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Would anybody like to contribute to – or simply read – a topic that posts a daily bit of information about proper English. For many posters, English is a second – or third, fourth or fifth – language, and it shows in the English mistakes they make in their posts. English is my first language. I learned more Yiddish from the Borscht Belt comedians on TV than from my parents and grandparents, and I can read a siddur and daven in Hebrew, but when I visit Israel, I cannot read a menu or the labels on the products in supermarkets.
Here is my first tip: There is no English word “anyways,” as in “We don’t like sour cream anyways, so we never buy it.”
There was a poster here some time ago named haifagirl who served as the YWN CR’s unofficial English Language Police Officer.
Would anybody like to contribute to – or simply read – a topic that posts a daily bit of information about proper English. For many posters, English is a second – or third, fourth or fifth – language, and it shows in the English mistakes they make in their posts. English is my first language. I learned more Yiddish from the Borscht Belt comedians on TV than from my parents and grandparents, and I can read a siddur and daven in Hebrew, but when I visit Israel, I cannot read a menu or the labels on the products in supermarkets.
The first sentence should end with a question mark rather than a period.
The fourth sentence is a run-on sentence and overuses commas.Dovid: Huju likely missed class that day the teacher explained those points.
English grammar and spelling are rapidly changing. One factor is that oral and visual communications are much easier now (Skype, Zoom, Webex and Google hangout, are “in”, long thoughtful letter writing is “out”). Another factor is that while English has become the universal global language, most English speakers are not native speakers. “Texting” requires quick terse comments, now ones based on careful grammar and spelling.
Skill at writing and reading English is becoming a specialized, and marketable, skill. But it is probably a fool’s errand to expect the average Anglophone (frum or not) to takes the rules of grammar and spelling seriously.
Dovitbt
Lol Ubiquitin’s law of the internet strikes again.
Incidently I don’t get people’s hangup with “proper grammer” especially in an informal setting like the coffee room.
for example “There is no English word “anyways,” ”
Says who? Plenty of people use it, and nobody has any trouble understanding it So why isn’t it a word. All online dictionaries have it as a word (albeit they lable it “informal” or “slang” ) so relax the coffee room isn’t so formal.Dear huju,
I applaud your efforts. It’s unfortunate that you cannot read an Israeli menu or understand the labels. Perhaps there should be more information or comments on the correct use of Hebrew. I am fluent in English and modern Israeli Hebrew and will be happy to assist.
I respectfully disagree with ubiquitin. Poor use of any language fails to accurately convey the message. Due to the online nature of the Coffee Room, the written word is all we have. We lack intonation, body language, sound-based emphasis and all the other cues that help us understand each other. Often I read a post and have no idea what the writer means. Furthermore, mistakes such as here-hear, their-they’re and others force cause English speakers to pause and spend time “figuring it out”.
On a Torah level, the ability to write clearly and concisely often separates the scholars whose (not who’s) written works are studied from those whose works are ignored. Without names, compare some Teshuvos of certain Acharonim with the clarity of someone like the Noda B’yehudah. One reads a Noda B’yehudah and knows what he wants to say. That cannot be said of all.
Anyways, I DO like sour cream.
Dear huju.
BRational- I agree with you, but I also agree with ubiquitin. I can’t stand text speak – incomplete words, incomplete sentences and sometimes incomplete thoughts. I also like proper punctuation and apostrophes. Having said that, when I am posting, sometimes while busy and usually on my cheap phone, this platform makes proofreading a pain. So between poor equipment and auto correct , it’s not always pretty.
Dear Huju.
Option B:
Bus’ (wheels go…)Option B:
Bus’ wheels…Option B:
Bus’ wheels go…“anyways” is as much of an English word as “ain’t”.
Dear Huju
Option B:
Bus’ wheels go…huju
“ain’t, not aint.”I assume this too was a joke?
rational
“I respectfully disagree with ubiquitin. Poor use of any language fails to accurately convey the message”Most of the time it doesn’t, and when it does, I’d be more than happy to rephrase
“their-they’re and others force cause English speakers to pause and spend time “figuring it out”.”
how much time does it take to decipher which is meant , is it really that confusing?
