False Claim about Jewish History

So at the end of the day lets get the honest true answer.

WHY DO MUSLIMS HATE JEWS? Anyone know? Anyone is welcome to let everyone know what they think the real reason is and why there’s so much antisemitism among Muslims hate more then Christians.

The honest true answer: just like us Jews believe directly from the Torah that we have a mitzvah to destroy Amalek. In the Muslim bible there’s a sentence that says “there’s a ROCK behind you kill him” Muslims are raised to believe that the word ROCK refers to a Jew and they have a direct commandment from their bible to kill Jews.

As an additional note, this is also why there are so many suicide bombers in the Muslims. Cause what do they have to lose a)they get money from the government for being a suicide bomber b)they believe their doing their avoda Zara g-ds will and c)they also get to kill Jews. The question is not on the suicide bomber but actually on the parent how they can give up such a precious child

“before Zionism, Jews and Muslims got-along just fine.”
Even in the 1950s, in Yemen, 50,000 Jews were forced to convert to Islam.
For decades after the Holocaust, Syria was a haven for convicted Nazi-war-criminals.
For decades in Syria, Jewish children as young as six-years-old were tortured-to-death

Your “proofs” are from long after Zionism

The anti-Zionist claims about he Muslims having been such Tzadikim all the years are not true but this doesn’t seem 100% accurate either. There weren’t pogroms and the like in the Muslim countries as often as in Europe. (They did happen but not as often) Shuls were not routinely being turned into mosques etc.

What is the source for the claim that in the 1950s, in Yemen, 50,000 Jews were forced to convert to Islam. I googled it and couldn’t find it anywhere

The question is not on the suicide bomber but actually on the parent how they can give up such a precious child“

I saw a Muslim say this to someone else

We love death as much as you love life

That’s the reason

Why bother refuting Neturei Karta, ignore them. They are a meaningless group not worthy of our time

akuperma: you are wrong that in the Muslims there were no forced conversions. there is a large jewish community on long island ny that are decendants of anuseh mashad. forced conversions under the threat and actual imposition of death was common.

GH When the European colonists left the middle east there were vacuums that were filled by new age religious extremists. Israeli military gave them fuel for their agenda.

Arabs are noble giving people.
Sorce: Aladdin

“Arabs are noble giving people…..”
CS: So are many yidden. Whats your point?

I am also under general impression that it easy easier under Muslims than in Europe. And during crusades, Jews generally supported Muslims in EY … but if you ask Sephardim who lived there, they have mostly negatives to remember. And by these theories, Sephardim should be the most anti zionist, but I am not aware of such outside of old yishuv. Did you ever see a Syrian Jew who misses Asads, or a Iraqi who went back to Great isis?

Welcome back Sam Klein

Dear Akuperma,

” …..and we were exempt from (and in fact, banned from) military service.”

The Turk conscripted Jews into their army in WW1.

I am not sure why conversations about whether Jews were treated decently in Muslims lands always turns into a debate about how much worse the European persecution was. Both of these statements are true:

1) Jews were treated terribly by their Muslim rulers.
2) Jews were treated much, much worse in Europe.

And while I admonished those that need to make the comparison, I will add that an argument can be made that Europe also treated its Jews better than Muslim rulers. In Europe, Jews would go through phases where they were loved and cherished by their rulers. Poland adopted special laws to attract and protect Jews. “Paradisus Judaeorum.” Of course, it never ended well and the untold suffering eventually unleashed on the Jews is unrivaled.

@Square_Route
All that history quoted by you, the OP, may be true. However, in this particular place and time, Palestine, before the Zionist in Europe started making noise about taking over the country, the local Arabs and Jews got along very well. Maran R’ Yoisef Chaim Sonnenfeld z”l would remark about this.

Always,
So the old Yishuv would have moved out of Israel.
Better than the shmad of over 1 million yidden.
Better than the 10s of thousands of Yidden killed in Israeli wars.

Always,

Between the 2 world wars, a number of million Yidden were shmad by joining the “bundistin” and the “communistin,” as you said. The approximately 1 million Jews who came to America before the Holocaust, also had almost all become off the derech, as you pointed out. Reason given was the hardship in holding a job while being Shoimer Shabbos.
However, there were an additional 1 million Yidden who were turned irreligious by joining the “tzionistin.”
The city Satmar in Hungary turned 50% irreligious at the end because of zionism. (Hence, the Satmar Rebbe z”l’s brewing hatred of the tziyoinim. He saw first hand what they did to the youth in his town.) The famous video of Munkatch in Hungary before WWII, with the boys and girls dancing together to zionist music, also had 50% shmad from tziyoinim. Vilna and Brisk in Lithuania (Lita,) by 1938 were turned 97% irreligious by the 3 sects, Bundist, Communist & Zionist. (Practically all, besides for the 2,000 bachurim of the famous Yeshivos.) These are a few examples by cities and countries.

Dear Someday,

So obviously the problem between the wars wasn’t Zionism, it was assimilation. Maybe there would have been more assimilation without Zionism. Fast forward a hundred years, and that is the more likely truth. [I am not advocating for Zionism as an antidote for assimilation. The only point is that it isn’t a clear anti-Zionism argument.]

The Old Yishuv made plenty of problems without the Zionists.

