babad
today the shochtim and mashgichim come chariedy families@mbachur
no idea. i don’t know anything about chickens. i ask the guy selling kaporos if this a boy or girl.i suppose you can just look at the chickens being shechted if you know the difference, or do like many erliche people and only eat chickens you witness the shechita of (a monthly event for some families)
@Yehuda Shain – you posted two contradictory things about Empire – first that “The situation at Empire today is not any better than it was when Reb Moshe advised Reb Shnuer not to serve it in the Yeshiva”, and then that “Empire had for a number of years the Hashgocha of KAJ (Breuer’s) at Empire. A short few years ago (3-4) Empire took on another Heimish Hashgocha, KAJ notified Empire, we are removing our Hashgacha, as it does not meet anymore our standard of Kashrus. Which one is it – Empire now is as problematic as you claim it was back in the 1970s-1980s (Rav Shneur Kotler was Niftar in 1982, so your story can’t be from later than then), or was it fine when it was under KAJ but now is no longer fine when it’s under the OU and Tartikov?
As an aside – I personally spoke with Rav Yisrael Belsky ZT”L re: Empire back in the early 2000s, and he was adamant that the Empire standards were as high as anything else out there in the market – his statement was “I don’t stand for any Kulos”. If you think you know better than him, then please, explain yourself.
FYI – there was an article on Empire on YWN back in 2020, when they dropped the KAJ Hechsher. It is at https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1885365/in-depth-analysis-why-did-kaj-pull-their-hechsher-from-empire-kosher-chickens.html
an Israeli Yid
With all due respect
To come on to a public forum and bad mouth a company…..after 120 I guarantee this will be on your cheshbonShain
If someone asks you personally and you want to give this answer that is one thing
To come on a public forum…..As for Empire
It is on the CRC recommended list
If you want to know if your Rav accepts that, call your Rav !!!A number a years ago there were Q & A sessions with Rav Yisroel Belsky on various topics in halacha. He answered each question in about 2-3 minutes. Someone asked him about the kashrus at Empire. He flipped out and went on for about 20 minutes defending the high standards there. He challenged anyone to come and visit and point out areas they can improve. I don’t know if anyone took him up on it, but if you did and personally went to visit together with someone who knows something about shechita, then maybe, maybe you have a right to an opinion. Otherwise, to repeat LH or Motzi shem ra about things that happened 50 years ago is a very dangerous thing.
Thanks to Rocky, Mentch and others whose posts have pushed back against the totally false and defamatory statements about the level of hashgacha of Empire products. The truth is that they continue to provide a high quality product at affordable prices for the large percentage of yidden who are concerned about kashruth but also trying to deal with affordability. Yes, there are some whose chumrahs dictate only using some niche hashgacha but Empire is clearly the best option for a large percentage of yidden, without compromising on kashruth.
To the group
It’s obviously true that the Kashrus of Empire chickens is unimpeachable. So why do some question it? The answer comes from Shtreimlech 1 who said on January 25th that in the beginning they didn’t have a good name because they had modern shochtim. Let’s pay attention to what he’s saying. Chassidim are told in their Yeshivas that they’re more religious than the Modern Orthodox. That’s total rubbish, but they believe it and that’s why they require a Heimishe label. Let’s remember that the fellow who sold Treif chickens as Kosher was a Chossid.
Gadol,
I think some people need to feel frummer abd the best way to achieve that feeling is by rejecting something that simple yidden eat.qwerty613: That’s complete hogwash and false. I’m no chosid here but Chasidim do not teach that whatsoever. You posted a complete canard. Furthermore, the guy from Monsey with the treif chickens was NOT chasdish; he was a bona fide Litvak.
@qwtery613, FYI he was not a chosid, he was clean shaven and on the board of a Yeshivish -MO school, I suggest you seek help for your deep hated of anything chasidish.
