Every Yids a safek mamzer

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  • #2090717

    Normally we rely on rov to tell us that our father is our father, rebbi akiva eigar holds you believe he’s your father for everything, but rav elchanan holds that we say palginan so we only can believe it based on halacha (meaning in terms of not hitting your father for example) but in terms of everything else, there’s no basis to say your father is really your father, therefore every yid is a safek mamzer from their kepela to their feesila

    #2090962
    ymribiat
    Participant

    Unquestionably you are believed about yourself.

    #2090975
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Safek mamzer is mutar either way

    #2090994
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Your mother has a חזקת כשרות because if that wasn’t the case then the husband can always claim he doesn’t owe the kesuba

    #2091001
    besalel
    Participant

    Menachem: I appreciate your brief demonstration on why european-style yeshiva learning misses the mark. don’t lose your head.

    #2091049
    ujm
    Participant

    Avira: I think a real sofek mamzer is assur to both a kosher yid, since he might be a mamzer, and to an actual mamzer, since he might be kosher. So, in a sense, a sofek mamzer is worse off than a known mamzer.

    #2091045
    GotAGoodPoint
    Participant

    menachem – there is something wrong about your nusach, ‘based on halocha’. I think you mean that for Halachic purposes, or somethnig like that?
    Either way, we rely on it even for when we don’t usually rely on rov, like אין הולכין בבמון אחר הרוב and also we can kill based on this, otherwise if you were mezane with your father’s ex wife or his sister, you could would still be killed. We
    I think the achronim say that once it is paskened for other issues, we then use it for everything.
    either way, the whole issue is only really halachic. Statistically the probabilty that you are a mamzer is almost 0, You rely on that sort of probabilty to fly airplanes without worrying you are going to die. so the whole shaila is only in Halacha, and in Halacha anyway we rely on the Rov, so really it’s quite theoretical.

    For practical purposes you can check the DNA, nowadays many poskim trust DNA testing to a large extent. Ask your local OR. But even if you have proof that your father is indeed your father, you still can allow yourself the pleasure of speculating that you are a mamzer – maybe your grandmother was mezaneh, or one of your great great grandmothers….

    coffee (and cheescake) addict: even though Menachem’s mother has a chezkas Kashrus, and she no doubt deserves her kesuba, it still does not mean that Menachem is not a Mamzer – maybe she was raped b’oines, in which case she would still qualify for kesuba but Menachem would be a mamzer if he was conceived from the rapist.

    #2091086
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “maybe she was raped b’oines, in which case she would still qualify for kesuba but Menachem would be a mamzer if he was conceived from the rapist.“

    I guess you gotagoodpoint there

    #2091091
    CHOOSID
    Participant

    Every yids a big Choosid

    #2091099
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    According to you who can join the kehal Hashem?

    #2091104
    ujm
    Participant

    GotAGoodPoint: If Halachicly there’s no basis to declare a child a mamzer, but a DNA test says that the child was fathered by the next door neighbor and not the husband, then Halachicly the child is still kosher.

    #2091118
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm – Kidushin 73, ודאי ממזר הוא דלא יבוא, הא ספק –
    יבוא

    #2091121

    > sofek mamzer is worse off than a known mamzer.

    if everyone is sofek mamzer, then nobody can marry nobody, except those who are mamzerim vadai. In such, invesrted, world, hasan and kalla would need to bring kosher witnesses to certify that their parents were brother and sister, or bring a ketuba with other than a father’s name, and beis din need to investigate date of kesuba being before the birth. I am sure, there will be fakers, who will not reveal that the husband gave a get, trying to fool this opposite beis din.

    #2091126
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ממזר ודאי אמר רחמנא ולא ספק ממזר, see the Shev Shematesa 1 for a detail discussion.

    #2091133

    > DNA test says that the child was fathered by the next door neighbor

    Yevamos discuss a case of someon who, apparently, can not have children due to a trauma, but then does – does this disprove that he can’t? response – no, suspect the mother …

    #2091143
    Loshenhora
    Participant

    Safek d’Orisa Le’Chumra

    #2091167
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Lashenhora, we don’t say safek deoraysoh lechumra all over – we have a drashah by mamzer that safek mamzer is mutar. Safek arlah bechhtz laaeretz is another example.

