Empire chickens

@always_ask_questions
The difference between Rav Chaim and your crooked “Modern Orthodox” is that the “Modern Orthodox” continue being mechalel shabbos after shabbos long after any chash pekiach nefesh!

I can prove the point right now, rushe:

1) What is the nimshal of your “metephoric” chilil shabbos? What are the aveiras that MO has allowed in order to “save lives (sic)”?

2) Take the above answers (to question number 1), are they indeed aveiros?

3) do all MO people stop doing those aveiras once they mature away from their nimshal “pekiach nefesh”? Or, do they wither keep doing the aveira OR do they stop calling themselves MO and instead call themselves kosher Jews?

coffee, refuah shleimah. I hope you appreciate your Jewish doctor who is more likely to be MO than a BMG grad.

Part of the argument is that “MO” is not well defined. It could mean students of R Soloveitchik (TMP true MO) or it could mean your local members of kiddush club (KMO kiddush MO). …

coffee> Those things are only because of the modern part of modern orthodoxy in other words if those weren’t American values I don’t think modern orthodox would be machmir in those things

Could be. But then NMOs (non-modern O) might be machmir on something just because Americans are for it …Presumably, TMOs who were to live in, say, Stalin’s Russia would not be copying Stalin’s values. Anyway, values are values. As I mentioned, being an erliche and qualified doctor produces a lot of chesed, and I hope you have a good one and appreciate him.

> Also “Torah lishmah”? Who are you kidding? The only way to get MO to a shiur is by offering food

These are KMOs. TMOs learn either at their shul or at a local kollel after a long professional day. They choose which classes to attend without a need to show kavod to a high-position rav. When they teach, they don’t worry whether someone will pay them or that someone will find their teaching deficient … H’V I am saying that NMOs are generally learning lo lishmah, but there are challenges to overcome. Some of my kids are volunteering in kiruv, and they have several NMOs and MOs participating. NMOs are regularly absent when there is a paying babysitting opportunity, or even when they fulfilled their school “chessed” quote.

Ok, I’ll drop silly abbreviations as you seem to be in pain as it is … Obviously, people meet diffferent people. In my environment, MOs with whom I learn, and have kiddush too, are engineers. professors, doctors, who are mostly respected in their fields and who are pretty much cut out for learning and they engage in that learning despite living busy life. A rav is sometimes passing our group in beis midrash gets to quickly answer (yes, no, dont know) accumulated questions from the maggid shiur (engineer) with full respect. Our class does not have to rely on Rashi for old-french rendering of greek turn, the professor explains greek terms directly, and the subtle details of sanhedrin rulings are highlighted by comparison with 19th century US supreme court cases, when appropriate. I sometimes learned already the same sugya in a more traditional environment, and the discussion is always interesting.

Re: Avigdor Miller. He is indeed probably concerned primarily about separating his students from less observant drinkers. But, his opposition to MO is more principled. I presume he knew well what he was talking about based on his early learning in Boston. And his writings about modern life and science address those issues. And while he has good insights into these issues, he is not always at the level of educated professionals in these discussions.

To Coffee Addict

If we can’t come to a consensus as to what Modern Orthodox means, then how can we make any cogent statements. It’s clear that you agree with Rabbi Miller that Charedim are better Jews than MO’s, but that’s based on your prejudiced view of Modern Orthodoxy. Rabbi Miller didn’t define MOs. He simply said that Charedim should avoid being stained by them. Do you consider Rav Herschel Shachter Modern Orthodox? I’m certain that Rabbi Miller did. Well he may very well be the Gadol Hador of our time. Again, it shouldn’t be that difficult for you to offer a definition of MOs. I’m waiting.

coffee > I want to post a retraction
oy, I hope it is not the dental pain that gets you, and you will feel better soon and find your former reassured self again!

> I think they are few and far between though and think they’re more OOT than in the city

maybe. I don’t know the City well (and I don’t think outer boroughs are considered the “City”, are they?). I had a friend who retired and moved closer to the “city” and then when we were shmoozing during his visit here, he lamented: there are hundreds of people in my shul, but nobody to talk about something interesting, they are all business … so, maybe we vehemently agreed to begin with, just using different categories.

To coffee addict

You are fixated on Chumrahs. I didn’t say that MO’s are better Jews than Charedim. I simply challenged the opinion of Rabbi Miller, and those who agree with him, that MOs are on a lower stratus, because that’s nonsense. I don’t know why you think that adopting Chumrahs elevates a Jew. I’ll share a story. About 30 years ago I attended my cousin’s wedding. It was held in a Brooklyn catering hall. When I arrived a local (LES) Rebbitzen told me, “I came to the wedding, but I won’t eat anything here, because it’s not Kosher enough for me. It’s not uncommon for people who adopt Chumrahs to violate Doraysas. This woman had no right to cast aspersions on the hall. If she didn’t want to eat, that was her right, but she should have kept her mouth shut. Again, I’m waiting for you to give your definition of MO.