To commonsaychel
Let me respond to your comment that I have a deep-seated hatred for anything Chassidish. My family was Chassidish Galitziyaner on both sides in Europe. I am a descendant of R Meir Premishlan, so I have tremendous respect and love for Chassidim. The only Chassidic group that I have criticized is Chabad and it has nothing to do with their being Chassidic; it’s because of their outlandish beliefs. As for your statement that Moshe Finkel isn’t a Chassid, Chat-GPT disagrees with you.
To ujm
As for your statement that the butcher wasn’t a Chassid, that’s not what AI says, and it’s rarely wrong. As for your contention that Chassidim aren’t taught that they’re frummer than the modern Orthodox, you must be joking. Let me share a personal story. I went to a Chassidish yeshivah on the LES until 5th grade at which point I switched to MTJ. Ninety percent of the boys were Chassidish, at that time Boro Park hadn’t yet become fully developed. When I started fourth grade a boy approached me, “This year we got a new boy who’s going to beat you in English and he’s a real Jew.” He considered me a goy because I didn’t have payos and I disn’t speak Yiddish.
To aaq
Thank you. That’s exactly what I was saying. But there’s an additional point that should be made. Many Chassidim are thieves as is evidenced by the number of them who are incarcerated for white collar crime. The Yetzer hora tells them that since they’re so Makpid on Kashrus, it’s okay if they steal.
@613, chat GPT has no clue about the difference between chasidish and not, I knew him on a personal level, i knew where he davened [in fact he was the bal koreh] and they davened nusach Ashkenaz, he was on the board on a yeshiva that did not accept chasidim as a rule.
AI doesn’t know how to distinguish between chassidish and yeshivish. It’s a classic milsa d’avida legluyei. He was born a litvak. Lived his life as a litvak. Did what he did as a litvak. It’s said that he did teshuva. AFAIK he’s no longer among the living. I don’t know where you were when the scandal came out but everybody knew his name, where he belonged, where he davened, and where he said a daf yomi shiur.
To commonsaychel and pekak
Thank you for correcting me and doing so in a civilized manner. On January 25th shtreimelech 1 wrote that originally Empire used modern shochtim and so the reason they still have a bad name is because it’s a Yerusha from that “shameful” time. He’s probably a Chassid and I read that Finkel was a Chassid, so that’s why I mentioned Chassidim, but I should’ve said Charedim. Fine, I was wrong, but the point still stands, “The Chareidi world (Chassidim-Yeshivish) believe that they’re frummer than the MO, and it’s a canard, thanks for the word ujm. UJM also said that Chassidim don’t teach that they’re frummer than the Modern. I’ll borrow another word from that poster “hogwash.” Rabbi Miller, who’s beloved in the Charedi world gave a Dvar Torah on Parshas Beshalach (coincidence?) in which he said that regular, meaning Charedi Jews, should stay as far away as possible from the Modern Orthodox because they don’t represent the ideal of what a Jew should be.
common > [in fact he was the bal koreh]
Oy, now in addition to kashering all the dishes, you would need to re-read all the parshiyos!
Don’t want to open yet another can of treif worms, but shechita differences are not that innocent. Whatever the kavanos were there that I am sure people can quote, the real-life effect of establishing a separate shechita was to re-direct meat taxes from the kahal to the alternative communities (candle tax was the 2nd significant source of kahal revenues).
from a quick search, seems that R Miller can answer the same question differently, depending maybe on the context:
1) from a secondary source that may be too selective in their quotes:
– What’s wrong with being Modern Orthodox?
