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I would like to write about a topic that has been on a mind for a while. The reason I speak up now, is because I have just recently gone through this experience firsthand, which only caused me to believe in my point more strongly.
I’m referring to the costly expense of dating. As a 25 year old frum bachur, I am navigating the path of shidduchim like so many others. What many people don’t think about, is that if you don’t find your bashert relatively quickly, the cost of your dating life begins to accumulate quickly. While it is definitely a necessary expense, it can become rather difficult to bear. For many people, their parents will bear the cost. In my case, as I am a “working boy”, the cost is mine to bear. In either case, the financial strain lands on somebody.
To be clear, I am the last one to suggest reforming the system, as far as the expectations of the dating experience a bachur is expected to provide. I surely believe that one should entertain a shidduch prospect in a manner that shows respect. Of course it is also up to each individual to make sure that they aren’t going above their means. There are definitely solutions to going on respectable dates without breaking the bank every time. Nonetheless, after dating multiple girls, the cost inevitably begins to rise.
I personally just finished a parsha, during which I dated someone for 7 weeks. While I completely trust the Yad Hashem in all situations, the financial burden is definitely felt. Therefore my question to all of you is, why does the dating cost belong to the boy alone? I understand that it should be the boy’s responsibility to be the “man in the relationship”. This can include things like deciding where to go, driving, providing conversation etc. But as far as the money involved, aren’t the boy and girl in this investment together? Don’t they both have the same goal here? When the investment doesn’t lead to fruition, why is the boy the one that must swallow the cost of that?
I would appreciate some input from the coffee room community on this issue.
I think we should stick to dating In a house.
I had 5 dates 4 of which was in a house.
I’m not ChassidicShidduchim can be a difficult time. I think alot more sympathy is given to girls in this area. It’s hard for guys too. And when you spend alot of time and money on a girl and after 7 dates she’s not interested that can be difficult to deal with.
If you are really struggling financially you could try and do more low cost dates. You could do ten hotel dates for the.cost of one fancy restaurant. Going to movies?!? Not something that should be done. Even if it was allowed it’s a waste of time being that you aren’t interacting. But it’s not allowed so don’t even have to go into it.I don’t know if you have had to travel for shidduchim but the flights and car rentals add up really fast. So if you haven’t, consider yourself lucky.
I don’t know about this but sometimes people may be able to figure out if it’s the right person or not earlier on and Don’t need to keep going on so many dates. For example if you aren’t attracted, how big differences in hashakafa or want different life styles then it’s probably time to drop it. No need to keep going out.
It’s also always important to remember that Hashem is with us. We put in our hishtadlus, work on middos, clarify to ourselves what wee need in a shidduch and what we want but can do with out.
Hatzlacha
1. The first several dates with any girl could (and should) easily be done in a lounge, which you listed as costing $9.52.
2. How many are considered to be the first several dates can vary bein gavra l’gavra, but l’chol hadeios it could be the first two dates.
3. So the higher costs are really only kicking in starting on the third or fourth date. How many different girls do you even get that far in numbers of dates? Most dates that don’t work out, stop before too many dates occurred. So you only incurred the lower costs of the first or first few dates.
4. You wrote that even other than lounges you found, effectively, cost-free dating venues. You can re-use those same cost-free, or almost cost free, venues every-time you reach a third or fourth and higher number of dates with each different girl. Just because you went somewhere already with a different girl doesn’t preclude you from going there with another girl. After all, your very worthwhile goal is to reduce costs.
5. Many of the venues you listed, especially the higher cost ones, are completely inappropriate for a Yid to be dating at. And they should, and easily can, be avoided. Movies — really? Goyishe professional sports arenas? C’mon. Even eating out dinners you can find much lower costs eateries than you listed. No one needs to show off what a fancy shtaty guy he is by going to La Mizerei (or whatever crazy names these restaurants use.)
6. There’s a lot be said about the very Yeshivish and Chasidish dating systems. Virtually all of your diatribe would be entirely inapplicable in those systems. I assure you that our Zeidas and Bubbes in the Alte Heim did not date in fancy restaurants — if they went anywhere outside of their homes altogether when meeting prospective futures Kallahs. And they found very good shidduchim.
To answer your question Kiddushin 2b:
שדרכו של איש לחזר על אשה ואין דרכה של אשה לחזר על אישAs to how to save money, you indicate some dates that didnt cost anything, od more of those. Certainly over the next few weeks while the weather is still warm there are plenty free nice parks, Hi line, brooklyn bridge etc.
