June 8, 2020 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1868977
Background: the right wing tends to blame racial inequities on lack of self-help and Black culture. The left, and sociologists, say that all inequities are a result of external systemic, structural and institutionalized discrimination.
Surely there would be a good study that proves one way or the other. But the two most important studies on this issue have both been repeated and their findings not replicated.
In a 2004 study, they found that having the name Jamal and Lakisha on a job resume makes you much less likely to get a call back than if you’re name was Emily or Greg. The issue with this is that Jamal & Lakisha are a specific kind of black (urban ghetto poor). So they decided to use nuetral first names but black last names such as Jefferson & Washington. They found no bias. The problem is that although thoae last names are only used by Blacks, most people wouldnt associate it a nd chap that. [Btw, i’m curious if anybody thinks that having a name like Chananya Yom Tov Lipa on a resume decreasea ur chances of getting a call back]
In addition two studies were done on disproportionate police brutality (disproportionate to crime rates). One found that blacks were disproportionately killed while the other found that blacks were LESS likely to be killed probably for fear of backlash. It turns out that they used two different methods of collecting the data. As of now there is no national data on police brutality (something that black republican senator Tim Scott is introducing a bill to fix). So the study that found no racism used data from cities such as Houston that were willing to share that info (resulting in a police friendly bias), while the other used media data (resulting in a left wing bias).
Is there a different study that I missed? Or does nobody care about the truth and the main thing is feelings?June 8, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1869128
There are several databases on misconduct by police officers. What do you want to study? There are a lot of social problems intertwined. The causes could be confused with the results. Is poverty a cause of lack of education, or the other way around? (Really old question.) If your resume shows the most potential and you do not get a call because of your name, that shows a bias. Still, do not put Bigot as your name on a resume.June 8, 2020 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1869107besalelParticipant
I am not familiar with the studies you mentioned but I would venture that systematic bias, assuming it exists, varies in degree from place to place. If one study finds systematic bias in a small town in Georgia, another may tell you it doesn’t exist in Queens.
As for Chanaya, in my professional career I have found that there is most certainly a strong anti-frum, systematic bias, most often committed by the frei jews, r”l.June 8, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1869132
It should be abundantly clear that only feelings matter. If that weren’t true, looting of innocent people wouldn’t be condoned, there would be no senseless calls to abolish police departments, #BLM would focus on black-on-black violence which accounts for the vast majority of violence-related deaths in the black community, and people would stop pretending that a drug addicted violent criminal is some sort of saint to be idolized.June 8, 2020 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1869140JosephParticipant
There is far more anti-white racism in America than anti-black racism. Both in policy (i.e. affirmative action policies not only permitting but enforcing discrimination against whites) as well as in violence (i.e. violent anti-semitic attacks perpetrated by members of minority communities.)June 8, 2020 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1869146Avi KParticipant
Every society has racism. Just ask members of minority tribes in Africa.June 8, 2020 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1869152
“Surely there would be a good study that proves one way or the other.”
No there wouldn’t be becasue it isnt just one issue. It is a deep history with effects that linger until today and manifest itself in many different ways. One excelent example that you cite.
“The issue with this is that Jamal & Lakisha are a specific kind of black (urban ghetto poor).”
That isnt an issue with the study. That is the point of the study. Even once theyve made it having grown up in an “urban ghetto poor” neighborhood makes it less likely to get a job. Arguably it should be MORE of a reason think of all the struggle Lakisha urban ghetto poor) overcame to get the same GPA as Karen, Lakisha should be MORE likely to get the job
I am not sure why you dismiss this very real problem so fast.
“thoae last names are only used by Blacks”
Are you being serious?
“Is there a different study that I missed?”
sure there are plenty
One of the biggest tickets to prosperity is home ownership. for decades minorities were deprived of this via redlining
As recently as 1980’s Banks were still more likely to lend to a lower income white family than a middle blacvk one.