There seem to be halachik reasons against chumras, quoting from secondary sources:

1) R Moshe – do not make chumros that all poor people will not be able to afford. In regards to a proposal to use only new sticks for matza baking

2) Gittin 5 – do not add extra text to Gittin – that is disrespectful to rabbis of previous generations who did not use the chumra. [This seems to be taken care of by claiming that previous rabbis performed same chumros]

3) Da’at Torah(סימן סג סעיף ב) – seems to be your case, qwerty – one should not come to a meal and then refuse to eat something and publicly refuse to eat something there when it is supervised

4) There is a story about R Moshe, I hope I remember it right – he was invited at a simcha to eat at the front table that had yashan. He refused out of fear that people will point out that R Moshe only ate at that table.

coffee > father wants his son to eat with everyone at a sheva brachos at a treif restaurant and the son didnt feel comfortable doing, so the rabbi was finding things that the son can eat.

was it because he wanted to eat fancy food? Or maybe it was a close family where they felt they need to attend. In the second case, whether he decided to eat there or not, this decision is not because he wants to eat, but a decision how to balance several halachic obligations. The father might be more sensitive to the family issue, while the son cares more about kashrus which is easier to comprehend. Hopefully, the rabbi looked at all sides, including the chinuch and where the family stands, and gave them the right advice. And hope they followed that.

I once saw a newly-observant Yid from a choshuve reform family being sad because he wanted to skip the turkey day at his family, where fancy food is served on silver plates … He did not miss the food, just felt bad about offending the family. A wise chabad rabbi advised him to pack his kosher food and paper plates and forks, and cheerfully go there, being the first to joke about this. The guy did not become “modern” out of this.

To coffee addict

Thank you for responding, that shows menschlichkeit. I’m familiar with Rabbi Miller’s haskgafah because I spent thirty years (1990-2020) in a Yeshiva run by his Talmud Muvhak. When Rabbi Miller’s statement came out on Toras Avigdor that “real Jews” meaning Chareidim should avoid MOs by treating them like relatives who have an infectious disease, I was furious. I brought this up to the Rosh Yeshiva and he said, “I agree 100% with Rabbi Miller.” I realized that he views Rabbi Miller as infallible. And of course, the main problem was that my Rosh Yeshiva refused to listen to anything I told him about Chabad because Rabbi Miller liked Chabad. I agree that Rabbi Miller was a great man, but there are things that he said that were wrong. So, let’s consider your theory that Rabbi Miller likes Charedim because they adopt Chumrahs. Well, I learn about seven hours a day and I also write a very well received weekly Dvar Torah over the internet. I do all this while maintaining my practice. Trust me. I love Hashem. I’m a Lower East Side Jew. We don’t judge people by their beards and black hats. If Rabbi Miller wanted to say that he prefers Charedim because they’re more devoted to Hashem, I would respectfully disagree with his opinion. The problem was that he used the term “infectious disease” to describe tens of thousands of observant Jews. You gave examples of MOs who do questionable things. That’s true but there are a great many Charedim in jail for various forms of theft. That’s an Issur Doraysa and it’s a form of Kefirah, because it means that they don’t believe that Hashem provides their Parnasah. But you won’t find me making blanket statements that all Charedim are atheists. No, they believe in Hashem, but we all have a Yetzer hora and Teivos. The only group I criticize is Chabad because in their belief system, the Rebbe and not Hashem is in control. Let’s continue this, I’m impressed with your responses because you seem like an Ish Emes.

2) Im trying to explain R Avigdor Miller’s position not try to argue with you

We agree there is precedent to taking on chumras
We agree that taking on chumras can be a good thing
We agree that Rabbi Miller favored chumras over kulas

Are you arging in front of a goyishe judge? You bring half of the material here.

I hope you agree (at least many classical sources do, as I quoted)
chumros are also dangerous and need to be administered by a doctor and individually, etc.

I presume R Miller saw American Jewry in such a sorry state that he recommended collective taking of a mass dose of antibiotics.
There is a lot of justification for this view, especially in his time and place.
Still, at some point it is time to detox, but the patient forgot the difference between food and rugs. Addiction has to be treated, see R Twersky, not your local drug dealer. I understand I am jumping between metaphors here …

hah