August 2, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #604393
So I keep seeing Shaabos divrei Torah sheets here in Israel that keep urging all Jews to come to Israel to help speed the coming of Mashiach. They say when Gog u’Magog begins we won’t be safe in chutz la’aretz. Is there any basis in Chazal for this? I know living in Eretz Yisrael is an important mitzva, but that’s not what I’m asking about. I’m asking about any particular chazal that says living outside of Israel means you will be at greater risk in the End War. Particularly since many hold the war will last seconds or minutes and that has been taken to refer to a nuclear war. You would think Israel would be the prime target for a nuclear attack C”V, as opposed to a random spot in chutz la’aeretz.August 2, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #889937on the ballParticipant
Those who know don’t say and those who say don’t know.August 2, 2012 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #889938yitayningwutParticipant
It’s propaganda. Or a sales pitch, whichever you prefer.August 2, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #889939ItcheSrulikMember
Sales pitch. They’re pitching something worth doing, but as a zionist I am mocheh on the poor taste in advertising.August 3, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #889940
in the first gulf war half the american bochuim in the mir went back to the u.s., rb wolbe z”l gave a schmooze as follows – they say the americans are going back to america – tor sie gehen, mir dahrf sie nicht hoben. he pointed out that the jews in israel were miraculously saved from the holocaust (if you look at the history of the war and how the german attack was repulsed very close to Israel).August 3, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #889941
What does that yiddish translate to?August 3, 2012 5:16 am at 5:16 am #889942☕️coffee addictParticipant
the jews were saved in ammerica tooAugust 3, 2012 5:47 am at 5:47 am #889943
it translates to – the Americans should go, we don’t need them
the chofetz chaim said that the reason America has never had a war on its mainland is bizechus there has never been official anti-semitism in AmericaAugust 3, 2012 6:25 am at 6:25 am #889944choppyParticipant
The War of 1812 was on the American mainland.August 3, 2012 10:30 am at 10:30 am #889945
So was the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War, and the Mexican-American War (although Texas wasn’t really America back then)… Perhaps he meant this in regarding to the World Wars, and in the 20th century?August 3, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #889946Sam2Participant
Choppy: It’s Apikorsus to even hint that the Chafetz Chaim said anything that isn’t correct. Obviously, the War of 1812 and the Civil War did not occur on American soil. 🙂
(The Mexican-American War actually wasn’t fought on American soil if I recall correctly, because Texas had not yet been admitted to the Union.)August 3, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #889947ItcheSrulikMember
Sam2: Of course. Every time a soldier on either side took a step the “kedushas America” was nifka from under their feet just like VaYoel Moshe says about kedushas eretz yisrael. 🙂August 3, 2012 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #889948☕️coffee addictParticipant
either that or THE CHAFETZ CHAIM DIDNT SAY ITAugust 4, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #889949
I am humbled to be in the presence of Talmidei Chachomim who obviously know all of Tanach, Shas and their meforshim, to know that what is written in those pamphlets has no source.
I am almost embarrassed to say that several years ago, Rabbi Motti Berger told me that the poshut pshat in various parts of Navi and the local meforshim seem to indicate that the majority of, if not all, Jews living in Chutz La’aretz will, R”L, perish before Moshiach comes. He added that we of course can’t know exactly what will happen, but that is the poshut pshat.
But I guess he must have been mistaken…August 4, 2012 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #889950write or wrongParticipant
pcoz-I always heard that it was bc it says on the dollar “In G-d We Trust”. But then I also heard, it’s bc America helps Israel.August 5, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #889951OneOfManyParticipant
Most of the War of 1812 was not fought on Union soil.August 5, 2012 3:22 am at 3:22 am #889952Sam2Participant
CA: There was very clearly a 🙂 in my post. It was not at all meant to be serious. It was a little humor L’kavod Shabbos.August 5, 2012 3:46 am at 3:46 am #889953choppyParticipant
The British burnt down the White House and the U.S. Capitol during the War of 1812.August 5, 2012 4:49 am at 4:49 am #889954
There are plenty of scary prophecies in the neviim regarding E”Y, like how Eretz Yisrael’s inhabitants will literally head for the hills to survive and only “mechtza” will, as I recall.
On the other hand, we have a mesorah from Europe that the last stop in Galus for Torah is America.
Also, bringing raayos from the Holocaust (which was a completely bizarre and unthinkable *chain* of events, each more unlikely than the event before it) is foolish. Hashem’s cheshbon then has nothing to do with His cheshbonos now. Nobody (outside of anyone with Ruach HaKodesh) knows.
Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.
Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.
As far as the C”C story, there has never been a major war on American soil waged by non-Americans, for the purpose of occupying and annexing its (entire) soil.