So you have a group more likely to grow up in poverty poorly educated parents in poorer neighborhoods where property taxes generally fund schools, with worse teachers and worse access to tutors and extra help.
those that overcome all this are less likely to get a job thus perpetuiating this cycle, and you have a recipe for “systemic racism”June 8, 2020 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1869163
Thank you for telling us only feeling matter, before stating your feelings.June 8, 2020 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1869169frombttootdParticipant
Bravo, Ubiquitin! It’s nice finally to see a somewhat honest discussion, instead of the usual self-serving, racist drivel in these pages.June 8, 2020 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1869165
Being that your America consists of the frum communities of the tri-state area, you are correct.June 8, 2020 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1869188
“As recently as 1980’s Banks were still more likely to lend to a lower income white family than a middle blacvk one.”
That is very not recent.
Today, is there is any evidence of systemic racism against the black community?June 8, 2020 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1869197
Just stating the facts I’ve observed. Clearly, your feelings trump these facts, in your opinion – providing further anecdotal evidence to my point.June 8, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1869190
“Bravo, Ubiquitin! It’s nice finally to see a somewhat honest discussion, instead of the usual self-serving, racist drivel in these pages.”
Wow, so we now discussing data and facts are racist?
You have no clue who most of the commenters are, I personally work with a number of humans that happen to have black skin on a regular basis and I have a lot of respect for them.
Of course the black community has a lot of challenges, but if your only open to the idea that this is the whites man’s fault, and by having some sort of black supremacy in which the white man needs to kneel and wash the black persons feet, that IS racist!
By the way, there are racist policies already in place, what about affirmative action, by definition, it is a racist policy. It favors one group of people based on their skin color against other people.
The basis of this policy is due to past discrimination against one group of people, therefore we will now discriminate against another person.June 8, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1869206
Don’t confuse systemic and systematic. It is blatantly clear that there are no systematically racist policies against black. If anything, policies lean against whites (racial quotas, affirmative action, etc.). Systemic racism in policing is debatable, but all the statistics show no evidence of this. Anecdotes are for making a sale, not for drafting a policy.June 8, 2020 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1869207
1. Discriminating against a name that is associated with a low socioeconomic status is wrong but it isnt racism. Chances are the employer would discriminate equally against white poor names (dont know if there are any maybe Billy Bob or Krystal etc – Emily and Greg sound like privileged and rich names.)
2. Washongton is like 100% black and Jefferson is 75% if i remember the study correctly.June 8, 2020 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1869218
Even if this one specific example weren’t true that is but one piece.
Secondly “chances are” doesn’t help much to people in that position. and aerguing that Jamal is a “low socioeconomic” name but not a “black name” doesnt really hold water
“Washongton is like 100% black”
no not 100% Though by far most.
“That is very not recent.
Today, is there is any evidence of systemic racism against the black community?”
It is very recent and it is still felt today.
I have a leg up thanks to a home my parents purchased in the 80’s A black person my age does not have that advantage. I will IYH be able to leave more to my children thanks to that home.
It is an advantage that I have today, it doesnt get more recent than that
Ruby Bridges is the first black child to attend a desegregated kindergarten in Louisiana.
she is only 65.
That is young, these policies are very recent. and repercusions are still being felt
I cannot do two much justice to the subject so this won’t turn into one of thsoe endless ubiquitin repeat loops (I hope)
schnitzel if you answers to your questions with link s to specific studies wikipedia has a piece on “Institutional racism” with many links to said studies
no not to one study that shows systemic racism exists. But to many small pieces that put together created this edifice.June 8, 2020 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1869233akupermaParticipant
Does systematic anti-Semitism exist?
When you see a group of poorly dressed (apparently) African American young males walking down a dark street in your direction, do you get nervous?
