Especially good at clarifying "How do we know Hashem exists?" to a young adult

TBT: (Often it’s not faith they’re strugling with as much as pain and hurt)

Popa agrees with TBT.

TBT: (Often it’s not faith they’re strugling with as much as pain and hurt)

Popa agrees with TBT.

Me too. I believe it’s a form of anxiety that the mind resorts to in order to cover up pain and hurt. Try the CD program Attacking Anxiety and Depression.

Could be Hashem wants us to make sure we CAN answer questions like this, to sharpen our own emunah, so He provides inquisitive and bright kids (or adults) who need deep answers. I would take his questions seriously and avoid the name-calling. To find someone who can satisfy his question, that will be difficult. For all of our patting ourselves on the back for our kiruv efforts, we don’t seem to be so good at helping people who want proof.

Lawrence Kelemen is a terrific speaker and has a terrific book entitled Permission to Believe dealing with this question and a followup about Torah M’Sinai called Permission to Receive. His shiurim are online as well.

rabbi mechanic

EzratHashem:

For all of our patting ourselves on the back for our kiruv efforts, we don’t seem to be so good at helping people who want proof.

You’re kindly invited to head on over to the cheap-shot thread. We’ll be waitin

If s/he wants to know the TRUTH s/he’ll get there. Otherwise, there’s no point in arguing. S/he’ll “prove” it’s wrong over and over again. On the contrary, if s/he’s willing to listen, then try Rabbi Pinchus Jung from Monsey. He’s really great with these kids, and has great answers. (You don’t have to introduce yourself)

I also want to add to Popa’s comment that it really is Anxiety. S/he’s probably trying to look for something to be anxious about (subconciously of course). You can try the Attacking Anxiety And Depression as msseeker mentioned. Also, Rabbi Sapierman’s CDs are great. Hatzlacha in whatever in you do!

And if there were a way to prove Hashem’s existence, it wouldnt be a nisayon.

But in reality it is, and that also accounts for so many mitzvot surrounding the subject. However, just because one cannot prove that Hashem exists does not mean that there is not a tremendous amount of evidence that He does.

In a kuzari class I attended in Yeshiva, the Rebbe explained that it is a “modern” philosophical concept that everything must be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt (Renee De’Carte “I think therefore I am”) and that lehavdil even in the American Judicial System our goal is only “Beyond a reasonable doubt” and if I could underline reasonable I would… and that is what begins the process of opening one’s mind to Hashem. Eventually you hope they reach the point once they become open minded that they no longer need proof because they’ve experienced it already.

I would start going through the evidence but like I said, there are books out there that say it much more eloquently than I am capable of.

Rabbi Yerachmiel Milstein and Rabbi Mordechai Becher are both very good. Good luck!

I also agree with TBT and popa and msseeker and chalilavchas and observanteen.

But some people are just more skeptical by nature and need more reassurance.

chalilavchas, this is not blaming. If someone sincerely believes he is a god and we diagnose him with schizophrenia, we don’t “blame” him; we’re saying that it’s NOT avodah zorah or kefirah but a mental illness. (If they knew what we know now in Shabsai tzvi’s times, they’d hospitalize him and medicate him. He clearly had Manic Depressive or schizo.) I’m saying your relative’s problem is not a weak emunah; it’s Anxiety, a mild, treatable emotional disorder. How is this blaming? It’s not his fault he has anxiety; it will be his fault if instead of taking care of his anxiety he ch”v uses it as an excuse to go OTD. Shabsai tzvi’s sin was not his hallucinations; it was his gaavah, his audacity to change the torah, his lack of humility when all gedolim said he was wrong. If your guy thinks he’s smarter than rambam, rashi, r’ Yonoson Eibeshutz, the Vilna Gaon and innumerous other incredibly smart people, he has a lack of midos. He should be able to realize that if he thinks differently than so many of those who are older and smarter than him, it’s probably (at least possibly) his problem and he has to look for a solution, or cure. In my experience, chances are his problem is anxiety.

SJSinNYC

Cognitive Dissidence is human nature, and so is being lazy. We all know certain things are aveirot yet we do them anyway. Our thoughts and actions are also influenced by our bodies’ needs. It’s not farfetched to say that someone will either choose not to believe in Hashem because of a off the wall possibility that every piece of evidence you throw at them is mistaken, or still ignore that reality and carry on as they please.