– If Modern Orthodox means that you are going to send your daughters to college and your children won’t go into yeshivos to learn how to become talmidei chachomim, so you’re not Orthodox. Because ושננתם לבניך means ודברת בם בשבתך בביתך ובלכתך בדרך ובשכבך ובקומך. That’s Orthodox. So you see that big requirements are necessary to be Orthodox; it requires that your children should be bnei Torah.[AAQ: he is making a hashkafic point here as this can not be taken literally – as most MO (yes, I am using true scotsman approach here) teach children Torah, but historically we had Amei Haaretz who were Orthodox, although this does not work well in our times]
2) this seems to be authentic from a tape:
A: Absolutely, the Modern Orthodox are our brothers. Absolutely! If a Jew is a שומר מצוות, he tries to keep the mitzvos, then even thought he doesn’t exactly do everything the way we do it, he’s still a brother. If he doesn’t do עבירות, if he’s a שומר מצוות, I don’t care what kind of yarmulke he wears. If he wears a knitted yarmulka or if he wears something else, he’s still my brother. A person who keeps טהרת המשפחה, family purity, he eats kosher, he sends his children to Yeshiva and not public school, he’s a shomer Shabbos, he has mezuzahs on his doors – a person like that is our brother, and don’t make any mistake about it.Now, of course, that doesn’t mean that he has to be your brother and that you’ll move into the same house as him. It doesn’t mean that you should associate with him. That’s something else all together. You only associate with the best ones because you want to be the best. But when you see him on the street, you have a mitzvah of ואהבת לרעך כמוך – you have a mitzvah to love him. Whenever you see a Jew with a yarmulka, make sure to bless him. Say ברכם טהרם רחמם צדקתך תמיד גמלם.
@coffee addict
“With his appointment as congregational rabbi of the Young Israel of Rugby in East Flatbush in 1947, Rav Avigdor Miller embarked on the most famous aspect of his storied career. He saw his role as rabbi primarily as a teacher of Torah, and he envisioned a community committed to Jewish observance and Torah study. To that end he focused on teaching Torah, engaging in the delivery of classes for beginners in Gemara and a myriad of other topics.”not hijacking this thread but it was very common in 1950 and 60s for a someone of that caliber pulpit rav, Rav Gifter was rav in a place that did not even have a minyan of shomer shabbos.
” What did Rav Gifter do after his wedding?
RYR: In those days, in after World War II, there was certainly no such thing as kollel. My shver became a rov in the city of Waterbury, Connecticut. There was not even a minyan of shomer Shabbos Jews living there at the time
The mayseh with Empire is about Harav Notelovitch and his kepel shechita. he was one of the biggest Rabbonim in Brownsville, like Reb Moshe Rosen z”l and Harav Tomashoff etc.
To coffee addict
Congratulations. You join the list of those who challenge the veracity of my statements. Let me present the full version of what Rabbi Miller said. I saw this in the Toras Avigdor Parshas Beshalach. “The Bnei Yisroel went through the Yam Suf in 12 channels. This demonstrates that diversity is a hallmark of Judaism. Askenazim, Sefardim, Satmar, Bobov Lubavich they’re all good. But there’s one exception, the Modern Orthodox. Yes, they keep the Torah, so they are our brothers and we’re required to love them however they are very far from the ideal of what a Jews should be. Therefore, you should treat them like a relative who has an infectious disease and stay as far away from them as possible.”
As for your “proof” that he wouldn’t have said such a thing there are two rebuttals. First, many Young Israels have Yeshivish mispallelim. This was the case on the LES. The YI was more lack hat than MTJ. Or you can say that Rabbi Miller drove out the moderns with his rhetoric. I went to his shul quite often and I only recall seeing black hatters. Checkmate.I think the representation about Waterbury and its shomer shabbos Jews needs clarification. For example the Sefardishe shul in Boro Park which was under the leadership of Rabbi Swift ( a posek) , Rabbi Marton, and eventually Reb Dovid Singer a Galtzianer illuy also had a shomer shabbos problem. Jews who wanted a Shomer Shabbos minyan organized the famous Shomer Shabbos shul which is now a 24 hour shul. Jews who had to work rachmono litzlan went to shul with bigdei Shabbat before work . The jury is out if they are Shomer Shabbat . Waterbury had big Rabbonim there as far as I know. Rabbi Harris, an accountant alav Hashalom is singularly responsible for the Yeshiva in Waterbury now.