Lounge as yo uindicate isnt neccesariy expensive you did it for 9.52 you can bring along a gameDating isnt free, and certainly can be expensive. Best of luck as you continue your search
Considering the state of current affairs, guys don’t really have a right to complain. The girls have much more of tayna on Enough is Enough!
“Enough is Enough! how come it is so hard for me to get a date (ie, why are guys so shallow?!)
“Enough is Enough! why do my parents have to pay for the majority of the wedding?!”
“Enough is Enough! why do I (and my parents) need to support my husband?!”
I think you can splurge on a meal every now and then considering how the system is weighed heavily in your favorI too was a working boy when I got married. Although dating expenses have gone up i find some of your choices to be outlandish:
Hotel Lounge: $9.52 – reasonable
Cafe: $42.08 – depends what you order
Arcades/Games: $55.00 (is this one date or a series of dates?)Nice Restaurant: $126.80
Decent Restaurant: $96.43I guess my definition of “nice” and “decent” are certainly not the same as yours. I know of nice restaurants that are a fraction of what you stated were your costs.
Build a Bear/Dessert: $109.17 (Never been to build a bear so I am not sure what part of the cost was just the dessert).
Dinner/Movie: $105.96 (again you can probably choose a less expensive restaurant)
Pottery Painting: $51.17
Baseball Game/Parking: $194.50 (Boxed seats?)
Cafe: $59.63
Hotel Lounge: $22.42
Dinner: $29.33 (Bad experience. You get what you pay for.) <I’ll agree with this one>
Men have the mitvah to get married, so men pay the fees.
first to all those preachers condemning the choice of venue – get real
to bachur – 1st of all any amount you’re spending now is heck of a lot cheaper than divorce and cheaper than kids. 2, go dutch or open your mind to more options (central park and starbucks). 3, whatever you do don’t let on that it hurts to spend money because for most girls that’s a big red flag.
all in all though I sympathize with your plight and hope the right one comes your way real soon. Here’s idea, let the air out of your tire and as you drive off and “discover” the flat you can kill time changing the tire – you’ll look like a hero and can catch restaurant next time. tell the guy that lent you the car you changed his tire for freeA simple solution to this is for shuls to provide dating facilities. A place to meet, volunteer chaperones, cheap prepackaged meals (e.g. $5/person), a bookcase with board games.
RY23, how does that explain the Yiddishe minhag that the Kallah’s family gives the Choson a dowry?
Agree with all of the above and…
I’m lost.
Where is this money coming from? You are working? This is where budgeting helps. We have no idea what your income stream is and how this stacks up against your other expenses.
The last time I paid $126 for a meal was when my wife and I went out for our 25th wedding anniversary. I am from OOT, but R/T bus fare was $60, used GETT promo codes to essentially get chauffered around Manhattan for free, found “The Tour” bus tickets on 1/2 price special, ditto for an escape room, then bought tickets from reliable online broker for “Shear Madness” also for close to 1/2 off and picked up dinner to go with a Groupon. It took time and research and a lot of Googling but for about $150/person we had a very nice day trip to the city.
With a little planning and research BEFORE going out, you should not be spending anything close to the astronomical sums you mentioned.
Because the girl has to pay:
1. To get her hair done
2. for makeup
3. to get her nails done
4. clothes, shoes, stockings (I know boys need clothes and shoes too, but it’s probably less important, and they can get away with wearing the same outfit on every date).
5. jewelry
6. possibly a taxi to get all those things done if she’s running late and doesn’t drive.
7. for the chasuna
8. possibly supporting the guy in Kollel once she’s married.As the father of children who are all married and not so old that I don’t remember my dating experiences.
The man pays for the dates, the woman’s family pays for the chasunah. Dating is far cheaper.Your average date cost is less than the charge for one guest at the chasunah.
Lilmod Ulelamaid: Thank YOU!!! 🙂
WOMEN pay for more than you can imagine, behind the scenes. Do you know how much money I’ve spent on extra makeup, outfits, and gasoline just to show up to a date? And I’m a very thrifty spender. Seriously, most of my clothes are second-hand, and I have to sacrifice just to look pretty.
By the way, it’s the husband’s job to provide for his wife, according to halacha. When every date is with the intention that your date may be your future wife, why would you not want to establish the relationship on the right footing?
That said, I feel for you. It’s not easy to struggle with parnassah. Just please, keep in mind that women are investing in you before you show up for your date.
Thank you
If you can’t afford under $1000 for almost two months of dating, how are you planning to pay rent when you get married?