Incidentally what does “…force cause…” mean ? don’t worry it took me less than an instant to realize what you mean
Ubiquitin’s law of the internet strikes yet again.I’m not arguing for ignoring all grammar. and certainly in a halachic pesak or any persuasive writing where clarity is important. But in the coffee room, meh Most of the time the point is clear enough in spite of typos or “non-standard” English. If it isnt clear,ask for clarification if you still can’t make sense of it, its usually no big loss.
Ubiquitin: Sometimes readers need to read a comment a second or third time to figure out what the poor writing was intended to mean. A large percentage of readers will simply not do so and thus disregard the comment and whatever point was trying to be made.
Joseph
“A large percentage of readers will simply not do so and thus disregard the comment and whatever point was trying to be made.”
Oh I agree completely
And I agree completly if you want to persuade people or reach a wider audience the n certainly sloppy grammar and poor syntax is a hinderance.
But in most cases so what Yes my posts are riddled with typos, bad autocorrect and plain errors. Is the world really lacking much if “A large percentage of readers” disregard my comments.
nu nu its their loss. I don;t get the big deal.
Are you saddened that my words of wisdom aren’t reaching as wide an audience as they would with better prrofreading ? 🙂
syag
Well said, though wrong apostrophe use does get me a little antsy (other than for contractions) the other one that gets me especially in advertisements is strange quotation marks.Ok e/1 I dont get wat ur prob is. If peeps get wat u mean y woud u waste time riting normaly? Only reason I kno of is bec spell check gets anoying wen it trys 2 fix wat u rote. But usuly riting like this is a/w much easier.
Headline/titles shouldn’t have a period at the end.
Smoetmies spllenig is worng, but you can undresatnd it if all the ltteres are trhee, and the frist and lsat ltteres of the wrods are corecrt.
Im in…
Huju, there is no reason at all to avoid using possessives for things. ALL things have properties. I’ve never heard of your proposed “rule”, but it’s as silly and bogus as the made-up “rule” against splitting infinitives.
to deliberately sound crude or vulgar
You’re a proponent of split infinitives?
“Yes, I used “ain’t” as a provocation.”
Maybe people use “anyways” as a provocation ?
Would anybody like to contribute to – or simply read – a topic that posts a daily bit of information about proper English.
I’d be very happy to. I’m always looking to improve my writing.
As long as the point isn’t to criticize someone else’s writing, it’s a good idea. But it shouldn’t be mandatory (yes, I started a sentence with “but”).
For example, if suddenly ubiquitin would start writing coherent sentences, I’d be worried that his account got hacked, or that someone’s kidneys aren’t getting the proper attention because ubiquitin is too busy proofreading.
DY
lol.
huju
“Maybe it has faded in the last few decades. As I said, there are numerous exceptions”
That’s exactly it. a lot of “rules” aren’t really rules, some that were go into disuse. Words change enough people use “anyways” that arguably it is a word.
DY referenced the “rule” not to start a sentence with the word “but. But of course there is no such rule.
you mention the “rule” “possessive case for things was well-established when I was a high schooler. ” of course there is no such rule as you acknowledge
Today’s rule “Remember to never split infinitives” again not a “rule” as you acknowledged (and earlier you violated as pointed out by Dovidbt)Though
Make no mistake. I agree with DY. I realize my comment sounded like was hooting you down. I definitely find language interesting so keep up with these “rules” discussing them is fun.Though sadly I’ve long given up on improving my writing.
Bill Buckley was very well understood.
Huju, it should be “mistakes in English”. An English mistake is a mistake made by people from England. However, to my great consternation there are very common mistakes in spoken English. Two examples are using “less” to refer to something whose individuals are important (e.g. “less people”) and “there’s” (= there is) when referring to a plural. There is also a certain maggid shiur who constantly uses “a” before a word beginning with a vowel (e.g. “a onion”).
