June 23, 2021 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1985875ParticipantParticipant
@philosopher you seem to opine that the vaccines aren’t effective against the variants. does that mean u know the severity of those vaccinated yet newly infected?
basically there are 2 options. their situation is worrying and ergo your post. or they have mild symptoms and Israel is overreacting by like a million times. (there is precedent for these overreactions; see articles posted earlier on this thread). and in which case vaccines are doing their job.
I’d like to know which it is.June 24, 2021 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1985921
philosopher, people who take vaccines and are careful are not negatively affecting anyone, except that you feel you are surrounded by sheep, and we probably also give you an ayn hara.
people who do not take vaccines and/or are not careful contribute to continuation of the pandemic, causing damage to the society, and dead and sick people. Even people who are vaccinated can still be infected. As we talked before, 95% protection from infection is based on the same behavior with and without vaccine. If you take a vaccine and relax behavior while being in the same treat environment, your risk is still high. For example, if a person is in the group of unvaccinated uncareful people and is close to them for a sustained time period, he will get infected, even as his chance of getting seriously sick is not high. Still, it is possibly some damage to health that we do not know well enough. It is seen now in Israel – even with very low overall rates, the moment rules are relaxed, one person can infect tens of people.
Most significant benefit from the vaccine comes from the group effect – R0 <1: each person infects on average less than 1 person and soon everyone around is clean. Currently, US R0 is just lower than 1 – 0.85 – it achieved lowest point of 0.75 on May 25 and went up for the two weeks after that, when everyone started relaxing the rules. Most Europe (except UK) and Canada have now R0=0.5 that is decreasing dramatically. US also now vaccinating 0.3% of population per day – as much as under Trump, while Europe does 0.8% per day.June 24, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1986153philosopherParticipant
Always ask, it’s ok, I feel you are sheep and you feel that we have chutzpah. But who cares, the main thing is that everyone is comfortable with their decision. The problems start when people want to FORCE their OPINIONS AND SPECULATIONS on others on others.June 24, 2021 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1986173
I wish i felt they were sheep. I feel they are hateful, aggressive, peers who can’t recognize that someone with a different valid approach is entitled to one. If only sheep….June 24, 2021 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1986174
and that’s the garbage i got flung at me WITHOUT being anti madk. I was spat on for asking them to give others room to follow their own professionals.June 24, 2021 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1986208
philosopher: it’s ok … people want to FORCE their OPINIONS
as I explained, it is not symmetric. People who are careful are usually not harming anyone. If I’m not going to the pizzeria, I am harming the store owner, but I am not obligated to support him to begin with, and I use other services instead.
People who are not careful are part of the reason we had 600K people dead and more sick [proof, thanks to my kid: if everyone would stay at home for 2 weeks, the virus will be gone. QED]. You can have your argument that it is just a small problem, that your community has magic protection. that it is ok to kill the grandma for the sake of your mental health, etc. But you need to make your argument, and the other side does not. Similar to any other topic: a person who hits kids needs to prove that it is mutar. The person who is nice to kids, does not have to prove anything.June 24, 2021 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1986245
Always Ask Questions- but apparently disregard all answers you don’t like.
This MUST be clarified:
People who are not careful are part of the reason we had 600K people dead and more sick
This is a lie. Outright lie used to destroy klal yisroel, breed divisiveness and hate. A lie.
We were told repeatedly by the CDC and medical personnel that this virus CANNOT be prevented. We were told straight out that the restrictions were to SLOW the spread so the hospitals would have space. People died because of the virus. The EXPERTS (of which you are not one) stated that there was a need to SLOW the spread, because it was not possible to prevent the spread. Especially with inadequate masks that EVERY doctor knew would do very little.
Stop spreading lies. Stop spreading hate. Stop causing machlokes. Stop making up your own medical truths.
And get some help learning how to say “i don’t know ”
“I was wrong”
“I am sorry”
It will probably prolong your life decades more than your mask and outdoor minyan.June 25, 2021 8:50 am at 8:50 am #1986255philosopherParticipant
Syag, we are talking to walls basically…These people are such believers in whatever the political leaders of this corrupt government say, the same government that says people can “change” genders and that children under 18 can get hormonal therapy to “change their genders”, these same “health experts” are on a crusade of taking away our basic rights because “they know best”. Now the liberal idiots are talking about a “climate lockdown to save the environment” and many in the government are considering this seriously. I kid you not.