To coffee addict
Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. You’re convinced that Aaq has refuted me but I don’t see it. Basically he repeated what Rabbi Miller said which is that Modern Orthodox Jews are second class citizens. I want an explanation for this view. In my not so humble opinion, all observant Jews are equal.
When did Waterbury have “big Rabbonim?”
CTLawyers father was in business in Waterbury from 1958-1976. I was in business there until 1982.
No big Rabbonim from the late 50s through the virtual death of the community.
Then the Yeshiva bought up the vacant Conservative synagogue as its home.In the 50s through the early 80s a father and then his son held the pulpit in the orthodox shul in Waterbury. I will not name them publicly(but knew them well personally). These were in no way big Rabbonim.
The day school closed in the 60s.regarding Shomer Shabbos minyanim – as Ishpurim is saying, there were lots of people who could not stand the pressure. Many Rabonim wanted to lead all kid of Jews, not only small groups who were fully observant at the time. That included Jews who were 2nd and more generation in America, and to whom some Eastern European rabbis were not able to relate.
I heard a following story about a man who was seen in a shul in 1960s – sitting in the back, in his coat, never interacting with anyone, never going to Torah reading – just davening quietly and leaving. The person who saw him was told his story: during great depression, he lost his job as an accountant. He needed to support his family and the only job he was able to find required working on shabbos. He did what he could to minimize i – he walked for 2 hours to the work place (in cold), waited until mtzei shabbos to go back, etc. After he eventually found a different job, he came back to shul, but he refused to accept aliyos – saying that he has a status of mechalel shabbos, and he stayed in this self-imposed cherem for decades.
I don’t think qwerty any my quotes differ that much. I presume R Miller was familiar with what MO stands for, as he spent a little time at Boston yeshiva where R Soloveitchik was the head, and R Miller’s FIL was also teaching. So, his bottom line is that MO are part of Klal Yisroel but he disagrees with them and considers them a danger to the community he leads.
R Miller has a lot of good insights in human psychology and a lot of his observations are useful to his followers. Interestingly, R Miller himself ventures into science and politics. His advise is “learn a lesson from Viet Nam; if you don’t – Hashem will send next lesson closer to home”. Possibly, he does not want everyone to learn those lessons, just to listen to him learning the lessons. Anyway, I wish students of R Miller listen to his message to them, rather than focus on the boundaries he created to protect them from bad influences.
PS As to quotes, I suggest going to either R Miller’s tapes or books. Recent popular excerpts published on and off-line may be taken out of context or selected with a bias.
@qwerty613
it’s obvious Rav Miller is talking about tinokos shenibu that are still part of amecha, just like the chazon ish talks about at the beginning of YD.“all observant Jews are equal….”
Well, that should be the case, and many of us take that for granted. However, there is still a segment of the tzibur who have adopted the belief that those whose observance is leveraged with chumrahs and more of an “Alte Heim” hashkafah are MORE EQUAL. than say a ‘modernishe” observant Jew.
To somejewiknow
Sorry, it’s not obvious. He stated clearly that he’s referring to those MO’s who keep the Torah. Now I know why you’re defending Rabbi Miller. He despised the State of Israel as you do, but with one big difference, he also was against Neturei Karta.
To Gadolhadorah
You nailed it. That’s exactly my point. Thank you.
To coffee addict
I’ll repeat his quote, “The MO’s keep the Torah and we’re obligated to love them. However, we should treat them as relatives who have an infectious disease and stay as far away from them as possible.” That sounds like it’s Der Sturmer worthy. As for your comment about blasting people in Kollel, he was referring to individuals who don’t want to work and want to live off their spouses and in-laws. He wasn’t vilifying an entire population. No comparison whatsoever.
somejew> it’s obvious Rav Miller is talking about tinokos shenibu that are still part of amecha
suddenly you found your tinokos. No, in this case, R Miller talks about observant Jews with different hashkafa that R Miller considers dangerous.
