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Ok, whomever will answer this question (just pashut pshat) will earn their very own dedicated troll thread.
The last ?????? on 19b asks: Does a chitas hakanim work as a diumad.
The gemara attempts to prove from a braisah which talks about 3 things: an ilan, a gader, and a chitzas hakanim. Presumably the chitzas hakanim being spoken of is the same as we are trying to talk about.
The gemara defends that perhaps the chitzas hakanim of the braisah is where it is a gudrisa–all of them are growing out of a common stump.
The offense challenge the defense, that if so, it would be the same case as ilan!
The defenders defend that either way, two of the cases of the braisah must be the same, since if you read it like the offense that chitzas hakanim is sticks less than 3 tefachim apart, then it will be the same case as gader! So either there are two sorts of gaders or two sorts of ilanos.
So the defenders reading of the braisah then is there are 3 cases: ilan, gader, and chitzas hakanim. Ilan is a tree. Chitzas hakanim is a gudrisah. And gader is….?
I don’t get it. Gader is sticks less than 3 tefachim apart. I know it is, because the defenders insist that if chitzas hakanim is that, then it will be the same case as gader. So how is there not a proof from the braisah?
Hold your horses… I’m almost done Brachos…
(and I didn’t say I was a Yode’a Kol Davar)
If you don’t know full Pshat, you should give a Shiur on it. (I learnt this rule from one of my Rabbeim.)
And gader is…. a different type of fence, e.g. completely attached, not needing lavud.
PBA, great question. The daf made sense top me in shiur, and I wish I could remember what the maggid shiur said. Have you tried http://dafyomi.co.il/ they have a daf point-by-point summary, among other things. I would have investigated myself, but my phone can’t access that site (problem with frames).
I will b”n listen to a recorded shiur to find out the answer to your question.
Or, better yet, ????? ??? ????.
At that point in the gemara, trei gavni wasn’t an option, but once the gemara accepted trei gavni, that would be the trei gavni.
IOW, the gemara didn’t say (in the hava amina) that it was the same case; the gemara said it was too similar to be a different category.
Uh oh…
It could be the shas yidden know better than to go online on chol hamoed.
And you deserve it; it was really your own pshat, you just mistakenly thought it was wrong.
Apy, or ever.
Poppa – who put you back on as BAR abba?
Do you like your troll thread?
My wife doesn’t. 😉 Thanks, though.
Also, don’t put yourself down; you are saying good pshat.
Don’t worry, I wasn’t. It just seemed that you also knew pshat, but just had a kasha on it.
There are two Leshonos. In the first Lashon, we took for granted that the thickness of the tree stump doesn’t make a difference and the question is if Lavud helps. In the second Lashon the situation is reversed, we take for granted that Lavud is no issue but we are unsure about if the base is not thick enough.
After trying to learn that Kanim must mean Pachos Meshalosh, since Gudrisa would be like an Ilan — as long as we hold that there is no difference between them — the Shoal explains that there is a difference between a tree, whose stump is thick enough to be a Dyumad, and Gudrisa Dikanim, where only the top is wide enough. This difference is the basis of the question in the second Lashon.
The Shoal is responding, just like you don’t think Kanim and Geder are the same, since you differenciate between Lavud and Lavudless, I too differenciate between an Ilan and Gudrisa Dikani.
The second Lashon follows the same logic path with opposite assumptions.
Popa- “If you’re almost done brachos, you ain’t on the daf…
I just started 2 and a half weeks ago with eruvin”
They say that. To just join the daf, and not wait until the next cycle. Thats why I’m not gonna wait until next cycle to join. When they’re in middle of Nidda, I’m gonna jump right in.
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