January 20, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #594361mewhoParticipant
I have heard a couple of stories of in laws buying fake diamonds for their sons fiancee and the girl thinking it is real. one such story came out nearly a dozen years after marriage when the ring needed to be repaired and a jeweler told the wife the diamond was not real. has anyone else heard these stories?January 20, 2011 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #944378nfgo3Member
Everyone has heard these stories, but no one knows which ones are true. Why bother?January 20, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #944381
If true, the boy and his parents could be guilty of gneivas daas.January 20, 2011 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #944382kapustaParticipant
A few questions:
1. If this does happen, I would think it would be in a situation where the boys family can not afford a real ring? If this is all they can do, is that anyones fault? Are they supposed to steal a ring for the new dil?
2. Say it really does happen, what is there to do about it?
3. Would a treated diamond pass inspection? Why is it different?January 20, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #944383Boro Park GirlMember
A girl got a treated diamond and once when she was cooking the diamond was exposed to too much heat and it changed color/clarity.
Poor Kallah who thought that her diamond was a real beauty til then!January 21, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #944384yehudayonaParticipant
When my wife and I were discussing getting married, we agreed that a diamond was a waste of money. That was at a time when most diamonds were coming out of apartheid South Africa, so we also had an ethical issue with buying one. After several years of marriage, she decided that she wanted a ring after all, so she picked out a nice CZ ring for a couple of hundred dollars.
If you think a diamond is forever, it isn’t. My mother’s diamond was shattered internally when a window sash fell on it. B”H, her finger was fine.January 21, 2011 1:07 am at 1:07 am #944385winny1Participant
We have all heard these stories and it wasn’t right to be less than honest with the girl. Maybe she has a right to be upset or angry that she wasn’t leveled with, regardless of the reason. But, would it have changed the girls mind regarding the marriage? I would think no one can be that shallow.January 21, 2011 1:11 am at 1:11 am #944386
Is your marriage any less valid? Is your love less real?
If you need a “real” diamond to prove to you that your husband loves you, you have a lot more garbage going on than the CZ in your setting.January 21, 2011 1:18 am at 1:18 am #944387mewhoParticipant
if they cannot afford a diamond they should be honest about it and tell the girl. if she loves the boy and has good midos she will accept his financial situation. its a whole lot better than lying about itJanuary 21, 2011 1:53 am at 1:53 am #944388deiyezoogerMember
If someone dosent afford a real dimond and wants to give a CZ thats ok, but its not ok to lie about it.January 21, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #944389HaKatanParticipant
As mewho and deiyezooger said, just don’t lie about it. Money comes and goes, but once trust is broken, it is very difficult to repair.January 21, 2011 3:11 am at 3:11 am #944390aries2756Participant
If you lie about this, you will never be trusted with anything. This is just plain trickery and there is no way to deny it. It is much better to tell the truth up front and the shadchan should explain the financial situation from the start. You can’t just pull things like this on a young girl and her family and not expect a reaction. And you can’t lie about something like this to a wife or a daughter-in-law for years and not expect this to have huge repercussions.
Marriage is based on honesty and trust. Mother-in-law/dil relationships are based on honesty and trust. Doing such a thing absolutely turns the tables on the foundation of trust and honesty. How can you trust someone who lied to you from day one? What else have they lied to you about? What this says is “you are not important to me therefore I can lie to you, if you were important to me I would tell you the truth because I would be afraid to start off on the wrong foot or do anything to ruin our relationship.”.January 21, 2011 3:16 am at 3:16 am #944391
OK, my husband could not afford a diamond, but he wanted me to have “the ring” and with my haskama we got an inexpensive CZ.I already was about to marry “the real diamond” anyway. I never told anyone it was a diamond, and as no one asked me, I never told them it was NOT a diamond, either. It was a modest-sized stone, and I loved it. On our tenth anniversary my husband bought me a diamond enternity band. Not because I requested it, but because he wanted me to have it. As long as no one is trying to fool anyone, I see no reason why iot has to be a real diamond, if it is not affordable. But is there not an inyan that a kiddushin ring would cause the chuppah to be invalid if the bride thought it was worth more than it actually was?January 21, 2011 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #944392
Am I missing something?
Why does everyone think they are OWED a $5,000 diamond upon engagement?
Yes, its very nice to receive and exchange gifts but to say that you would lose his trust if he doesnt give you a “real” diamond seems absurd to me.January 21, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #944393
When I became engaged, Eeees knew that I was not rich, and would have been fine without an engagement ring. As it was, I proposed with a candy ring (perhaps making Eeees the first person to eat her engagement ring).
After a few months, we did get a ring. My mother gave the diamonds from her engagement ring (my parents are divorced). I had them reset into a new setting for her.
The WolfJanuary 21, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #944394
Yes, its very nice to receive and exchange gifts but to say that you would lose his trust if he doesnt give you a “real” diamond seems absurd to me.