Do you feel surprise on encountering an African American profession who seems to be highly competent?June 8, 2020 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1869258yochyParticipant
If there is a negative feeling toward a certain stereotype it is incumbent on those people to bend over backward to ensure that this sterotype is reversed. For example when I am walking down the street and see a well dressed black man in a suit and tie I don’t fear for my life. But when I see one dressed like a gangster and acting crazy I get more nervous. It is incumbent upon black to dress properly, work hard and do whatever it takes to reverse stereotypes. It is not the blacks that make an effort- that are the ones that have feelings that there is a racist attitude toward them. Same for Jews or others BTW.June 8, 2020 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1869267
My name originally was Schnitzel Baguette, but I thought I would be discriminated against because of its unmanliness so I changed it. Like every Jamal should.June 8, 2020 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1869270
I don’t think we’re in disagreement here. I agree that there are vicious cycles of poverty in the black community that originated from oppression. However, anyone that read JD Vance’s book on Appalachia will realize that people in the “White Trash” community are in the same exact spiraling situation. Most of these systemic racism studies just prove that there is a vicious cycle of poverty, not that anyone is explicitly or even implicitly discriminating against someone because of the color if their skin.June 8, 2020 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1869272
“When you see a group of poorly dressed (apparently) African American young males walking down a dark street in your direction, do you get nervous?”
Lets say that yes, I do get nervous. What if not only do I get nervous, but my friend that is African American also gets nervous.
Does that make anyone a racist?
What if I am also uncomfortable if its a group of poorly dressed white people, with large tattoos who seem to be rowdy and using profanity at passerby’s.
Am I still a racist?
“Do you feel surprise on encountering an African American profession who seems to be highly competent?”
Not at all, I see it all over, there is opportunity all over and everyone can climb the ladder.
In fact, our last president was African American, he was afforded the top job in the country for 2 terms.June 8, 2020 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1869278
If people are nervous from Blacks that isnt racist.
If people dont give the same presumption of innocence to a black that they give to a white, that is racist.
And if people are scared of both white trash and ghetto people equally like most people, that is definitely not racist.June 8, 2020 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1869286
“It is very recent and it is still felt today.
I have a leg up thanks to a home my parents purchased in the 80’s A black person my age does not have that advantage. I will IYH be able to leave more to my children thanks to that home.
It is an advantage that I have today, it doesn’t get more recent than that”
No one is saying that minorities have some disadvantages. My parents that immigrated to the USA had zero, they were subject to a lot of discrimination.
However, if you are going to rely on 45+ old data that suggests that there was some discrimination against minorities as a basis for systemic racism, then you would have to also have current data that. a) this still exists. b) there are other forms of racism.
The fact that your parents, for example, were able to purchase a house that a minority in the exact same financial situation had a slightly more difficult time obtaining, is a very subjective argument as to the condition of the black community.
You see, you actually have parents that purchased a home, statistically, from every 100 black babies born in the USA, 72 are from single mothers. Explain that on the banks. That puts the average black child at a huge disadvantage.June 8, 2020 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1869302
No one is saying that minorities have some disadvantages.”
great I love when we agree
“My parents that immigrated to the USA had zero, they were subject to a lot of discrimination.”
sure and obviously I don’t know the specific circumstances your parents faced but buying houses and college admission was probbly not one of them
“a) this still exists.”
I am not saying this still exists (in all facets) I am saying the sequela of those discrimination is still felt today
“Explain that on the banks”
Again, its not one issue
” I agree that there are vicious cycles of poverty in the black community that originated from oppression”
so there you go.
That is the answer to your question.
Yes the vicious cycle of poverty is bad regardless. but when the vicious cycle of poverty is bad as a result of systemic oppression (that existed years ago) that is worseJune 8, 2020 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1869340
“ great I love when we agree”
I think most disagreements really boil to small differences.
I dont think anyone disagrees that black people were discriminated against, or that they were aves (property) of other people or that they were sold by their own native people as slaves and brought to the united states.