As far as why the man pays, I was going to say what ubiquitin said.
Joseph, the dowry is traditionally supposed to help the poor husband support a wife while learning for the first couple of years.
I believe men also tend to wear nice clothes on dates, so that leaves you with the makeup, women. And you don’t have to buy expensive makeup. You can also buy cheap makeup (which is also expensive).
To the women kvetching they spend more than men due to their hairdos, makeup, nails, clothes and jewelry: all that put together doesn’t come close to what the guy spent buying his car and watch.
If you’re objective is to change the system foggedaboutit.
If you’re objective is to kvetch you found the right place.
If you’re objective is to find advice on how you can have cheaper dates then you definitely have a great crowd.
If you’re objective is to get advice on what are considered appropriate venues for dating, then I call troll!Why does going on a date require a hairdo, makeup, manicure and special jewelry?
Joseph: Women also buy their cars, and their watches.
Funnybone, the system has changed. Also, you mean “your”, not “you’re”.
Joseph, the car doesn’t count, because using his car for the date doesn’t get her a rebate on her own car payments. Also, the car isn’t part of it. Some people don’t even have cars. And some jewelry costs more than some cars. Also, a woman going on a date has to look nice but dress extra with extra tznius. So she wears a nice hairdo, makeup, and nails, and usually dresses in black or navy blue. Black or navy clothes she already has, most likely, but a decent black or navy blue lipstick ranges from $10-20, and that’s for the cheap ones, not the luxury brands. And the man’s watch is just some silly status symbol for him. It doesn’t do anything but tell time. Almost everything has a built in clock these days. Wristwatches add nothing to the dating experience.I think the guys with the fancy cars and watches tend to end up marrying the gold diggers with too much makeup, manicures and bedeckled in jewelry.
No, the girls with the fancy cars marry the boys with the jewelry. (Because girls are not supposed to drive, get it?)
Considering that the girl is left supporting her husband for a number of years post marriage, it’s only fair he picks up the tab beforehand.
Joseph, calling women who wear makeup “gold diggers” doesn’t make sense. Poor men have the same taste as rich men.
This bachur is working. He didn’t say he is looking for someone to support him in kollel.
Also just because girls have hard things too has to relevance to that fact that this bachur is having a hard time with paying for dates. Both people could have problems. There have been a lot of suggestions on how to reduce costs. If s girll asks maybe she will get some tips too.
Btw at least from people I’ve spoke too the guy pays for several things like the band, photographer, flowers etc which ends up around 1/3 of the cost.
I hear that by the Chasidim the Choson and Kallah’s families split the cost of the wedding 50/50. (This might entice some girls to marry a Chosid.)
1. Until relatively recently, frum Jews didn’t date. Restaurants (kosher or otherwise) are a 19th century invention. “Courting” (as it was called in the English language) traditionally was done at home, with watchful parents present. Going to restaurants or other public places is not a custom based on halacha.
2. In western cultures, the man is demonstrating his ability to support the girl in the style to which she is accustomed. Traditionally the boy would probably find a way to show off his Torah learning in front of her family (which would demonstrate ability to earn a living, traditionally). If she is living at home (as was the case traditionally) she would want to demonstrate her skills.
3. If a man is looking for a “modern” girl who believes in “equality”, he expects her to offer to pay for things and would drop her if she doesn’t.
Frum_bachur: What would your preferred solution be? That he and she swap off paying for the date, with each date? He pays first date, she pays second, he third, etc.
Joseph – It’s not the JAPs who spend so much on dates. They spend that amount all the time. It’s the poor girls who normally don’t have money for clothes and makeup etc. and suddenly have to buy these things for a date.
A guy doesn’t need a car to date – I’ve gone out with guys who didn’t have a car. And no one needs a watch – use your cell phone.
@Joseph
I don’t think splitting the cost of a wedding 50/50 would entice a girl to marry a chasid, it might entice her parents to suggest it. Most frum girls don’t pay for their own chasunahLilmod, did I get the prices right?
RY – the only thing I see a price for is the lipstick – did I miss something?
I don’t wear black lipstick, so I wouldn’t know. And I can’t remember how much my lipstick cost.
I actually stopped wearing lipstick this week in order to avoid Chillul Shabbos on Yom Kippur, since I have heard that lipstick causes chapped lips, and chapped lips causes Chillul Shabbos. I’m considering stopping to wear lipstick altogether besides for dates, so that would create another date expense, since I’ll have to buy it special for dates.