The worst domestic conflict was the Civil War, and no foreign invading power was involved. Others, like the Mexican War (Texas), were localized conflicts, and even in 1812 the British goal was not to reoccupy and rule the country.August 5, 2012 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #889955
I am humbled by the presence of such great Talmidei Chachomim here in the CR who know all of Tanach, Shas and their meforshim, and who therefore know that what is written in those pamphlets has no mekor.
Nevertheless, a few years I was told by Rabbi Motti Berger that the poshut peshat in several places in Nevi’im and the meforshim is that the majority of, if not all, Jews living in Chutz La’aretz will R”L perish. He added that of course no one can know exactly what will happen, but that that is the poshut pshat.August 5, 2012 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #889956rabbiofberlinParticipant
The Civil War was the most murderous war for Americans, whether on american soil or elsewhere. I pfefer to accept that the C.C. never said such an obvious mistake.August 5, 2012 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #889957
I think they already didAugust 6, 2012 1:25 am at 1:25 am #889958ShowjoeMember
i think the C”C meant no wars on american mainland while america was hosting Jews. but not sureAugust 6, 2012 3:37 am at 3:37 am #889959
Showjoe, historical evidence shows some of the earliest “pilgrims” to America were Jews escaping religious prosecution in Europe.August 6, 2012 6:16 am at 6:16 am #889960
Shraga, your post doesn’t seem to square with this:
“Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.
Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.”
Again, we also *know* that one’s purpose on this Earth is, essentially, to the best Eved Hashem that this individual can be.
So, mima nafshach. If, after all considerations are taken, you can be a better eved Hashem in E”Y, then no Mashiach sevaras are necessary to indicate moving there, assuming security, parnassa, etc, are all worked out. On the other hand, if moving to E”Y would ch”V cause a yerida in your Avodas Hashem, then you are presumably forbidden to move there, no matter what pashut pshat may be in Neviim or elsewhere (in part because ain safeik motzi medei vadai, and this is at least a sifeik sifeika, if not an even greater-level safeik).
As well, why would Chazal, when addressing this topic, not have simply stated that living in E”Y would save one from Chevlei Mashiach rather than saying what they did? Evidently, according to known Chazal, it is not necessary to move to E”Y to escape chevlei Mashiach.
In addition, there was a major asifa held recently in NY, and the more recent Siyum HaShas. If they felt this was the case, would not one of the gedolim and rabbanim, including some from E”Y, had even hinted that everyone should return to E”Y ASAP? That’s not as important as the Internet? I don’t recall reading there was any mention of this.
Finally, to add another point, Ain LaDayan Ela Ma SheEinav Rowos and Ain HKB”H ba BiTruniya al Biriyosav. Of all places where Jews have resided since the founding of the State of Israel, the most dangerous place on Earth, in so many ways, has been that same State of Israel. So it’s irresponsible to ignore that clear reality.
That’s all theoretically speaking, of course. For real practical guidance, asking your trusted LOR is far more prudent.
May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.August 6, 2012 11:52 am at 11:52 am #889962abcd2Participant
Re chofetz Chaim post: agree with above as false. However great European Gedolim said that American Jews would be protected due the great amount of tzedaka they give I read this quote in more then one book and I believe it was referring to the Gezeira of the holocaust. Hashem should protect all Jews from all tragedies wherever they are(I cant recall but it was a direct quote either Reb chaim Ozer or Reb Boruch Ber lebowitz ZTL I do not think it was the Chofetz Chaim)August 6, 2012 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #889963
Your svaros are good ones, but they’re still only svaros. If the Navi says otherwise, the svaros won’t help.
It would be nice if someone here who has access to a boki beTanach could ask him about this…August 7, 2012 4:01 am at 4:01 am #889964
First, I appreciate your kind words.
Second, while it may be true that what I wrote is “only sevaras”, trying to extrapolate halacha liMaaseh from “pashut pshat” in Navi doesn’t seem like the correct approach.
Here are some more sevaras.
1. We have the Koach HaTefillah, which is above almost all else.
2. “Pashut Pshat in Navi”, without a guaranteed context, seems difficult to apply liMaaseh, unless one has Ruach HaKodesh. Maybe the Holocaust was all that and more, and Mashiach will actually come tomorrow? Who knows?
Given those 2 points, aren’t the “sevaras” at least as persuasive liMaaseh than “pashut pshat in Navi” that is literally wide open to interpretation?
But I do agree that “It would be nice if someone here who has access to a boki beTanach could ask him about this…”August 7, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #889965ShowjoeMember
Curiosity: i meant a major presence of Jews in america.
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