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There are basically three different streams seeking to dramatize via twisted nazi comparisons to humane Israel.
1. Radical racist Arab Islamist bigots seeking to diminish the unique dark page of human history. The Holocaust.
2. Twisted radical ‘liberals,’ seeking to dramatize and demeanor Jews, particularly Israel. This has been, lately picked up by a few on the radical right, including some America-last pretending to be a “patiot.”
3. Only as a slur: Some neturei karta types who, unknowingly, give munitions to the real enemy of Am Yisrael. It has been picked up by some Peleg demonstrators.
My wife was in shock when she heard two youngsters (looked like they were 7-8 years old) scream NAZIS!! at a passing police car driving down the street. They didn’t come to the conclusion in their own young brains but parrotted the indoctrination of their parents and community. I cannot fathom how even with the worst behavior of the police, people can compare them to Nazis. Sad.
The frum Yidden in Yerushalayim (and elsewhere in Eretz Yisroel) have been protesting against the Israeli government actions against them for many years by calling the government Nazis.
About five years ago in the major Chareidi protests against the State of Israel, that were attended by the Gedolei Yisroel on the dais of the protests, many Yerushalayim Yidden were dressed in orange concentration camp uniforms with a yellow star on it, to compare the Israeli government treatment of Chareidim to Nazi treatment of Jews.
Around the same time there was a story in the news about a toy store in Yerushalayim selling a toy Israeli police car with an evil looking bad-guy police.
a michalel shabbos is worse than a nazi
To the group
Such rhetoric is commonplace. Self-hating Jews are called Kapos as an example. I agree that words shouldn’t be used loosely lest they impart the wrong message.
@Shalom-al-Israel
There is a fourth, of course: Jews who recognize the gross inhumanity of the wicked Zionists against our brethren under Zionist control.For starters, the wicked Zionists forcibly impoverish the (chareidi) Jews there by forbidding them to work until age 26 unless they first agree to convert from Judaism to Zionism in the Zionists’ shmad army.
The senseless sheer brutality used by Zionist police against Jews there, including men, women and children has been reported here numerous times.
There is an additional Torah-based point that is often lost. Chazal tell us that making someone sin is worse than hariga. Zionism is the opposite of Judaism. It makes untold numbers of people commit numerous sins, from its ideology to its education system to its army. This is largely ignored but, in the Torah’s view, this is actually worse than Nazi murder.
@israeli-doc
You stated that you “cannot fathom how even with the worst behavior of the police, people can compare them to Nazis. Sad.”
For one example, Yaldei Teiman would definitely qualify.It is indeed sad that you cannot fathom that, but that doesn’t change the facts of the world-class evil that the wicked Zionists have committed against the Jewish people there.
anyone who reads up about the nazi’s does not call them nazi’s
it only serves to cheapen the unspeakable horror of the nazi’s
it does not elevate the horror of the machti’o
think about this and you will get my point
..
micro,
Here’s what you recently posted about a Jewish woman and baby living with ISIS:
“While it is obviously horrific that yet another korban of Zionist shmad was involved with an Arab and to such an extent, she would have been spiritually even worse off had she become a garden-variety atheist Zionist instead, as she presently at least believes in G-d unlike the atheist Zionists. That “spiral” is much worse.”
You’ve proven once again that you worship nothing more than the god of anti-Zionism which has only one commandment. You’re the ultimate Kapo and deserve the same fate. May you and your NK – Nazi Kapo buddies spend the rest of your lives with the Islamic animals you love so much and be destroyed with them. I hope there isn’t anything left of you to bury. Enjoy your downward “spiral”!
@GadolHadofi
So, you mean you don’t believe in the Torah. Chazal say Gadol haMachtio min haHorgo.
Regardless, you are both evil and foolish for cursing a Jew, especially for no good reason.May Hashem help and protect all His children.
Let’s also keep in mind that every single one of these who supposedly is a “nazi”, if they pay taxes they have a chelek as the biggest supporters of Torah learning in the entire world. $570 million each year to just Chareidi Torah institutions. I know a lot of frum Jews who are not zoche to such hachzokas haTorah
micro,
The only torah you believe in is anti-Zionism so don’t quote Chazal, you filthy Nazi Kapo. If a scum like you can heartlessly post that Jews are better off in captivity then you deserve to be with ISIS and destroyed along with them.
May Hashem help and protect all His children, and destroy you with all His enemies.
ujm, HaKatan, your chelek in Gehinnom is ready along with anyone calling a Zionist or any fellow Jew a nazi. burn, baby, burn
It is immature and embarrassing. Unfortunately, public trends are hard to stop. Even Rabbonim have limited influence.