    #2091219
    akuperma
    Participant

    Given that being a mamzer is hereditary, so for most Yidden, that means assuming nothing that would make you a mamzer for well over 100 generations. We therefore have numerous presumptions that if someone seems kosher, and we have reason to believe it is kosher, it is kosher, so we can ignore the possibility that a Jewish ancestor of our’s over the last few thousands “cheated” secretly.

    #2091237

    @gotagoodpoint that’s what r akiva eigar and the stipler hold, but r elchanan holds we still say palginan meaning we only believe based on respecting the father

    #2091245
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “if everyone is sofek mamzer, then nobody can marry nobody,“

    A גר can marry everyone except a כהן

    Maybe we should all find ways to become גרים and all will be fine

    #2091255
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    big sugya.
    look at yerushalmi yevamos 48, end of perek 8:3.

    #2091270
    maskildoresh
    Participant

    The level of absolute Am Haaratzus on this post is astounding. Go into Beis Medrash and learn.

    Please keep completely uninformed , off the cuff harbrained ideas for all other topics, and not for actual learning, especial when it comes to the basic Yesodos of Yichis of Klal Yisroel.

    Now go ahead and yell at me and call me names. I’ve used up my time in the bathroom and on YWN for the day.

    #2091340
    zaidy78
    Participant

    I guess you are not planning on “yarshen”ing your father’s estate. Because you’re only MAYBE his son.

    Did YOU have this conversation with YOUR father? With your wife’s son?

    #2091374
    ujm
    Participant

    Do we force a Kohen to divorce his wife today if she was raped?

    #2091364
    Zushy
    Participant

    the kehillas yaakov in his last siman on kiddushin discusses this situation

    if only one of a person’s numerous anccestors were mazane they are mazerim

    If there was one mamzer about a millenium ago then we all mamzeirim

    Nonetheless we are not choishesh

    and the last mishna in eidiyois says that eliyohu hanovi will not be meracheik the unknown

    R’ Menashe Klein also dealt extensively with this topic and basically says that Hashme will never allow it to happen

    #2091362
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @maskildoresh
    your internet works in the bathroom? lucky you!

    #2091594
    ujm
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 2:5): If a family of Cohanim has a definite challel amongst them then every woman of that family is prohibited until she is checked and if she marries she must be divorced. The same applies if there is a family that a sofek mamer or definite mamzer.

    Rema: However all of this applies only if it is definitely known to be true. However a family that has a person who is invalid for marriage – but it is not public knowledge- since he has been successfully mixed in then let him remained so. Someone who knows about this invalid person – is not allowed to reveal the information but the family members are to be left with their presumption of validity (chezkas kashrus). That is because all such families which have an unknown invalid person amongst them will be declared as fully kosher in the Messianic Era. Nevertheless is appropriate to reveal this information to those who can keep a secret (This is implied by the Ran). However this ignoring of the information is only when the invalid member is successfully mixed in and concealed from public knowledge. But as long as he is not mixed in then we reveal the invalid members and publicly announce it so that unblemished people will avoid marriage with them. See Choshen Mishpat 25 as to who is believed to testify about a families pedigree.

    #2091595
    ujm
    Participant

    Edios (8:7): Rabbi Yehoshua said, I have received a tradition from Rabban Yochanon ben Zakkai who heard it from his rebbe and his rebbe heard it from his rebbe as a halacha l’Moshe m’Sinai (Tradition given from Sinai) that Eliyahu will not come to declare unclean or to pronounce clean, to put away or to bring near. But rather he will put away those brought near by force and to bring near that who have been put away by force. The family of Beis Zerephah was on the other side of the Jordan and Ben Tzion put it away by force. And there was already another family there and Ben Tziion brought it near by force. For such people Eliyahu will come to declare unclean or to pronounce clean, to put away or to bring near. Rabbi Yehuda disagreed and said Eliyahu will bring near but not put away. Rabbi Shimon said that will come to resolve disputes. The Sages disagreed and said that Eliyahu will neither come to put away nor to bring near but rather to make peace in the world. As is stated in Malachi (3), Behold I will send Eliyahu the Prophet to you… And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children their fathers.