You mention that what happened in the past is a cause for the current disadvantage of the black person.
That may or may not be, but we may disagree if this now means that people as a group were not exposed to this disadvantage, should kneel, beg for forgiveness and wash the feet of the black person.
Furthermore, the average american today is not really at a greater advantage if they are white.June 8, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1869347
So maybe if you are applying for a manly job, but Bigot on the resume. For other jobs, use Baguette. It seems like there is no empirical date, as the question would not have an empirical solution. There is enough applicable data on police aggression. The Government (for some reason) does not have a public database on this issue.June 8, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1869348
The four things you mentioned are not opinions. They are not facts either. It is how you relate to ideas/concepts/movements/fact. That is called feelings. The case can be made, that is a truer sense of self, and more applicable to social problems. Still, it is not the truth of itself.June 8, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1869349
You can have any stereotype about me you want. I will not bend a millimeter. Bend yourself.June 8, 2020 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1869350
Yes. Maybe a little. Not at all. Did I miss or mess your point?June 8, 2020 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1869354
Some people here are discussing whether its racist to discriminate because of personal safety. So I did some research. It turns out that Blacks were always upset that they were less likely to be picked up by cabs and a 2016 study showed that Uber drivers were twice as likely to cancel on a black name (irrelevant to the route), 30% longer wait time, and that if youre white, you have 3x chance that the first taxi that passes you will pick you up.
1. Again the study is not using black names (the first two studies were names. The 3rd was actual people and I would lile to know how they dressed) – they are using invented Black Power ghetto names.
2. Taxi drivers may be afraid for their personal safety.
3. But then they shouldn’t be taxi drivers.
So I guess systemic racism – at least in some industries – exist.June 8, 2020 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1869378
Another 2 points about Uber:
1. Their drivers are 63% non white and probably most of them are immigrants that aren’t culturally American so they have their old world racism.
2. Uber has a much larger issue if its true what Conservative media is reporting that Uber Eats is beginning to charge 1 price for Black restaurants and another price for White restaurants.June 9, 2020 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1869636
Theres a WAPO piece “There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal-justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.”
Updated 4/19′ whcih is essentially a lsit of studies on racism specifically in the criminal justice system
IT paints a very ugly pictrue
I can’t say I’m prepared to defend them all, even if you can quibble with one here or there still a good strarting pointJune 9, 2020 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1869884MilhouseParticipant
There is NO evidence that the criminal justice system is racist. The “proof” is always the same — the irrational assumption that people of all races commit all crimes at the same rate, so any disparity in arrests and convictions is down to racism. I am simply not going to bother reading yet another social-justice-warrior’s attempt to square this circle.
Taxi drivers OF ALL RACES don’t like to pick up black passengers for three very valid reasons, none of which make them racists.
1. Fear for their safety.
2. It is very well known (ask any taxi driver, of any race) that black people tend to be poor tippers.
3. Black people are likely to want to go to a neighborhood where, even if the driver is not mugged (see item 1) he is unlikely to pick up a fare on the way back. This problem could be solved, and thus black people could stand a higher chance of catching a cab, if drivers were allowed to refuse destinations they didn’t like.
All three of these reasons are completely rational, and therefore not racist.
Schnitzel says that people who are afraid for their safety shouldn’t be taxi drivers. Why on earth not? That makes no sense at all. What is it about taxi driving that makes it suitable only for those who are reckless and don’t care if they are robbed or raped or murdered? On what grounds do you presume to dictate that a normal person should be denied such a livelihood? It’s purely arbitrary. Or, if you’re relying on the law, then it’s circular. And it violates a person’s 14th amendment right to pursue a livelihood. (The immunities and privileges clause, before the supreme court unjustly gutted it.)June 10, 2020 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1869971
The problem with racism is not irrationality. What is rational could be harmful, uncontrollable, unsustainable, or the wrong way to act.June 10, 2020 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1869992MilhouseParticipant
And here we have the radical left-wing troll “n0m”, exposed as the enemy of humanity and civilization that he is. What is rational is by definition the right way to act; what other definition could there be? But he subscribes to the anti-rational and anti-Torah religion of leftism, which has its roots in ancient paganism.June 10, 2020 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #1869993
“The problem with racism is not irrationality. What is rational could be harmful, uncontrollable, unsustainable, or the wrong way to act.”
