August 10, 2014 4:23 am at 4:23 am #613364
I know a yeshivish guy who went out with a yeshivish girl on 10 shidduch dates. They got really close to eachother and they were getting very serious(or so the girl thought) and after 10 dates the guy sent the girl a text message wishing her hatzlacha and telling her that he is not interested in her anymore. The girl got really hurt by this and after she got his text she tried to call him to talk to him about this and to understand why he was breaking up with her but he didn’t answer any of her phone calls. I was very disturbed by this because I knew how hurt the girl was especially because he ended it over a text message after such a long time and I talked to his Rabbi about it and he told me that the girl should be thankful that the guy even bothered to text her to say that he was ending the relationship and that he didn’t just tell the shadchan to tell her that it was over. I know that the guy was afraid that she would try to convince him to stay with her. But I think that after such a long time he shouldn’t have ended it like this and that he should have at least answered her phone call one last time. What do you think about this?August 10, 2014 4:59 am at 4:59 am #1027181
I feel bad for the girl that she had to date a sociopath, but, sure is better to find out that he’s a sociopath after 10 dates than after the wedding.August 10, 2014 5:21 am at 5:21 am #1027182
I don’t think it was right of him to text it like that. He should have told the shadchan. However, I don’t know the full story. He didn’t want to answer her phone calls, or he was just busy? Maybe something happened and he wasn’t able to pick up the phone whenever she called. Even if he was deliberately not answering her, he still should have gone to the shadchan (and if he really was yeshivish, he wouldn’t have ended it that way. He would have gone to his rebbe who most probably would not have told him to text it.)August 10, 2014 5:58 am at 5:58 am #1027183
FJG everything you report is one sided it may be the truth or it may not be it is hearsay, if its true then yes he should have manned up and told her over the phone which still is not the best way to hear this news because there is no best way to hear this news, we could conjecture as to why he did this but we wont know the truth. I also don’t know what your relationship to this former couple is (friend of hers, friend of his, nosy neighbor) but i fail to see why you should be talking about this to his Rov.August 10, 2014 6:08 am at 6:08 am #1027184
How does it typically go in the yeshivishe world after a couple date for a while? Does it typically go through the shadchan, if one side decides to break it off, or typically the girl will call the guy (or vice versa) or it could go either way?August 10, 2014 7:13 am at 7:13 am #1027185
It really depends on the community but in this case the guy and the girl were very emotionally involved with eachother and they were getting serious with eachother. A few things came up and this is why the guy decided to break it off and he texted the girl that he is breaking it off and then he told the shadchan. But the girl tried to call him and text him because she wanted to talk to him about what happened and he didn’t return any of her calls or texts. Instead he called the shadchan and asked her to tell the girl to stop trying to contact him so she gave up and she stopped.August 10, 2014 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1027186
The one time I had to break it off with a guy I did it in person. Then I went to my friend’s house and cried.August 10, 2014 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1027187
Is there any different protocol or societal expectation (in the yeshivishe community) about telling in person if it were the girl deciding to break it off rather than the guy?August 10, 2014 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1027188
No, it is the same. If its more than several dates, you need to tell in person.
Although, among the very yeshivish where I think they don’t ever “drop the shadchan”, I think it may be acceptable to break up via shadchan.
Zeh ha’klal, breaking up after more than several dates has to be done in the same format that you’d get engaged. If you would get engaged via shadchan, you can break up via shadchan. If you would get engaged via text, you can get engaged via text. If you would get engaged by ignoring her calls, you can break up by ignoring her calls.August 10, 2014 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1027189
Nothing to discuss. Totally unacceptable. Scary.August 10, 2014 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1027190
IMO as a cranky old lady, this boy proved himself to be completely not ready for marriage, and thus the girl seems to have dodged a bullet. Of course, we only have HER version of the story, so there could be more to it than that of which we are aware.
In general, people need to man up and act like grownups in these uncomfortable moments in life. I “get” why a guy might choose the cowardly and less confrontational route. It is a difficult conversation to have with the girl. But there will ALWAYS be difficult conversations in life, breaking up, firing someone from a job, BEING the someone who got fired, telling one’s children unpleasant news,telling a friend when he is doing something hurtful, telling one’s SPOUSE the same thing, etc. And the sooner we learn how to deal with these unpleasant and uncomfortable moments that inevitable crop up in all our lives, the better.
Sending a text after 10 dates is just cowardly,impersonal, and makes the person who does it, look like a jerk. I know people who have done that after 2 or 3 dates, and perhaps that made less of a hassle for them. But when feelings are more seriously involved and there may already be a strong attachment, the person with whom someone is breaking up, deserves at least an honest conversation in person. It is just simple menschlechkeit. This cranky old lady has spoken.August 10, 2014 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1027191
Lior, I don’t think so.