We can probably better understand this machlokes if we look back at Chasidim/Litvakim schism. Chasidism was attractive to people who were outside of litvish learning circles. And, eventually, common grounds were found. Similarly, R Shimshon Hirsh and R Soloveichik are talking to different people from Satmar rebbe and R Miller. So, R Miller may be right that MO approach may be a “virus” for his listeners.
To aaq
You’re exactly right. Rabbi Miller believed that the MO were a virus that would infect his holy Charedim, but you didn’t explain why he felt that way. I’d like to present two reasons. First, he often said that the Chitzonius affects the Pnimiyos. Because of this principle it was important to dress as befits a Ben Torah. He therefore had disdain for the MO who dress casually. But there’s another reason that’s more to the point. Rabbi Miller felt that rank-and-file Jews should blindly follow their mentors and this isn’t the system in the MO world. Now we should be clear that not all Charedi Rabbis accept Rabbi Miller’s approach. I’m a Lower East Sider and the Feinsteins never told us what to do. My current Rav, Rabbi Plutchok also doesn’t believe that a Rav should throw his weight around.
qwerty, I did not read, or was not paying close attention to the reasons behind R Miller’s position. I think ressons you quote are secondary – dressing as Ben Torah as clearly something traditionally inappropriate for a non-Ben Torah; and choice of particular black clothing is a random recent convention. Same for daas Torah – this is all secondary to social truth: many of R Miller’s followers will be lost and get assimilated without these stringencies. That already happened with previous generation of Jews in America (not because they followed R Hirsh or R Soloveitchik, but because they were stum ignorant and with no community support).
So, R Miller’s advice was valid for his listeners. But I wish it were possible to protect people without pretending these measures are core Torah. As a result, the followers now focus on these things as the essence of their Torah. Maybe they should read the rest of R Miller, or maybe some R Soloveitchik also.
Wow this is sick talk. Love your fellow man. Doesn’t say jew. But ok guys. Believe whatever you want. Get lost in all your narishkiet
To aaq
You’re a master of obfuscation, but I’m going to clarify the subject. Coffee addict started this thread by asking why some frum Jews won’t eat Empire. On Jan 25th Shtreimlich 1 gave an answer, “Empire used to use Modern shochtim and so this Yerusha has carried down.” Shtreimilich made it clear that in his view, at least, MO’s are less observant than other Orthodox Jews. I think that his assessment is correct and then I explained where this attitude comes from. It derives from bigoted Rabbis like Rabbi Miller who propagated the myth that Charedim are better than the Modern. I then suggested two possible reasons for Rabbi Miller’s position. I don’t know if they are the true reasons, and I don’t care. He’s clearly wrong. Case closed.
coffee,
when the kid R Soloveitchik was sick, his father hesitated to add logs into fire for doctor to see better, so the grandfather, Chaim Brisker, added it himself – machmir on p/n, not meikel on shabbos. Now, R Moshe was modernishe, while R Chaim was not, but, metaphorically, a MO Talmid Chochom survived due to that fire!your question is good, except that it provokes LH, so maybe we can just discuss general social trends. And it is also loaded as MO may be R Soloveitchik and maybe your local opera lover… Still: MO are more machmir on fulfilling metubah obligations of supporting the wives according to their level; educating their children in umanut; supporting Jews in trouble, whether in Israel or in USSR; everyday middos – safe and ehrliche driving, not driving against “one way” signs; learning Torah lishma; understanding Torah in the context of other info which sometimes leads to better understanding of a sugya; kiddush Hashem in their activities in public sphere; avoiding theft and tax problems in business; mesiras nefesh in paying for day schools and shul membership;
Pick which ones you want me to justify
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