If we know that people from a certain group are more likely to do something, taking that into account, is that racism?
For instance, assuming that a religious jew will likely be looking for two sinks in their house, does assuming this make one a racist?
Usually, racism is reserved for superiority and inferiority. But using statistics and prior life experiences, especially when dealing with one’s own safety, is reasonable and not racist.
When one takes action to avoid being in a potentially unsafe environment, this does not mean they believe they are superior to the person that might potentially harm them.
I don’t believe I am racist, I work regularly with African Americans and have a lot of respect for them. They share these same notions, and by no means are they racists. Being a non African American does not mean that I am a racist when I share the very same concerns that the African American has.June 10, 2020 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1870116
My best wishes to my most loyal supporter! A nuclear arms race is rational…… I hope you win one!June 10, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1870126
Agreed. Racism is about inferiority and superiority. I think there are two different ideas in racism. People who think of themselves as better than their peers may assume that their race is superior. Alternatively, it is far easier to assume knowledge, than to acquire it. When people see differences in race, they make assumptions as opposed to inquiring on the topic.
“More likely to do something”
No. Assuming that all of the are that way, can be racist.
No. it is not inferior or superior to have two sinks.
“Using statistics and prior life experiences”
Is very subjective. Especially in regards to race.
“Reasonable and not racist”
My take is that it could be irrational. But, we are irrational about our own safety. Maybe we could say it is rational to be irrational about my own safety. My thinking for my own safety is justified. But so is the indignation of the innocent members of that race.
I have no reason to think you are racist. (I even double checked this thread and your profile, in case I forgot one of our recent posts.) I wonder how much disposition I have to racism, based on my second definition above.June 10, 2020 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1870156
Its rational to be afraid. Its also common sense to avoid putting yourself in a situation in which you would discriminate against innocent people because you’re afraid. Don’t be a taxi driver 3 in the morning in a major city if you’re afraid of half of your clientele or their destinations. To do so knowingly that you’re only planning on picking up White people is racist.June 10, 2020 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1870201som1Participant
White privilege is a myth!!!!!!!!!!!!
if you are white and think your privileged because you are white the you are a white supremacist!!
if you are black and believe in i am privileged because im white then your racist!!!June 10, 2020 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1870211
I agree with a lot of what you wrote.June 10, 2020 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1870234
I think @som1 knocked it out of the park with their foolproof argument which proves that systemic racism doesn’t exist, and there’s no need to continue this debate any longer.
That being said. It’s clear that we’re not having a standard of what should be considered racism and wrong. @n0mesorah’s standard is thats its wrong if you are making an indignation of the other. Which I like. Once upon a time when Merriam Webster was still a necessity and before it became political as a result of being obsolete, their definition of racism was a belief that the primary cause of traits and capabilities is tied to your race. According to the media, they plan on including sytemic racism as a new definition of racism and I look forward to seeing how exactly they define it.June 17, 2020 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1873554MosheFromMidwoodParticipant
Given the high percentage of non-whites in police forces around the country, I would suggest that 2004 is somewhat outdated. Also, one needs to understand the definition of “systemic racism.” The true meaning from what I have read is that it is official policy of an agency to act in a racist manner. Can anyone show any government agency on any level that has such policies that burn racism into their policies? It seems the expression has been hijacked to mean any individual acting in a racist manner suggests that somehow the entire agency is racist. But of course that fits the narrative a lot better that the U.S. is racist.June 22, 2020 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1875359
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