    #2091596
    ujm
    Participant

    Chelkas Mechokek (2:5.9): One who knows that there is a mamzer is not allowed to reveal this information – But it is stated in Shulchan Aruch (EH. 2:3) that two people had testified that a family has a mamzer or challel. How can they do this since they are violating the halacha of not revealing this information? However saying they shouldn’t testify also presents a difficulty since we pasken in this sif that if there is a doubt whether there is a mamzer in a particular family that someone who marries a member of that family needs to get divorced – so why isn’t it a mitzva to reveal this information because today or tomorrow witnesses will come and testify that there is a mamzer in the family and consequently the children of this family will be considered sofek mamzerim? A possible answer is that concerning the Ran on which the leniency of the Rema is based, he could be talking about a case where it is not clear that a member of the family is actually a mamzer – but merely that there is a rumor. Perhaps it is only such a case where the Ran is saying that there is no need to reveal this information except to modest people [who won’t spread the information]. However when two witness know for certain that a mamzer assimilated into this family it is very difficult to claim that they should not testify since the children of this family – once the information becomes public that there is a mamzer who is mixed into this famly –will henceforth be sofek mamzerim.

    #2091628

    > make you a mamzer for well over 100 generations.

    Presumably, Hashem makes hidden mamzerim vulnerable to a quick death so it is rare to have 3-generation mamzerim (Yevamos ~ 78). I am not sure how the statement “did you hear about 3-generation mamzer” reflect on “hidden mamzerim” of who you, by definition, do not hear.

    #2091652
    Loshenhora
    Participant

    @aviradearah
    Thank you
    So kind
    Have a good Shabbos

    #2091961
    5TResident
    Participant

    I’m not a safek manzer because I look EXACTLY like my father. And he was an only child so there’s no chance of hanky panky with a sibling. Plus, I have photographic evidence to show that my nose is the same as every male ancestor in my father’s family since at least 1800.

    #2091971
    Avi K
    Participant

    רב יהודה חזייה לרב יצחק בריה דרב יהודה דגדל ולא נסיב א”ל מאי טעמא לא קא מנסיב ליה מר איתתא לבריה א”ל מי ידענא מהיכא אנסיב אמר ליה אטו אנן מי ידעינן מהיכא קאתינן דילמא מהנך דכתיב (איכה ה, יא) נשים בציון ענו בתולות בערי יהודה וכי תימא עובד כוכבים ועבד הבא על בת ישראל הולד כשר ודילמא מהנך דכתיב בהו (עמוס ו, ד) השוכבים על מטות שן וסרוחים על ערסותם … אמר ר’ אבהו אלו בני אדם שאוכלין ושותין זה עם זה ומדביקין מטותיהם זו בזו ומחליפין
    נשותיהם זה לזה ומסריחים ערסותם בשכבת זרע שאינה שלהם

    קידושין עא ע”ב

    #2092551
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @menachem, you maybe a sofek mamzer but you are a vaday shioteh

    #2092594
    Loshenhora
    Participant

    And there is me thinking this was
    a orthodox Jewish coffee room

    #2092597
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    it is. and BH in all orthodox meeting places you will find other types of Jews ready to learn and hoping to grow. care to do your part?

    #2092717

    @commonsaychel and your a vaday troll

    #2092737
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Torah specially is matir a safek as mentioned maybe because if like you, who may join the kehal Hashem?

    #2092740
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Menachem, according to you there is no problem as a safek is allowed to marry a safek.

    #2092854

    @rebeliezer a safek mamzer cant marry a safek mamzer because it could be you have a non mamzer marrying a mamzer, and you cant say sfek sfeyka because its bsheim echad

    #2092902
    ujm
    Participant

    Which is why I earlier says a safek mamzer cannot marry anyone. Unlike a mamzer, who can marry certain people.

    #2093029
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If the Torah is matir a safek doesn’t that eliminate the safek making it not a mamzer until we know for sure it is?

    #2093191
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The question is the old chakira whether rov is a berer by eliminating the safek or rov is a safek which the Torah is matir over here.

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