The loss of trust isn’t because he gave a fake diamond. The loss of trust is because he either outright lied about it or led her to believe it was a real diamond.
If he told her upfront the diamond isn’t real, there would not be a loss of trust.
The WolfJanuary 21, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #944395cofeefanMember
i wouldnt care if i got a CZ or a fake diamond as long as my chosson is real and good. i just wouldnt want to be lied to. it is more important to me to ahve a perfect husband than a perfect piece of jewelry on my finger. thats just my opinionJanuary 21, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #944396
“The loss of trust is because he either outright lied about it or led her to believe it was a real diamond”
I find it hard to believe anyone would say, “Do you like the REAL diamond I bought you?”
So any assumptions that it is real are your own.January 21, 2011 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #944397TheGoqParticipant
fan don’t expect perfection you’ll never get itJanuary 21, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #944398
So any assumptions that it is real are your own.
On the contrary. Since diamonds are customary for engagement, she has the right to believe that something diamond-looking that’s given to her as an engagement ring is an actual diamond.
You can argue that the custom is wrong or silly… but for the nonce, it is the custom.
The WolfJanuary 21, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #944399
I’m not going to argue w custom, because it has been around far longer than I have.
But, by the same Fairytale logic she has the *right* to believe that the Man standing in front of her will always be able to provide for her every need.
What is she going to do when she realizes he has a fault, feel betrayed?
My issue here is that if someone EXPECTS a real diamond, or feels slighted when they dont receive one, they are simply not ready for a real relationship.January 21, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #944400
My issue here is that if someone EXPECTS a real diamond, or feels slighted when they dont receive one, they are simply not ready for a real relationship.
Again, the issue here isn’t that she didn’t get a real diamond. The issue here is that she was either told or led to believe that it was real.
If someone hands you a ten dollar bill as a gift, you have a right to expect that it’s real, unless you were told otherwise. You may not have a right to expect the gift in the first place, but once given, you have the right to expect that it’s genuine, unless otherwise told.
An engagement ring is really no different. We may agree that she doesn’t have the right to expect a diamond, but once a ring with a stone that looks like a diamond is given, she has the right to expect that the diamond is real. His not saying anything to the contrary (and certainly his actual lying about it if it happened) is a cause for loss of trust.
The WolfJanuary 21, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #944401
I hear.January 21, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #944402cofeefanMember
i know goq i knowJanuary 24, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #944403aries2756Participant
Just as you would say, “my parents cannot afford to buy us furniture” or parents would say “my budget for the chasanah is very minimal, I can’t afford real flowers and would prefer using g’mach fake flowers, etc.” that is the time to say “we can’t afford to buy a diamond ring, we don’t want the Kallah to feel badly so if she wants, we can buy a nice real setting with a CZ stone, or we can buy a very small real stone, etc.”January 24, 2011 9:45 am at 9:45 am #944405haifagirlParticipant
I was under the impression that the custom of giving a diamond ring was so the chosson has made a financial investment, thereby guaranteeing he won’t back out of the deal.
On the other hand, I know of one group who does not give an engagement ring at all until the yichud room. They don’t want to have to deal with ring issues if the engagement breaks.January 24, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #944406doodle jumpParticipant
I find it ridiculous that people feel so obligated to purchase something that they can hardly afford. A ring, yes. But it does not have to be a rock. Making a wedding is such a simcha and to keep taking out loans because the need to purchase things that are so very expensive and have nothing to do with setting up a house is plain silly. Be honest. This is all I can afford. And if someone has a problem with it, than that is not the person you would for your child.January 24, 2011 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #944407ZachKessinMember
I would like to point out that the quality of the ring and the quality of the marriage have nothing to do with each other! When I got enganged I was not able to afford a diamond so I got my wife a silver ring that I knew she would like and that I could afford.
Also you can always upgrade the ring later if you are in a better shape!
On the other hand telling her that a ring is real when its not is a really bad start to things.April 8, 2013 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #944408koillel101Member
hi refreshing this thread cuz its a big issue now. A Kallah got a CZ and asked the rav if she cud break the engagement cuz she felt it showed her in laws were very stingy. I x know details of if the inlaws cud really afford more but was a pretty serious case.
Can we change the minhag to something cheaper that will ahve the same significance? or maybe just instill values into the girls???April 8, 2013 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #944409
Was she told right away that it was a cz?April 8, 2013 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #944410
My chosson could not afford a real diamond when we became engaged, and with my approval we shopped for an inexpensive cz ring. Instead of wearing a diamond, I married one.
Awwwwwww!!! So sweet!April 9, 2013 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #944411
Now let everyone explode: In one of the Satmer communities they are told ONLY to give C.Z. diamonds.April 9, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #944412yitayningwutParticipant
Instead of wearing a diamond, I married one.