The yeshivish community is generally much stricter with the guys than with the girls. (For reference you can read the numerous threads here that excoriate the guys for not continuing to date a girl they find unattractive, but then patiently explain to us, as if we were mentally deficient, that of course we cannot expect a girl to marry someone she is not attracted to.) In this case though, the “rules” seem pretty equal. If we’re talking about someone very, very yeshivish, then the dating won’t go to ten dates. Your average yeshivish guy or girl knows that it’s completely inexcusable to break it off at such a late date, by texting or talking to a shadchan. But mentchlichkeit (aka consideration to others and general courtesy) is hard to come by these days. A normal yeshivish or OOT or FFB or BT or OTD or Heimish or tuna beigel or any-label-you-can-come-up-with male or female will not do this.
Will the general public be kinder to the sweet, sensitive girl who does this and not vilify her as harshly as a guy? Wouldn’t surprise me.August 10, 2014 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1027192
In a community where it is acceptable to break up via shadchan at that stage, then that would have been a much, much better choice, with all respect to this rav. A text message has the air of a quick, emotionless check-this-off-the-to-do-list. It removes the responsibility from the guy- he doesn’t need to explain himself, he doesn’t need to face the consequences of his words and actions…
At least the shadchan would ask for an explanation.August 10, 2014 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1027193
Addendum: I notice that in my long list of classifications I omitted an important one, MO.
A normal MO male or female would also not behave in the aforementioned inexcusable manner.
To all the great MO CR members, there was no intention to suggest that your community is more lacking in mentchlichkeit than, let’s say, the OTD or BT or tuna beigel or Frum From flatBush community.
Menchlichkeit is a rare commodity. Everywhere.August 10, 2014 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1027194
oot for lifeParticipant
I find it interesting two threads by two new users:
Thread A: Boy saying girl doesn’t like what Rabbi said
Thread B: Girl saying doesn’t like what Rabbi said about another friend
I could be wrong, but it seems as if the two of you are getting input into a personal disagreement from complete strangers… but hey i guess that’s what the coffee room is forAugust 10, 2014 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1027195
There is something much worse, which some people do. They do not give the shadchan a call if the answer is no. Sometimes it is the shadchan who doesn’t give an answer if it was a no.August 10, 2014 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1027196
Mr Melamed, any person or shadchan who does not give any answer when the answer is no, is beyond not menchlich. Any person like that requires adjectives that it is not possible to post in the CR, or to even express privately less than 2 months before Yom Kippur. I would tell you though, that such a person is the lowest type of az panim, and we all know where an az panim ends up.August 10, 2014 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1027197
Menachem, so how does the date find out that it’s over?August 10, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1027198
chayav inish livisumayParticipant
Mr Melamed, any person or shadchan who does not give any answer when the answer is no, is beyond not menchlich. Any person like that requires adjectives that it is not possible to post in the CR, or to even express privately less than 2 months before Yom Kippur.
I’m trying to decide whether it’s inspirational that you control yourself in the months leading up to yom kippur or whether it’s pathetic that when it’s not within a few months of yom kippur you let your mouth flow freelyAugust 10, 2014 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1027199
chayav inish livisumayParticipant
But on the topic at hand I think that it is totally cowardly and stems from a certain level of discomfort expressing emotions. How does this guy plan on proposing???August 11, 2014 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1027200
I can assure you that 25 years ago nobody would even think of sending such a message thru a text!August 11, 2014 6:16 am at 6:16 am #1027201
Daniel Q BlogMember
oomis got it on the head. Perhaps she really is the best bubbe ever?
To take this guy, he might be a bad seed. But why are we looking for the worst in someone that we don’t even know!! Let me explain a likely dynamic:
Many guys in yeshiva don’t have to man-up too often (let me say this really applies for most young men). They (the guys in yeshiva) do not have to put someone down (even in a manner like this that is necessary – you can’t marry someone you don’t want to) and don’t want to. They do not like the feeling of hurting another person. By texting, it’s easier, less painful – death by hit man to use an extreme comparision. In this case, they will not have to deal with it because a girl and guy in a shidduch will only be involved as long the shidduch proceeds. This is not out of a bad place, just a really cruel (BUT UNKNOWINGLY SO) decision. This is something that someone should be mechanech their children for – how to say no. Example: There are only 4 seats in the car to something fun, and 5 friends want to come. Tell your son (practice first) how to break the news like a mentsch to the fifth friend.
Hashem does this all the time. We want something now, we want something a certain way. Hashem says no, not that way, you can’t do that particular thing or at least right now. It’s still out of love. An employee that is not working out, a person that wants what cannot be given, whatever. It’s not an aveirah to say no, it’s a mitzvah to say no like Hashem without hate, with love, with compassion.
This is not some easy feat. Let’s not just go down the jump on the Yeshiva guy path. He might have a serious reason to not want to continue and knows his inefficiency at having a “talk” with someone. It’s hard for him, and it’s hard for all of us. The way to help this young lady is by helping our sons or talmidim to stop this happening as much, not by beating a dead horse.August 11, 2014 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1027202
Not only is it cruel and hurtful to end a shidduch in this way, it also says a lot about his Rabbi – and none of it good. So now we know why this sorry excuse for a potential husband behaved the way he did. His Rabbi has just as bad an attitude as his talmid. And therein, my friends, lies the problem: our young men’s “role models” are sadly lacking in mentchlechkeit.August 11, 2014 10:09 am at 10:09 am #1027203
The boy came to the conclusion that the shidduch is not a proper fit, that they aren’t for each other. Both he for her and her for him.
