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somejew – The number mentioned is 7000, not 6000. The source is a Midrash quoted by Rebbe Avraham Azulai זי״ע author of חסד לאברהם and אור החמה. The Satmar Rebbe זי״ע did mention that.
You asked – “Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible? I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.” עד כאן דבריו
If you “have no issue” with that happening in the literal sense of the word, then don’t worry about it, you also won’t be there. Personally I don’t think I am in the top 7,000 of Klal Yisroel either. If you think you are, then you probably have other issues you need to do Teshuva for if you want to make it there alive. Note that even אם תמצי לומר that this Midrash no other source ever quoted is meant literally, it isn’t talking about who will go to עולם הבא, only who will survive the final חבלי משיח in עולם הזה. It also contradicts dozens of Pesukim and מאמרי חז״ל, aside from multiple other kashes.
Why would you have a הוה אמינא to base your entire השקפת החיים on this one (very novel and not poshut at all) source? You do know that the Divrei Yoel זי״ע himself did much chessed and tzedakah even with Jews who didn’t follow his Shittos, do you?
You said – “what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva)” עד כאן
You mixed up Pshat in the Gemora in Rosh Hashana לבלי חוק אפילו חוק אחד. That isn’t the standard for losing Olam Haba. That is the standard for entry to Gehennom, after which מבצבצין ועולין. By the way, learning Torah is a good way to avoid or reduce Gehennom, and it gives you a much more positive attitude in Olam Hazeh too.
I don’t understand why some people are so obsessed with anger and negativism. Why do you or ‘ujm’ care who will be in Olam Haba? Are you finished with yourselves? This has nothing to do with Zionism or the Medinah or Chuck Schumer. Hashem has His ways of bringing back whoever needs to come back, and getting rid of whoever needs getting rid of. יבוא בעל הכרם ויכלה קוציו. That has nothing to do with our job in this world.
@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ll start at the bottom of your answer and go to the top, since I think it will make my point clearer.1)
My reason for the “negativism” (chalilah to call Torah such a thing!) in focusing on this part of the Torah is specifically because of people like yourself who validate and promote heretical anti-Torah viewpoints simply because there are a lot of foolish people who believe and/or parrot those crooked ideas. This aversion to push against apikorisus simply because of the number of claimed adherents is both obviously foolish and a stable of all types of apologetics for xtianity/reform/zionism/etc.2)
I didn’t “mix up pshat”, I expressed the statements of poskim who have outlines the various consideration, classifications and degrees of sin, sinners, and how we are meant to relate to them. The sefer Bina V’Daas from a rav adler (? i think) shlit”a is a respected starting point for the different shitas.3)
Beyond that, I am disheartened that you straw-manned my question as if it is “my whole hashkafah” based on a statement of which I barely claimed to be aware of its accuracy. My point in mentioning it was simply to bring out the absurdity of the aforementioned numbers game. The point is NOT to think “I’m the greatest” or even “only my group has the emes”, its simply to demand of myself to seek the emes of the Torah despite the rampant kefira and misdirection from fraudulent authorities: “common knowledge”, “gedolei yisroel”, “satmar rebbes”, “reform rebbes”, “charedim”, “all jews”, “klal yisroel”, “hamodea”, “artscroll”, “melech hamoshiach”, etc.We Jews have an inheritance called the Torah that is accessible and available to anyone who wants it. It is the Torah that is taught by our true gedolim as per the guidelines outlined in the classic sources we all known and love.
If you are not sure who is a “true gadol” or what is a “classic source”, daven and choose a starting point, and Hashem will certainly lead you to the emes. It is only fools with agendas that say things like “well, it’s complicated” or “there are many opinions that are all valid” vis-a-vis a general Torah outlook.
The reality is that details can indeed get complicated, edge cases can have a spectrum of validity, but 99.9% of true available Torah is neither complicated nor undecided for laymen. The talmidei chachamim who are osek in Torah, the gedolim whose tshivas fill pages of complexity, are dealing with that 0.1% of ambiguity that sharpens and build true daas Torah.
4)
The “6000” is not, as I understood it in my comment, a statement of “top 6000 of klal yisroel”, rather I understood it as a statement of who is AT ALL part of klal yisroel. That is to say when moshiach comes klal yisroel will only number 6000 (or, 7000 as per your correction).That means, as I am understanding it (again, not a centerpiece of my hashkufeh, just an exercise of integrity), the other “jews” are “jews” who are not part of klal yisroel, who do not get olam habu, who do not do tshivah when moshaich comes. These evil masses (in this theoretical) we are not allowed to love, rather we are obligated to hate. We do not pray (explicitly) for their “return”, rather we pray for their destruction.
So, my question again @yaakov-yosef-a: does this bother you? If so, why?
Now, I understand you are probably screaming ” but that’s misunderstanding the medrash of 7000!!”, which I fully admit might be true. Yet I suspect that you struggle calling the movement of “religious zionists” “reshoyim evil worse than nazis” despite that they are teaching a fake “torah” like the notzrim teach their fake “torah”. I suspect you have problem hating their priest leaders because of “kavod ha(fake)torah”, even though you know Kook sh”y had no valid sources for his teachings and knowingly tricked the masses to rebel against the Torah. All this only because of a numbers game trap you have fallen for.
Jewish blood flows like rivers because of the zionists, their wars, and the Divine punishment they arouse upon sonei yisroel. Worse, the kefira continue to spread worse than reform, and simple people start believing that our gulis is because of lack of an army or our rescue by means of one, chalila. Beyond that people start believing that Judaism is an ethno-religion or just “the best life”. It’s not “just” that, rather Judaism begins and ends with us being am hanivchar that is fully submitted to Hashem and His Torah. And when the aforementioned red lines are clear, there will be much less confusion for those who want to be part of klal yisroel despite the zeitgeist.
somejew made a very revealing statement just now :
I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.
—–
that gives you an accurate description of where on the map somejew is positioning himself
according to somejew there are now , probably only a few hundred , or maybe a few thousand non heretical jews on the planet
according to somejew it seems that 99 % of haredi jews are kofrim [full of heresy – in his words] ….
we should keep that at the forefront of our minds whenever we read his posts …..
.
.reminder to the reader:
what somejew claims to be ‘torah’
does not necessarily have to jibe with the real torah
somejew has selective reading glasses ….
.
.SomeJew – I think you really need more help than I thought you did. You selectively choose certain maamorim and fly away with them to places no normative gadol (including Satmar) ever thought to go with them. 7,000 is around 10% (?) of Satmar? 90% of Satmar are also Goyim?! Do you understand where you are going with this and why you may seriously need help?
@yaakov-yosef-a
I don’t see what your issue is (besides the ad-hominem attacks).My whole point is that we, you and I and all kosher Jews, look to and learn from the Torah as passed down. We don’t play numbers games!
That’s all.
I’m writing a longer relevant response for your new topic https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-jew , which I suspect was inspired by this thread.
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