Lololol. I will pass that along to my fiancee and see if she goes for it.April 9, 2013 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #944413Rabbi PerfectMember
Well I’ll tell you this much, I really hope that this minhag changes because I know of families that had to take on major loans in order to pay for the ring as well, or in other instances, the parents forced the bochur out of the BM to work, in order to pay for his own ring and bracelet.April 9, 2013 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #944414
One less thing to argue about. It’s so sickening the trend of trial marriages nowadays. What’s is kadosh about the kiddushin of such chuppahs?April 9, 2013 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #944415interjectionParticipant
Her parents are going to be supporting him whether or not the have the money. They will find the money each month because they want to show how much they galue what the sil is doing for their daughter. Why the double standard?April 9, 2013 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #944416yitayningwutParticipant
there are other words with that root as well..April 9, 2013 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #944417walton157Member
Ladies: Do not allow yourselves to be naive. Have your engagment ring apparaised by a reputable dealer. You do not have to tell your husand/fiancee. Once that ring is on your finger, it is yours and your business.
G-d forbid you have to sell your ring, you must know its worth so you don’t get rooked. If you are old enough to get married you are old enough to find out the worth of your ring.
This has nothing to do with “but I love him”. This has to do with business.
You can also have it insured. How many times do we go to a simcha and take off our rings to wash for HaMoztie and almost forget it on the counter next to the sink? How many of these rings were “lost” because in truth the wife really didn’t liike the ring to begin with. But, this is only good if the ring is insured.April 9, 2013 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #944418acersParticipant
walton, do you price it every time you get another one from each husband?April 10, 2013 7:49 am at 7:49 am #944419interjectionParticipant
There are those that seem to think that getting engagement jewelry is some new meshugas. The imahos were laden with jewelry.
I’m going to bet that the girls who didn’t get a real ring felt less special because they felt like he and his family weren’t willing to sacrifice anything for her. Even if she convinced herself that she’s marrying the boy and not the ring, I’m sure it will always remain a huge disappointment. It’s a once in a lifetime present and should be done properly.April 10, 2013 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #944420haifagirlParticipant
Now let everyone explode: In one of the Satmer communities they are told ONLY to give C.Z. diamonds.
Why would this make anybody explode? I don’t think most people have any problem with CZs. The problem is if the girl doesn’t know it’s a CZ. I imagine that all the Satmar girls know it’s a CZ if that’s their minhag. (Dare I say, “Duh!”?)
It’s so sickening the trend of trial marriages nowadays.
Okay, I’m stumped. What’s a trial marriage?April 10, 2013 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #944421April 10, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #944422
Explode? Because there are many individuals who hold the kallah jewelry should be real. I say buy what you can afford, but buy real.April 10, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #944423
I say buy what you can afford, but buy real.
Yeah, I hate the imaginary stuff. It’s so overpriced.April 10, 2013 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #944424afsherParticipant
interjection: An engagement diamond indeed is a modern day meshugas instituted by the De Beers diamond giant as a way to trump up business. There is no historical basis to giving a Jewish bride a diamond.April 10, 2013 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #944425🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I got a saphire. I think they are prettier, it was more affordable, and that is what I believe the luchos are made of.April 10, 2013 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #944426
“I’m going to bet that the girls who didn’t get a real ring felt less special because they felt like he and his family weren’t willing to sacrifice anything for her”
Well, you would lose that bet with me. My husband made me feel special then and still does, nearly 36 years later. The sacrifices my husband has made for our children and me all our married life, far outweigh the naarishkeit of seeing how big and expensive a rock one can afford to buy. And yes, I love pretty jewelry, too, but B”H I was never as materialistic as we have turned our present generation into being. Assessing a potential relationship based on how many trinkets the guy or his family will give you, is a REALLY bad way to start a marriage. There are some very “generous” bauble-givers who are LOUSY spouses.April 11, 2013 1:52 am at 1:52 am #944427
Oomis: I’m with you on this one. Boy have times changed. I received an engagement ring only a few weeks before my chasuna, with not one other piece of jewelry. Can you imagine, I didn’t feel lacking at all. Nowadays things have really changed, most kallahs get at least 4 pieces of jewelry and they could still complain! The saying goes, ” It’s not the ringel but the yingel! Unfortunately, we’ve raised a very materialistic generation.April 11, 2013 2:36 am at 2:36 am #944428
I know of families that had to take on major loans in order to pay for the ring
Can anyone tell me how much a typical ring goes for?April 11, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #944429Rabbi PerfectMember
oomis and a maamin: Please get into shadchanus!! Please teach and preach your mentalities to all the girls out there! If the guy can afford to get her a ring, that’s great, go for it and surprise her! I don’t think they should expect it! And girls please STOP COMPARING!!!! One of my friends told me he had to “upgrade” his wife’s ring because although she didn’t say it, the look on her face was enough, when her friend said “oh but yours is nice too!” and he now has to spend another 3 grand!
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