@Rocky:
That’s pretty interesting Zionist logic you’re proposing, which goes something like this:
A Jew anywhere in the world who spends thousands of dollars a year directly supporting Torah has less merit than a Zionist storm trooper who abuses Jews since some of his tax money goes to support Torah.
Moreover, any Jew who contributes anything to that “State”, like by visiting there, for example, and paying anything in taxes, would then also have that same “merit” as the storm trooper – in addition to the thousands of dollars he pays to support Torah.
That’s besides the fact that these storm troopers are hurting Jews, which is obviously not negated by their tax dollars supporting anything.
Wow.That *might* have been commendable if they actually wanted to support Torah. They have very different ideas about what their taxes should be funding.
pekak> That *might* have been commendable if they actually wanted to support Torah.
well, this “Issachar/Zevulun” contract is indeed forced on them. But I believe tzodaka is one of those mitzvos that give the person zechus even when he is not doing it with full heart, just based on the results.
This discussion is reminding me about the story with the Rav in the fancy carriage that the rich person didn’t want to give money to and was told that it depends on what your כוונה is, so the standard Israeli isnt thinking of supporting Torah so won’t get the זכות
you can not reason with a Zionist or any other idolator
@Shalom-al-Israel:
I did indeed include that word “spiritually”.
@GadolHaDofi:
Seems like you are looking in the mirror. Don’t curse another Jew, especially when you are so wrong about motivation and everything else.
Besides, it’s obvious that you’re just making excuses because you don’t believe in the Torah and just want to falsely label and bash innocent people.
You should be ashamed of yourself for accusing and cursing innocent people. May G-d forgive you.We are all very tired of your kanausdik banter. It is not your g-d given mission to stir up every coffee room with anti zionist rhetoric, no matter how much zionism bothers you. I’m sure you have more important things to do with your life. Like focusing on your family, job etc…
Moreover, there’s no way your rosh yeshiva z”l or Rabbi Savitzky would approve of anything you’re writing/ doing, no matter how anti zionist they might be. Show your rabbanim or your rov your writing and see what they say… Are you brave enough to at least ask they’re opinion?
-A concerned person who sincerely thinks you have an unhealthy obsession.
Coffee addict. Your story actually proves the opposite. They get the zechus no matter what. Their kavana only enhances the zechus to a higher level. If you don’t believe me, ask your Rabbi.
No matter what we think their kavana is, it is irrelevant. Only G-d judges and only He knows the challenges and the level that every Jew in on. Only he knows how much of a tinok shnishba every Jew is and the levels he has grown in avodas Hashem. He knows the zechuyot a police officer or soldier has in protecting the lives of his fellow brethren and the mesirus nefesh he has performed in that capacity. He knows the level of emunah of every Jew and how far he/she has advanced in spiritual growth, given their own individual circumstances.
You know nothing of this. It is certainly safe to say that almost none of these men and women you deride has fallen to the level of Amalek. If I had to wager on it, I would say it is a safe bet that none of these individuals has fallen that low.
A contract is only valid if it’s agreed upon by both parties. This isn’t a contract. It’s Robin Hood.
@johnnysmith
I support @Hakatan’s participation in CR. He tends to get to the core of a lot of issues, enlightens them with Torah true perspectives, and save many of us from the need to answer in his stead.This website is targeted for Jews who practice Judaism. If there weren’t so many messianic/reformists/zionists/etc trying to defend their nonsense, Hakatan (and others) wouldn’t need to counter it in this public space.
micro,
You’re no innocent, just an evil NK – Nazi Kapo who criticizes other Jews constantly due to your false god of anti-Zionism.
What sort of demented individual posts that they prefer Jews to be in ISIS captivity? You have cursed yourself and this will happen to you!
Johnny S.: I’m not at all tired of hearing the Emes shared with us by HaKatan שליט”א. You are no one’s spokesman. And it, indeed, is his G-d given mission to fight on behalf of the Torah and Toras Emes. And I and many other thank HaKatan for that. I’m certain every one of his Rabbonim fully approve of what he does for Klal Yisroel.
Rocky: The Chofetz Chaim explicitly paskens we must judge who is an apikorus and treat them accordingly.
pekak, of course it is not a valid contract, as I said “forced on them”. I never heard an answer to this.
UJM: I am curious to see your source on that? What is your litmus test for distinguishing between a bona fide apikores and a tinok shenishba?
Are you also familiar with what the Chofetz Chaim has to say about people who say lashon hara on those who are not 100% apikorsim?