And who empowers these corrupt people in the government? The sheep who fight tooth and nail for them! Yes, they are bitter and angry that we dare have different opinions, but they are sheep nonetheless. It’s not Fauci, the head of NSAID who made sure the Chinese lab was well funded to able to have gain of function of the coronavirus which killed millions globally, no he’s not responsible, we are! It’s not Coumo who put coronavirus infected patients in nursing homes killing tens of thousands of seniors, it’s we who killed them! For shame!June 25, 2021 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1986259
>> We were told repeatedly by the CDC and medical personnel that this virus CANNOT be prevented. ,,, Especially with inadequate masks
Some of that original pessimism was because many believed that vaccines can be developed so fast and will be so effective and society will not be able to SD forever.
“cannot be prevented” and “slow the spread” are contradictory – as we “slowed the spread”, vaccines were developed and now most people who did not have it before will be safe. “slow the spread” means that without measures we used, there will be an extra million dead.
There was no reason for “inadequate” masks after first 1-2 months. K95 masks are widely available. Furthermore, if you were able and chose to change your lifestyle temporarily, you could live without masks most of the time.
You seem to circle to some generic philosophical “expert conclusions” instead of focusing on simple medical facts – being not careful causes increased virus propagation and people sick. Virus does not know about CDC recommendations, it just needs a person nearby to jump to.June 25, 2021 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1986260ParticipantParticipant
child prodigyJune 25, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1986281
“Some of that original pessimism was because many believed that vaccines can be developed so fast and will be so effective and society will not be able to SD forever.”
Wrong. There was no pessimism, it was realism. The medical experts throughout those first months spoke about how highly contagious this virus was and how we will not be able to stop it but we need to slow the spread . Sound familiar? Slow the spread was THE slogan when ordering the preventions because we could not stop it.
And hahaha that it was thought the vaccine would come quick and save the day. Trump was the only one who thought that and everyone knew he was nuts. So you are not correct about that at all.
“instead of focusing on simple medical facts – being not careful causes increased virus propagation and people sick”
Duh. The problem is that:
1) The virus was already spreading around for weeks or months before they caught on.
2) Everyone believes that statement. The issue is on the extent some individuals have gone to decide what qualifies as careful without authentic evidence. Do you hear me at all? Some individuals have taken it upon themselves to determine what careful means and denounce everyone else even tho facts are not always in their favor.
For instance the hundreds of people you keep hoping will drop dead, ch”v in the shuls that weren’t careful so you could support your view even tho it DID NOT (and please Gd will not ever) become true.
And yes. I do know of really careful (by your definition) people who died from covid or tested positive for antibodies without a clue how it could’ve happened (no, none of the reasons you would like to start listing occurred) The REASON is, because, as the medical professionals said before the politics kicked in, you cannot prevent this virus from spreading, you can only slow the spread so the hospitals have room.June 27, 2021 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1986462
Syag: hahaha that it was thought the vaccine would come quick and save the day. Trump was the only one who thought that and everyone knew he was nuts.
Apoligizse, I skipped “not” – I absolutely agree with you. You can see that business experience at the top level of government helps solve problems.
I do not understand the rest of your post. Yes, there were some people who were careful but got exposed. Statistically, people who were more careful, were less exposed. Yes, virus was spreading before it was understood, but not everyone was exposed. R0 – number of people that are infected by one carrier was about 2 at the beginning and fell down to less than 1 when SD was introduced.
It may be you are focusing too much on masks themselves and taking worst case of bad masks and wondering about the protection, but surely SD was important – those who were circulating less were better off. Again, I only learned post-factum that Panevezh Rosh Yeshiva was apparently not giving pubmic lectures until he and his students were vaccinated. Was he unreasonably careful? Why didn’t he go out [ublic after his vaccine without requiring students vaccinatedJune 27, 2021 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1986612
You’re telling me to apologize?June 27, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1986617
?? just saying I mised “not” in
Some of that original pessimism was because many believed that vaccines can NOT be developed so fastJune 27, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1986624
I knew that. I was just trying to see if you would clarify by actually using the words “I apologize” No dice.June 27, 2021 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1986655
? I apoligized for not writing carefully and posting invert of what I intended. I am also sorry you are not satisfied with my apology! 🙂June 28, 2021 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1986747MadeAliyahParticipant
Hi YWNCR, I missed a few weeks so can anyone help me catch up? Have we yet found an answer for the question posed in the OP, or did we just shrug and move on?
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