While we are on the subject, I also find it annoying that people constantly say “you know” and use Yiddish words in the middle of English for no apparent reason (e.g. “fregt Rabbi Akiva”). Sometimes it is downright ridiculous. A certain writer wrote about someone finding the Ten Lost Tribes. They wore caftans and streimels and said “Gut Shabbos”.
Anyway, don’t feel bad. Israelis make mistakes in Hebrew. One very common mistake is to use feminine numbers for masculine nouns (e.g. “שלוש עשרה שקל”). They also very often say “כמות של אנשים” instead of “מספר אנשים”. I don’t know who picked it up from whom (not “who” – another common mistake).
Joseh, it should be “Haifa girl” not “haifagirl”. BTW, when I was in school “ain’t” was considered very poor English and”a lot” was a parcel of land.
Avi: I once told her, the self-appointed language enforcer, that it should be Haifa woman, as girl is an incorrect description of herself.
Joseph, do you know her personally? When does a girl become a woman?
Avi: No. By Jews at age 12. By most gentiles at age 18.
By Jews at age 12.
Now is that proper English?
Dovid, did I miss a comma?
Q: When does a girl become a woman?
A: By Jews at age 12.
Aside from the English grammatical atrocity, can you provide a Torah or Talmud source that defines the word “girl”?
huju
Ive frequently heard that criticism and theory (though IVe heard many non yiddish speakers say “by” in similar sentences though it often can mean near which is of course correct.)
. But is it true?If you look up “by” in online version of Webster’s You will find a l ot of defintions of “by” the second group is “by” as an adverb
Under the 2nd definition of “By” as an adverb you find:
2a “at or to another’s home”with an example “stop by”
So if a definition of “by” is “at another’s home” what is wrong with “I am staying by my cousin..” ?
thanks
Dovid, check up the meaning of a boy reaching Bar Mitzvah and of a girl reaching Bas Mitzvah.
Huju, forget about what’s a “better answer”; the only question was if the answer given was correct or, if not, what minor correction was needed that it shouldn’t be incorrect — not necessarily “the best.”
I think it can be reasonably inferred that when a person can be subjected to the death penalty, he/she is no longer a boy/girl but rather a man/woman.
Would you refer to a 29 year old as a boy? Then you cannot refer to a 29 year old as a girl.
Huju, the “rule” against splitting infinitives has not “eroded” — there never ever was such a rule in the first place. Some crank in the 19th century invented it out of whole cloth, and gullible fools like your school teachers eagerly adopted it and attempted to brainwash their students with it. But all that time the language carried merrily along without it, ignoring them and their fatuous dictates. If your teachers taught you a “rule” against using possessives for inanimate objects that was just another example of the same ignorance, but less widespread.
And, according to a beloved English teacher, “a lot” is a parcel of real estate, not an expression of high quantity.
Once again your teacher was wrong. You seem to have had very bad luck in teachers.
Ubiquitin, the definition you refer to is for “by” as an adverb, not as a preposition. So you can certainly stop by at your cousin’s home, but you cannot, in English, stay by your cousin, or even by her home. The use of “by” in that sense is restricted to Jews and Germans, because it is not the English word “by” at all, but the German word “bei”.
You would have been better off citing the 11th definition of “by” as a preposition, “in the opinion of : from the point of view of. // OK by me”. I believe that this usage derives directly from Yiddish, but is limited to that form. It does not extend to all the other uses German and Yiddish have for “bei”, such as “at”, or “with”.
Would you refer to a 29 year old as a boy? Then you cannot refer to a 29 year old as a girl.
Actually you can, because “girl” is not only the opposite of “boy”, it is also the opposite of “guy”. We say “boys and girls”, but also “guys and girls”.
In addition, “boy” and “girl” can refer even to old people, if they are servants. This is unpopular in today’s egalitarian environment, but it remains correct English, just as its equivalent in Hebrew is correct and attested to in Tanach (נער).
And then of course there is the usage “the boys”, or “the girls”, which refers to a group of same-sex friends, even if they are quite old. And there is “old boy” or “old girl”, which davka refers to an old person.
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