Or do you just call everyone who thinks differently from you an apikores?And if you honestly think that if the Chofetz Chaim would go up to every secular Jew Jew and call them a Nazi to their face…..
there are a lot of enlightened yidd’s here some may even be doctors. these enlightened jews can not fathom that chazal wud say gadol hamachtio min hahorgoa and that’s because in the worldview of the enlightened jew it is not so. it is much worse to be horgo much, than to be machtio
but chazal did say it and that is evidence that the worldview of chazal and of the enlightened jew are on opposite pages
say it ain’t so
If you believe in Chazal that גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו, then which is worse, physically killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them to Gan Eden as קדושים, or spiritually killing 6,000,000 Jews and sending them elsewhere? (Plus literally killing over 2,000,000 Jewish babies.)
On more than one occasion I have seen caricatures of Chareidim in Chiloni publications that look exactly like Der Sturmer with Hebrew captions. In Germany it took only six and a half years of propaganda to turn the world’s most sophisticated and cultured society into mass murderers. In Israel this level of propaganda has been going on for 77 years and we can still walk around as Chareidim without being killed. פוק חזי מה בין פושעי ישראל לנביאי אומות העולם
Everything katan and ujm say is horrible. They don’t represent Torah in any way. 98% of Jews would be shocked and horrified by the things they say, let alone entirely opposed to their nonsense.
Katan an UJM don’t represent Torah in any way. Everything they say is horrifying. 98% of Jews would be shocked and appalled by what they say.
User176: Everything I said is 100% Toras Emes. Unfortunately 98% of Jews don’t believe in the Torah. You should know this youself. For every Torah observant Jew there’s 49 Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, secular and Open Orthodox Jews.
Rashi writes that Chazal say 80% of Yidden were unworthy of Yetzias Mitzrayim and died in Mitzrayim. The Mechilta (Yesh Omrim) says only 1 in 50 came out of Mitzrayim. The Seforim HaKedsohim similarly say, based on the Midrash Tanchuma, that when Moshiach comes bmehero byomeinu that only one in five Jews will be saved.
The Chasam Sofer (in his Toras Moshe on Parshas Va’eira) discusses the Chamushim ratio and emphasizes that the “refining” process is meant to separate those who have completely attached themselves to secular or “impure” ideologies from those who maintain a connection to Hashem.
The Chofetz Chaim often spoke about the Chevlei Moshiach and says that only those with strong Emunah will “stay on the table” and not fall through the holes.
Rocky:
“החפץ חיים בהלכות לשון הרע כלל ח’ סעיף ה’ – אומר: “אותם האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות מצווה לגנותם ולבזותם בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם”.
ובהמשך- “אפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה… ואפילו הוא אומר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מפסוק אחד…”
At the end of Shmiras HaLashon (Hilchos Rechilus 9:15), the Chofetz Chaim writes that the prohibitions against Lashon Hara and Rechilus do not apply to reshaim and kofrim and that it is, in fact, a mitzvah to mock such persons:
“מצוה לפרסם דעתם הכוזבת לעיני הכל ולגנותם, כדי שלא ילמדו ממעשיהם הרעים.”
“It is a mitzvah to make their false opinions public before all, and shame them so that others do not learn from their evil deeds.”
ujm said – Unfortunately 98% of Jews don’t believe in the Torah.
What in the world are you talking about?! There are approximately 15-16 million Jews worldwide. Of which 3-4 million are Shomer Shabbos. Of the Shomer Shabbos approximately two thirds are Chareidim. Two percent of 15 million is 300,000. There are more Satmar Chassidim plus Eidah Chareidis etc. Yidden than that!
There is a story that when Chofetz Chaim was stuck in early USSR, he came to the local (Jewish) commissar and said to him – I don’t think I can move you to the teshuva, but when you’ll get to Olam Habo, you will be called to answer for your aveiros, and you will respond – I lived in a town where Chofetz Chaim lived, but he never gave me tochacha, maybe I would have done teshuva if he were to come. So, I came to take this excuse from you.
I presume this was taki an attempt to get some feelings out of this man.
Those counting how many Jews are non-religious when geulah came or comes, are also same people who do not want to bother to go try to help those people. When Hashem suggests to Moshe to start a nation from him – the posters here would be onboard with the suggestion. And then Moshe disagreed – they would also condemn Moshe for going against Daas Torah (the one that we all agree here).
Re. ujm and the demographics of Ma’aminim.
Based on all demographic studies, including those done by non-Jews (Pew institute) or secular Jews (including the Israeli government), the percentage of Shomrei Shabbos is approximately a quarter of the best estimate of the number of Halachic Jews by birth, and that percentage is expected to get much higher within a few decades due to the huge differential in birthrate and ‘retention rate’ (i.e., not intermarrying). The Chareidi slice of the pie is the fastest growing and the most retaining… (The average birthrate of Chareidim is double that of MO/RZ and more than triple that of Secular.) There are actually MORE Orthodox Jews now than ANY OTHER “DENOMINATION” except for “unaffiliated” who are anyway going lost because the few children they have usually aren’t Jewish… “Open Orthodoxy” is too small to even be counted as a distinct group. (They probably are counted as MO.) This is aside from the fact that in Israel a large portion of the not-fully-observant (and a majority of the Sephardim who are half of the Jewish population) self describe as believing in Hashem and the Torah and certainly wouldn’t be caught dead in a Reform/Conservative anything. (And they have more kids than the hard-core Chilonim… And they are far more likely to become BT…)
So don’t be so down. The Ribbono Shel Olam is moving things towards the true Geulah, may it be ברחמים גדולים and like we say on Shabbos Nachamu, (UNLIKE the 20% who made it to יציאת מצרים) may it be איש לא נעדר.
By the way, the Navi Yeshayah clearly says והביאו את כל אחיכם בית ישראל מכל הגוים וכו׳ which Rashi says refers to Jews who don’t even know they are Jewish altogether, and Moshiach will gather them too, so don’t be so quick to write off Neshamos (who לכל הפחות know they are Jewish) as a lost cause חס ושלום.
ujm
Yes, there is a process of בירור. Yes, it says וברותי מכם המורדים והפושעים. Yes, the Erev Rav will disappear. But that could very well take place through the demographic and sociological בירור process without killing anyone.
YYA: Your count of total Jews is way off base. Where did you pull that figure?
Firstly, you’re probably including Goyim who call themselves Jews. (Non-Orthodox and Zionist political conversions and their offspring for centuries; so-called “patrilineal” Jews and their offspring for generations; etc.)
But that’s the smaller issue with your figure; you’re missing all the Jews who R”L shmaded to another religion and their offspring for millennia; all the Jews who R”L were born Jewish but considered themselves non-Jewish and their offspring for millennia; etc.
To ujm
I never thought I would say this, but I’m agreeing with a point you made today. You cite the Midrash Tanchuma that only one out of five Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Actually, the Gemara in Cheilek 111A says that only 1/300,000 Jews will be saved. The exact number isn’t the point I want to bring out. The Lubavicher Rebbe rejected this Gemara and declared that every single Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach. Woody Allen, Charles Schumer every intermarried Jew. There will be no distinctions. And YYA of course, agrees with the Rebbe, because he considers him a Novi who is above the Gemara. As for your 98% statement, I would take exception with that, but obviously there are more irreligious Jews than religious ones.
@Hakatan and UJM: What are your names for tehillim? I think you guys need tefillos…
I “heard” in the name of Satmar Rebbe zy”a that there are only [or will only be (when moshiach comes)] 6000 erleche yidden in the world [or in eretz yisroel].
Now without debating the accuracy of such a statement, nor debating the value of such a statement even if indeed having been taught by the Satmar Rebbe. My question for you, @yaakov-yosef-a, is simply if you would be bothered by that fact?
Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible?
I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.
I beg you to please, if you respond to my question, explain if this aligns with your view on the masses of secular reshoyim that claim the title “jewish” while claiming they don’t keep shabbos.
Unfortunately it seems that many people would rather ignore what the Torah teaches it really means to be part of klal yisroel, what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva), and instead they would rather feel better relying on questionable if not heretical Torah claims or relying on questionable if not heretical “rabbunim”, all to avoid personally doing tshiva.
ujm – “YYA: Your count of total Jews is way off base. Where did you pull that figure?”
From publicly available information culled from multiple sources, most of whom would not be inclined to inflate the number of Chareidim or even Jews in general. Please provide alternative numbers if you can.
ujm – “Firstly, you’re probably including Goyim who call themselves Jews. (Non-Orthodox and Zionist political conversions and their offspring for centuries; so-called “patrilineal” Jews and their offspring for generations; etc.)”
No. If you include those (i.e. ‘law of return’ “Jews”) the number goes up to 24 million.
ujm – “But that’s the smaller issue with your figure; you’re missing all the Jews who R”L shmaded to another religion and their offspring for millennia; all the Jews who R”L were born Jewish but considered themselves non-Jewish and their offspring for millennia; etc.”
Those are bona-fide תינוקות שנשבו in the literal sense. What do you do with the Rashi in Yeshaya who explicitly says Moshiach will bring them back? What about והביאו את כל אחיכם? What about איש לא נעדר? What about ובאו האובדים בארץ אשור והנידחים בארץ מצרים? What about וחשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נידח? What about ועמדו רגליו ביום ההוא? What about מוריד שאול ויעל? And more and more and more… Why the blood lust for sending the Ribbono Shel Olam’s children to Gehennom ר״ל? Just to make yourself feel better? If you really think Pshat in Sanhedrin is literally 1/300,000 Jews, do you think you and ‘qwerty’ will make the grade?
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