I have my emunah and bitachon B”H but I don’t pretend there is rock solid “proof” for it (There is obviously- at least to me- much evidence). Otherwise it wouldn’t be emunah and bitachon… and there wouldn’t be so many followers of other religions and athiesm. It wouldn’t be a test and we wouldn’t get schar.

Chalilavchas is right; there are many brilliant non religious Jews and non-jews. But we have bechirah chofshi and Hashem gave the opportunity for both to exist.

Mussar sfarim always discuss how one must strive to make one’s emunah in Hashem and his presence LIKE a yediah, like you KNOW that you see your friend in front of you. This wouldn’t be such an axiomatic endeavor if it was really so simple to achieve.

This may be a scary reality but I firmly believe this is true.

To all those pointing to Discover, R’ Mechanic, R’ Kellerman, and other such figures and/or organizations: These “proofs” may satisfy some, but really bright critical thinkers can easily take apart these supposed “proofs” as to God’s existence and the divinity and truth of the Torah very easily.

For such bright thinkers there usually is no proof. There is belief and a decision that a Torah observant lifestyle makes the most sense and is the most productive and fulfilling form of life. Good intellectual taamei hamitzvos sefarim may help with that. Try R. Hirsch’s Horeb. Also try some of R. Solevetchick’s works, like Halachic Man. A bright person can argue with these as well, but with bright people, the only option is to get them thinking. The choice in the end is theirs – as it should be.

In my experience, people don’t make drastic changes in their lives unless they’re either super special, or a little messed up. You’re entitled to think that “those who choose to leave Orthodox Judaism, or dont actively practice it” are super special, but IMHO they’re a bit messed up.

I read an autobiography of a woman who suffered from schizophrenia. But she had good middos. And she came to the conclusion that if everyone thinks that the voices in her head are illusionary, they’re probably right. She is currently a psychiatrist who treats Schizophrenics by telling them her story.

This guy seemingly has a problem with Emuna. He can either believe that all of Klal Yisroel since Moshe Rabbeinu are ignorant fools and he’s wiser than all of us, or he can realize that so many super brilliant people are probably, or at least possibly, right. It all depends on his middos such as Emes and Anovoh.

??? ????, if he wants to go OTD and he’s looking for an excuse, he’ll probably do that in spite of your arguments and reasoning. If however, he wants to do what’s right, but he’s confused, and he has the humility to realize that he’s not smarter than all of klal yisroel, he’ll inevitably come to the conclusion that he’s the one who has the problem and he’ll search for the solution.

Hatzlacha Rabba.

What I find a little more disturbing is the attitude of if they don’t want to believe, they’ll find ways to refute your proof. If you can’t give them a good solid proof (even if its not absolutely fool proof), why would they believe? Do you think Judaism encourages mindlessness?

It is too bad that Yiddishkeit doesn’t have a form of Rumspringa, or the “Yisro” method. It would probably allow more of these “going off” to see and understand why one should be an active Yid.

I have my emunah and bitachon B”H but I don’t pretend there is rock solid “proof” for it (There is obviously- at least to me- much evidence). Otherwise it wouldn’t be emunah and bitachon… and there wouldn’t be so many followers of other religions and athiesm. It wouldn’t be a test and we wouldn’t get schar.

Preponderance of the evidence, anyone 🙂

the.nurse:

When you had questions what did you do? Did you throw off observance and not look for answers, or you asked your questions? If the response is asking questions, great. If the response is joining some frie groups, then there’s a deeper problem to be cognizant about as well.

Daas Yochid,

What I disagreed with was the idea that if one is asking questions, then it must mean they are suffering or in pain. If that’s not what the poster meant, then my apologies. What I am saying is that it IS ok to ask questions about your faith instead of following blindly, just like you question anything else in your life.

TBT: I asked questions & got answers. But I think it’s the way other people look at and respond to that person asking the questions that is the problem sometimes, which may end up aiding that person in to turning to the wrong things.

TBT: Well said.

Chalila: Of course we have to answer those who have questions. I had questions too (I still have questions, only now I don’t need any answers). But there’s a difference between asking because you want to understand what you believe and to ask to “prove” that it’s nonsense.

“Arent there people who ask to “prove” that it’s nonsense” and somewhere along the way, they start believing and observing”

Yes. But there’s still a difference.

“Why be judgemental? Most of us are not prophets.”

Huh? I’m not exactly sure how this is related to what I said.

RSRH: