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Hi there.
I have a serious question (no im not a scifi nerd by the way).
Extraterrestrials in judaism.. there are many quotes in zohar and midroshim (tikunei zohar) which talk about tzadikim reigning over stars, and of course in devorah it speaks about
cursed is meroz cursed is its inhabitantswhich many meforshim explain as being a star in another world.Then we have many things such as eliyohu hanavi going up in a
chariot of fireetc.. which sounds a lot like an ancient interpretation for going up in a bright ufo.Okay i dont want to speculate and sound like im wandering into the realms of fantasy so ill cut the examples there, but my point is the universe is a huge place, im sure Hashem didnt just create it for the fun of it, or simply because He could, and i see nowhere at all in the Torah where it says that life is limited to this small planet we call earth..
So, what do you think?
And no im not talking about
little green menor things like that, im referring to a world just like we have here.All the sifrei kabballah that talk about olamos are talking about spiritual worlds not physical ones. That is clear from how they describe some of these worlds.
If you look in Rashi on that posuk in shoftim it will be clear that the “inhabitants” are those that are in the vicinity of the star.
A chariot of fire, is a chariot of fire. You need to bring some type of proof that the words mean something they doesn’t say.
The entire world was created for the sake of klal Yisroel and the Torah. We are here and the Torah is with us. Without a mekor that specifically speaks about a physical world populated with physical beings there is no reason to assume that one exists.
Rav Yaakov Hillel, known as one of the greatest (real) mekubalim of the generation said the following: “One has to understand that when the sifrei kaballa talk about hair and beards and fingernails the hair is not hair and the beard is not a beard. If you think that it is, of course it makes no sense!” (From a collection of drashos he gave in America)
My guess would be that this is even more true of words like “world” and “star” which even everyday language uses metaphorically.
Derech: A chariot of fire is a chariot of fire is a chariot where the wheels have legs and bodies that are not exactly wheel-like at all (the merkava). Does it make any difference in hashkafa, halacha, or anything else what the chariot looked like?
Many comments in the CR seem to originate from ETs.
The Sefer Habris also derives from Shiras Devora that there might be inhabitants on another planet. Inhabitants, meaning life, not humans and a society.
sorry – that should have read ‘THERE being only one Torah’
IS:
It doesn’t make a difference what it actually looked like per se. The pasuk says “???? ??? ?? ????? ???”. What matters is what we are saying it did. It could be that Eliyahu used the maaseh merkava to go up. I’m not a mekubel so I don’t know how these things work, but I see that Eliyahu went up in a ???? which is also found Yechezkel 1:4.
What matters is if the purpose of this vehicle was to bring Eliyahu to shamayim or to another planet. Without any mekor, for saying such a chidush, you need to bring a proof that it is anything other than what is commonly explained.
Finally an interesting topic!!! I heard a great dvar torah from a rebbi of mine who has since passed away. Its a well known DT. I had asked him about stuff like this and fossil records and the like. And he said the following: The Torahs first letter is a Bet. It is a letter that is blocked off from all side save for the next letter and word and paragraph and so on. It need not concern us what hashem did, or might have done without us or before us. We need to follow the open direction of the letter Bet. Even if there are non humans in the world or there were dinosaurs before us. It doesn’t change the fact that we now, are charged with upholding the Torah and its commandments. As a side note for all you sci-fi fanatics, years ago I read some sci fi book where the aliens that were met, were Jewish. The pic on the cover had a green (of course) alien wearing a talit. And it was written by a serious sci-fi author.
Derech: The merkava was just an example of chariots that don’t look like chariots. Maybe he did go up in the merkava, maybe he didn’t. The words ???? ?? imply that the chariot he went up in wasn’t the one from Yechezkel because the maaseh merkava doesn’t mention horses.
What matters is if the purpose of this vehicle was to bring Eliyahu to shamayim or to another planet. Without any mekor, for saying such a chidush, you need to bring a proof that it is anything other than what is commonly explained.
We’re agreed. Of course there is also the opinion that he actually died and all subsequent instances of gilui eliyahu were his neshama being used as a malach (Radak quoting someone earlier) in which case the chariot didn’t bring him up, he went up as all neshamos do.
(no im not a scifi nerd by the way).
Your loss. 🙂
The Wolf
hope you all realize the two main stars of star trek are Jewish
hope you all realize the two main stars of star trek are Jewish
Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes are Jewish? 🙂
The Wolf
(Reminds me of an old Billy Crystal joke. He knew he was getting old when his daughter came to him one day and asked “Is it true Paul McCartney was in another group before Wings?”)
WolfishMusings:
Aren’t Orthodox Jews and Ferengi two of a kind?
So there are Extraterrestrials in Judaism.
Aren’t Orthodox Jews and Ferengi two of a kind?
As you are, obviously, aware, I pointed out commonalities between Orthodox Jews and the Ferengi. But because there are commonalities does not mean that they are, in fact, one and the same.
Of course, I also shouldn’t need to remind you that Star Trek is fiction.
The Wolf
Mikehall, your facetious criticism of the frum is no more palatable than your direct criticism.
I posted earlier (for some reason it wasn’t allowed by the Mods) that a Rishon, Rabenu Kraskas in Sefer Or Hashem discusses life on other planets and as I recall says it is possible.
However, I have heard it said that it is impossible that intelligent beings capable of moral judgement inhabit other planets as this would cause difficulty with the principle of there being only 1 Torah.
However, I have heard it said that it is impossible that intelligent beings capable of moral judgement inhabit other planets as this would cause difficulty with the principle of there being only 1 Torah.
In what way?
The Wolf
Wolf, I would hazard a guess as follows: The Torah is the moral code of all society, the code that defines what is good and what is bad. Even for non-Jews, it defines what is good and bad. All moral judgements point one way or the other ONLY because the Torah says so.
Therefore, if you have a society that does not have any connection with the Torah as they are on another planet, then for them by definition the concepts of good and bad and moral judgements cannot exist. This is as opposed to all humankind on Earth for whom the Torah’s giving through Moshe at Sinai (on Earth) constituted the message from G-d of a definitive moral code – Jew (613 mitzvos) and non-Jew (7 mitzvos) each on their level.
To pre-empt an obvious question on what I have just written; surely there are some commandments in the Torah that are ‘Mitzvos Sichliyos’ i.e. commandments that could be arrived at by simply using an innate sense of right and wrong e.g. the prohibition of murder? The answer I think I once heard to this is that in truth even these type of commandments are in essence rooted in the Torah’s definitive moral code. Thinking that we would arrive at the commandment without the Torah’s existence is an illusion. (See Rabbi Keleman’s book Permission to Believe for more on this last point.)
Re Eliyahu Hanavi – the Gemara in Sukah says that he did not rise higher than ten tefachim (cubits) in the physical realm. Surely that should put to rest any discussion about UFOs in that context.
the main stars of the original star trek and most of the movies,
william shatner and leonard nimoy
The answer I think I once heard to this is that in truth even these type of commandments are in essence rooted in the Torah’s definitive moral code.
Totally not. The Brisker Rov (and the Shagas Aryeh, IIRC) bring that the Torah is an override of “moral” code, and the general good of society. The examples given is lending with interest, which is good for the economy, and Assisted suicide. Both may be allowed in Noahide law (IIRC), but not in Torah law. The Brisker Rov explains (and I don’t remember where) that Noahide law is meant to create a “moral” society, while Torah law is following the will of Hashem over what you would think is the right thing to do.
Gavra – no contradiction. The moral code to which you refer as being ‘overidden’ by the Torah can and does exist naturally in society but the point is that they cannot be described truly as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ as these terms have NO TRUE MEANING AT ALL unless there is a G-d given Law – the Torah – that provides the ultimate definition of right and wrong.
Without the Torah Chas V’Shalom, Human Society and its interactions, a moral code with its laws and behaviour is coldly reduced to the following:
1)A bunch of atoms grouped together in a certain way (the Human Form)
2)These atom bunches are capable of interacting within themselves in a particular way (Thought and Choice).
3)This often results in a further External interaction with other similar groups of atoms in various ways (e.g. providing them with “food” which prolongs the time they exhibit the property known as “Life” or, the opposite; e.g. putting a sharp knife in them thereby removing from them the property known as “Life”).
4)Many of these bunches of atoms have collectively over the years internally interacted resulting in something known as a “Decision” that some External interactions shall be named as ‘good’ and some ‘bad’ in accordance with the ‘Feeling’ (another property exhibited by these atoms) that these external interactions foster.
Derech Hamelech – It’s true Eliahu Hanavi went up in a chariot of fire, which could possibly be interpreted as a UFO. Did Hashem not also say He would bring Jews from Galus to E”Y “al kanfei nesharim” (the wings of eagles), and did not the mass emigration of Jews to E”Y (most notably from Ethiopia) look exactly like they were flying on the wings of a giant eagle? We do not need to always be literal, but understand the poetry, as well.
the “Chesed L’Avraham” (the grandfather of the Chida) speaks about what the Zohar discusses about there being seven hidden lands, with various beings living in each land. The Zohar speaks of the inhabitants of one of the lands called “Neshaya”, where the people are shorter than our people. The Chesed L’Avraham says that the world is essentially hollow, with various layers, like the layers of an onion, and he describes the inhabitants of “Neshaya” as having large heads, small bodies, no ears or noses, only holes, and a small slit for a mouth, and large black eyes. He says that these people do take people sometimes briefly for their needs. Sounds like “grey aliens”. Probably what people think are the aliens from other planets are actually the people from Neshaya under the earth. It is still possible though that there is life on other planets, but those who abduct people are probably closer to us than other planets.
Where did you think the 10 ????? are? The other side of the Sambat Yon Galaxy, of course!
Kolemes, the Ramak quotes that Zohar Hakadosh and refers to the fact that even Tanaim had a hard time believing it, until they witnessed it. He says that we can’t force people to believe these things, but you shouldn’t mock it. It’s a better idea not to bring things up that cause mockery of the Torah and its sages.
The Me’am Loez on Parshes Berashis talks about Aliens. He writes that there are aliens with a human head and horse body; like a Centaurs. He also writes there are planets where there are very handsome people, but they cannot grow food. They come to this world to eat people! Speaking of Alien Abduction!
What???^ why have we never seen these beings then?
To anon1m0us
Where in Bereishis is this me’am Lo’ez?
In Rav Avigdor Miller’s famous Thursday night shiur, someone asked hime if there is life on other planets, and he responded that he doesn’t know, but that Adam, man, is exclusive to earth.
Talmud: If I remember correctly, Daf Nun or Nun Aleph, when it talks about different planets. Og, and he writes there are beings that have no nose, just two holes in their face….reminded me of Martians!!!!
found this for you guys , id be interested in hearing your opinion..
One of the first to discuss the question of extraterrestrial life in general was Rabbi Chasdai Crescas (Or Hashem 4:2). After a lengthy discussion, he comes to the conclusion that there is nothing in Jewish theology to preclude the existence of life on other worlds. As possible evidence for extraterrestrial life, he quotes the Talmudic teaching (Avoda Zara 3b) that “God flies through 18,000 worlds.” Since they require His providence, we may assume that they are inhabited. we find the opinion of the Sefer Habris who states that extraterrestrial life does exist, but that it does not possess free will. The latter is the exclusive possession of man, for whom the universe was created. The 18,000 worlds mentioned earlier, in his opinion, are inhabited physical worlds. The proof that he brings for his thesis is most ingenious. In the song of Deborah, we find the verse, “Cursed is Meroz… cursed are its inhabitants” (Judges 5:23). In the Talmud, we find the opinion that Meroz is the name of a star. According to this opinion, the fact that Scripture states, “Cursed is Meroz… cursed are its inhabitants” is clear proof from the words of our Sages for extraterrestrial life.
Of course, even this proof is subject to refutation, for the Zohar also follows the opinion that Meroz is a star, yet states that “its inhabitants” refers to its “camp,” that is, most probably, to the planets surrounding it. Nevertheless, the simple meaning of the verse seems to support the opinion of the Sefer Habris.
The Sefer Habris goes on to say that we should not expect the creatures of another world to resemble earthly life, any more than sea creatures resemble those of land.
He further states that although extraterrestrial forms of life may possess intelligence, they certainly cannot have freedom of will. The latter is an exclusive attribute of man, to whom was given the Torah and its commandments. He proves the latter thesis on the basis of the above-mentioned Talmudic teaching that all the stars in the observable universe were created for the sake of man.
Looks like we have genuine UFOs now.
Anyone interested in this topic?
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