So WHAT IS THE HETTER for him to continue a line of communication??! He no longer has a viable reason to be in contact with her, it is now pritzus. Communication ended. OVER.August 11, 2014 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1027204
I don’t think that bad manners, or lack of social awareness, has anything to do with being Yeshivish or not. There are no shortage of creeps, anywhere.August 11, 2014 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1027205
oomis got it on the head. Perhaps she really is the best bubbe ever?”
Why, thank you. I like to think so! 🙂August 11, 2014 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1027206
He no longer has a viable reason to be in contact with her, it is now pritzus. Communication ended. OVER.’
I SO hope you were being facetious. This is a conversation for a tachlis, NOT pritzus.August 11, 2014 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1027207
@oomis in all seriousness:
There was no longer any potential tachlis. It takes two for a relationship to form and he clearly did not see a future together. The boy found the most proper indiscreet manner to courteously end their association. She aught to respect his decision and appreciate his way of communicating it. The girl should not expect a romantic, goyish ‘breakup’. This is the Yeshiva World NOT Hollywood.August 11, 2014 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1027208
it should have been communicated via the shadchan not text. i dont fault him for not wanting to tell her directly especially since he was afraid she would try to convince him to change his mind and that would be inappropriate. but even without that once it was clear they were not going to marry each other it is proper to minimize any contact, like chochom-ibber said, to as little as possible. the reason she preferred to speak to him directly, aside from wanting to change his mind, is because she wanted to lean on their opposite gender relationship. especially considering that they already had an emotional relationship with each other being the opposite gender, it wouldnt be appropriate for it to continue once the decision not to marry was made.August 11, 2014 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1027209
She doesn’t want romance. She wants respect.August 11, 2014 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1027210
Chochom-ibber thankyou for commenting on my post but I have a problem with a few of the things that you wrote. You are saying that the girl should not expect a romantic goyishe breakup because this is the YeshivaWorld and not Hollywood. I want to tell you that this guy gave her all of the signs in the world that he likes her and he even told her that he is sure that she is the one for him so try to imagine how she felt when all of a sudden he broke it off with her. I can tell you that she is really in a lot of pain over this and she is a frum yeshivish girl who never before had such a relationship with a guy. She tried to call him because she wanted to figure out what went wrong and what made him change his mind all of a sudden. Even though he told the shadchan after why he broke it off, he could have answered her phone call one last time to talk to her about what happened if he saw that it was so important to her especially after he told her that he knows that she is his zivug. How can you say that this is goyishe? I am sure that if this would happen to you or your daughter then you wouldn’t think this way.August 12, 2014 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1027211
Chochom-ibber, thankyou for commenting on my post but I have a problem with a few of the things that you wrote. You are saying that the girl should not expect a romantic goyishe breakup because this is the YeshivaWorld and not Hollywood. I want to tell you that this guy gave her all of the signs in the world that he likes her and he even told her that he is sure that she is the one for him so try to imagine how she felt when all of a sudden he broke it off with her. I can tell you that she is really in a lot of pain over this and she is a frum yeshivish girl who never before had such a relationship with a guy. She tried to call him because she wanted to figure out what went wrong and what made him change his mind all of a sudden. Even though he told the shadchan after why he broke it off, he could have answered her phone call one last time to talk to her about what happened if he saw that it was so important to her especially after he told her that he knows that she is his zivug. How can you say that this is goyishe? I am sure that if this would happen to you or your daughter then you wouldn’t think this way.August 12, 2014 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1027212
Oops, double post.August 12, 2014 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1027213
The boy found the most proper indiscreet manner to courteously end their association.
Courteous?! Are you serious? Sending a text to end a relationship is the least courteous way I can think of. It’s rude, disrespectful and insulting.
The girl should not expect a romantic, goyish ‘breakup’.
I’m sorry, I think that is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a while. A phone call is too much of chukas hagoyim for you? I’m pretty sure this lack of decency is more Hollywoodesque than a phone call and an explanation would have been.August 12, 2014 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1027214
Chochom-ib, don’t feel bad. I also have this problem where my posts get taken too seriously. Don’t worry about it. You’re a comedian, for sure. I loved the part about “the boy found the most proper indiscreet manner…”
Guess nobody else noticed…August 12, 2014 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1027215
I am not trying to make him feel bad chas ve shalom. I am trying to get him to see the situation from the girl’s side too because the girl and I are actually very interested in his post.August 12, 2014 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1027216
I think that with all due respect the guy should have answered her phone calls and explained himself to her. She was probobly very hurt because after 10 dates most yeshivish people are engaged by then. I am not blaming the guy for ending it the way that he did because he probobly didn’t want to hurt her even more by talking to her directly about it but I think that his Rabbi should have been the bigger person and he should have told him to be sensitive to the girl’s feelings.August 12, 2014 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1027217
“especially after he told her that he knows that she is his zivug.”
Wait he said that she is his zivug?!?! Does anyone else find that odd?
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