Erev yom kippur question

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  • #599838

    jgrunstein
    Member

    Weird one-

    Question about validity of a neder. If I made a neder on erev yom kippur before a meal saying “I am making a neder not to eat anything today” but in my mind I did not have kavanah to do so , is it valid and does that mean I have to fast until after yom kippur?

    #816022

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    Pardon my ignorance, but why would someone say something that one has no intention of being valid?

    #816023

    Sam2
    Participant

    I someone takes a Neder not to eat anything on Erev Yom Kippur then he was Over Bal T’acher immediately and the Neder was not Chal. If someone had already eaten something that day then they cannot eat until after the fast unless they do Hataras Nedarim.

    #816024

    jgrunstein
    Member

    As a joke

    #816025

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I hope you didn’t really do that.

    If you make a neder, even as a joke, it is a neder.

    Now, you said you are making a neder not to eat. That would actually be a shevua, since you made an ???? ????. So that may be a way out- I haven’t learned nedarim in a while.

    If you really did this; Call a posek quick.

    #816026

    bezalel
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba

    What happened was there was a guy in his shul that had mistakenly brought a karbon todah and offered some of it to him.

    #816027

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    There is no such thing as a neder not to eat. As Popa succinctly pointed out, in general, a neder is only an issur on a ????, i.e. had you said for example, “this bread is forbidden to me today,” that would be a neder.

    Whether or not the statement has any validity in any case, is the subject of discussion.

    The Ran (Nedarim 2b) brings brings a Yerushalmi that has a disagreement about this question; ?’ ???? and ?’ ???? say it’s nothing, while ?’ ???? argues. The Ran says it is mashma that the halacha follows the majority – that it is nothing.

    The Ran’s own opinion is also that it is nothing, and he cites Rabbeinu Chananel, the Ri Migash, and the Rashba who accord with this view.

    However he mentions that the Ramban disagrees and holds that it is something. The Ran explains that the Ramban means to say that it is valid as a shevua, and the statement used works as a yad.

    L’ma’aseh, the Shulchan Aruch (YD 206:5) brings both shitos but concludes that even according to the Ran you need ???? anyway: ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????.

    There is one more possible way out that I can think of according to the Ramban, and that is that on Erev Yom Kippur there is a mitzva to eat, and if what you said indeed counts as a shevua, well, the Mishna (bottom 16a) tells us that a shevua doesn’t work against a mitzva (though you would get malkos for shevuas shav though…). However this is not so simple, because the Ran (8a) is of the opinion that something learned from a drasha is not included in this, and a shevua would work against it. I do not know how we pasken in this shailah.

    I know the question is not nogeia anymore; this was just stam hocking. In the event that a real shaila should occur just go to a rav he should have no problem being mattir your neder/shevua.

    #816028

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    IT IS NOT A VOW!

    The Shulchan Aruch rules that since it is a Mitzvah to eat on Erev Yom Kippur, if you make a vow not to eat then it does not take effect because you are effectively attempting to nullify an existing commandment. Te vow never takes effect.

    #816029

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    So you’re tayning the halacha is not like the Ran. Where is this Mechaber?

    #816030

    Chacham
    Participant

    it is nice to get a chazara bein hazmanim of what i learned during the zman (nedarim first perek)

    #816031

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Correction:

    Mechaber in Orach Chaim 570-3 says if one vows not to eat on Shabbos or Yom Tov, it does not take effect because we have a Torah obligation to eat.In the times of Chazal he would get malkos for an unnecessary vow. If he vowed not to eat on Chanukah or Purim it takes effect because the eating then is only D’Rabanan. The mechaber continues that the same applies to Rosh Chodesh and Erev Yom Kippur. But he syas that the Rambam argues and says that they are dioraysa like Shabbos and Yom Tov so the vow would not take effect.

    Sorry, I should have checked the details before posting.

    #816032

    hello99
    Member

    without kavana the neder/shavua is invalid, as ??? ??? ????? ?????

    #816033

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Right. A Neder and a Shevua (unless it is Al Daas Acheirim) does not happen if you don’t mean it.

    Sam2,

    Actually the Beis Yosef was not sure if fasting Erev Yom Kippur might be a Mitzva, too. The Lashon of the Gemara is that eating Erev Yom Kippur is as if you fasted both days. That might mean that fasting is even better.

    However, the Tur and Rashi explain that the Gemara means that it is as if there is a Mitzva to fast and you fasted.

    #816034

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    without kavana the neder/shavua is invalid, as ??? ??? ????? ?????

    In all cases? Do we never say that ????? ???? ???? ??????

    nedarim has been a while for me, but I’m recalling the 4 cases which don’t need hatara (nidrei zeruzin, etc.), and those were all cases where it is apparent to other people that you don’t mean it, if they know what is going on. Aren’t they?

    see eg. the first ?? on 21a

    #816035

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99 and HaLeiVi-

    What are you talking about?? The Gemara only says that in cases where the wording is questionable, not where you stam didn’t have kavanah. And Popa has a good raya to that.

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