RY: “I believe men also tend to wear nice clothes on dates, so that leaves you with the makeup, women. And you don’t have to buy expensive makeup. You can also buy cheap makeup (which is also expensive).”
First of all, the guys can wear the same clothes on each date, since there is no difference between one white shirt and another. Second of all, they can wear the same clothes on the date that they wear every day of the week for the same reason. On the other hand, the clothing that I wear every day of the week is not date-suitable.
Second of all, she is still left with the hair and the nails and the stockings.
“Why does going on a date require a hairdo, makeup, manicure and special jewelry?”
Some people don’t know how to cut their own nails. And some people don’t know how to do their own hair. And some people can’t afford to buy makeup or jewelry, so they only do so before a date.
dating does cost but you can go on many less expensive dates & still have a nice time. you can go to plaxes like star bucks or Barnes & nobles or go down town & walk around the buildings, go to parks & many other reasonable things to do to have an enjoyable & affordable date.
After the first date, once the two have already met in person, some subsequent dates can be by phone or Skype.
Frum_Bachur,
I’m sure that you ate meals at those restaurants and watched the movie and ballgame yourself, so around half of those costs you listed were for your own entertainment.
Nobody is stopping you from asking the young woman to help defray the costs of the dates. If you choose to do that, however, it might be a good idea to let her know in advance so that she can prepare. Also, allow her to choose some of the venues, because you don’t want her to feel pressured to pay above her means. That said, I don’t think it’s a good idea, becuase it may lessen your chances of making a shidduch, which is the whole point of dating in the first place. You did, after all, write, “you get what you pay for” 🙂
Another option is to choose less expensive venues.
RY – My latest idea is to start with a phone call or two before deciding if it’s kidai to meet. Amongst other benefits, no one has to pay. Skype is a bad idea, because then the girl still has to spend the money, time, and energy to look nice.
Granted, it’s only when you’re older that you can get away with this. When you’re younger, you can’t get away with it, and it’s probably a bad idea anyhow, because you may get the wrong impression of the person if you don’t meet him in person.
I think the only positive outcome of this conversation would be if the girls would lower their expectations as to how much the guys spend on the date. i.e. If all he did on a fourth date is go for a walk in the park and buy drinks or ice cream don’t come back and say “I don’t know what is wrong with this guy. He is such a cheapskate. When will he spend money on me?”
Because women are stuck with everything else.
Lilmod
I’m guessing you run in more MO circles
You may not be aware but in yeshivish circles these days, there aren’t pre-date phone calls
arrangements are handled by shadchanim/parentsIsn’t all this makeup, clothes etc. really a females choice because they feel that it is the only way to date? It’s not technically a necessary cost it’s a cost they choose, in order to give themselves an advantage (we can argue whether it’s false advertising in another thread)
and OP
same question
the fancy meal is a choice made by you to give yourself an advantage. You can, of course, to do 15 straight lounge datesCTRebbe
If we are lowering the expectations of women on voluntary costs that make their dates seem more interesting, wealthy etc
Don’t, in the name of equality, we need to lower male expectations on voluntary costs that make their dates seem more pretty ?Clothes are not false advertising. In fact, most civilized societies consider clothing necessary for any decent human being.
Mentsch – no, I don’t. It has to do with age. When I was younger, there were no phone calls, but once you reach a certain age, that’s how it works in both MO and Yeshivish circles. I was actually taken by surprise by it and didn’t like it until I got even older and found out that I have now reached the stage that I am allowed to choose to have a phone call instead of a date and not in addition to a date.
Older-single dating is very different than younger-single dating, and the rules keep changing the older you get.
Mentsch: Isn’t all this makeup, clothes etc. really a females choice because they feel that it is the only way to date? It’s not technically a necessary cost it’s a cost they choose, in order to give themselves an advantage
It’s not a choice – it’s what they are told they have to do. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about anything extreme. But it does cost money to look decent, and it is necessary for dating. A guy doesn’t have to be superficial in order to want to marry a girl who’s attractive. If he only wants Miss America, that’s a problem, or if he thinks that looks are the most important or only important thing, that’s a problem. But that’s not what I’m talking about.
Mentsch-Women do not need to spend a dime on their date. I don’t know of a single male that would notice if a woman got a professional manicure. Women only do that for themsleves. As far as I know, most women know how to do their own hair. There need not be anything called “date clothing”- just take a nice outfit from your existent wardrobe. You are also able to wear the same outfit for every first date-nobody will know the difference. Jewelry is usually borrowed from a friend or relative. One can argue that women spend more time preparing for a date but cost is not one of them.
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