Rav Yosef Chaim preceded the Zionists by at most, two generations. There was a lot of history before then. It was a hard place for Jews to live.

There are around ten thousand actual casualties of actual wars. There are another ten thousand that were killed in more ‘peaceful’ attacks.

I have never met an anti-Zionist that was truthful. So, what is the point of this thread?

Very few people who were frum beforehand went OTD because of the lure of the Zionist movement alone. Had the Zionist not existed they would have found some other OTD movement to join.

For all their faults and personal opposition to religion, the Zionists did not run around preaching abandon Torah and join us. There are plenty of movements that did that you barely hear about. Because most of the anti-Zionists are only interested in fighting with those who they can accuse of being Zionists. They don’t seem to have any interest n fighting other groups who acted and continue to act worse. They have no problem giving kovod to members of the the latter groups when it suits their purposes. They certainly never initiate conflict with them.

Someday,
good history, thanks. Those Yidden who did not see Yiddishkeit attractive, had a choice of commies/bund/zionists (2 types: anti-religious or religious). Simplification, of course.

Out of these, both zionist groups have descendants who are Jewish, and even many non-religious ones have religious or traditional ones. Bund/socialist types were wiped out by commies first, and remaining by Nazis. Commie types went thru same 2 types of gehinom, plus some became murderers themselves. The remnants who re-appeared in 1970s as “soviet Jews” were in much worse shape than descendants of Zionim, both physically and spiritually, with few exceptions of heroic baalei teshuva and dissidents among them.

As to who so many left religion at that time – it is both the lure of revolutionary times and, to a degree, failure of Jewish communities to have a strong alternative. One might argue that religious Zionists created an attractive alternative to those who would otherwise have left, or at least tried.

n0mesorah

In half of your posts, you just keep repeating your same stupidity over and over, refusing to address my answer.

The other half of your posts, are totally unintelligible. One sentence does not connect to the other.

>> The main reason I am not an anti Zionist, is because when there is a chance to improve Torah and Mitzvos in The State, the Chareidi extreme anti Zionists are nowhere to be found.<<
What in the world are you talking about?? Where have the zionist wanted to help with Torah uMitzvos??
The zionist have shmadded up a million Yidden and are the reason 10s of thousand were killed R”N.
No erhliche Yid would want to have anything to do with them.

>> The second reason is that the anti Zionists keep pushing propaganda about all the problems that Zionism causes. I don’t get it.<<
What don’t you get? You only get pushing your propaganda against erhliche Yidden who anti tziyoinim?

>>If you really think that Zionism is a problem according to The Torah, even if it apparently gave us endless blessings we would abhor Zionism.<<
We do abhor zionism.

>>So what does all this history prove? It achieves one thing. It cheapens Jewish Blood.<<
Not intelligible.

>> But I hope we agree that it is all besides the point.<<
What is besides the point.
You write like ch”v had a stroke or ch”v have demntia?
How old are you?
Did you go to a real Yeshiva?
Did you have any Torahdig chinuch?
What exactly qualifies you to have an opinion in this, against ruba d’ruba, if not all, Gedolei Hador from the start of zionism?
The screen name you chose, “n0mesorah,” admits to not having any mesorah. And you are proud of it??

Please stop.

@smerel and always,

Not true. Historically incorrect.

Speak to Yeshivaleit from between the 2 world wars. Unfortunately, hard to find today. I have, first and secondhand. They tell, how there were days there was literally no food to eat. They all new that the tziyoinim’s clubhouse, (funded by donors to their movement, who would not fund the Yeshivos,) offered a free hot lunch to anyone who wanted. Not one Yeshiva bachur would go there. Why? They responded, I don’t know what goes on there. All we knew was, any frum person who walked in there, walked out a fraiyer. Maran R’ Shlomeh Zalman Auerbach z”l, related the same thing went on in his youth, about ih”k Yerushalayim t”v and the gymnasium on rechov Keren Kayemit, down the road from his home in Shaarei Chesed.

The zionist would say, we can’t build a medina with every other day a Yom Tov and other mitzvos.
Maran R’ Chaim Solovetchik z”l said, they claim they are abolishing religion in order to build a medinah. However, the truth is they are building a medinah in order to abolish religion.

Excerpt from Chanan Amior, in Perspectiva, 22.Dec.19:

… One of the prominent books of the renowned British historian, Sir Martin Gilbert, (who was also Winston Churchill’s official biographer), is the book ‘In Ishmael’s House- The History of the Jews in Muslim Lands’ . Over hundreds of pages, Gilbert unfolds a mask of shocking violence.. decrees, riots, humiliations and murders, were the daily and completely natural part of Jews who lived in Islamic countries for 1400 years. The following review is a little of what is presented in the book:

It all begins and ends with the Battle of Khaybar. A Muslim internal struggle in the seventh century AD, between the Muhammad and one of the leaders of Mecca, meant that the Jews of Qurayza were suspected by Muhammad of helping his enemies the people of Mecca. Muhammad’s forces besieged the citadel of the Jews for 25 days. The Jews asked Muhammad to let them go into exile without anything, according to previous precedents of the expulsion of the Jews and they were stripped of all their property by Muhammad and his men, provided that they were not forced to convert to Islam. They were taken prisoner and sentenced to death, in a verdict that from that time on was perceived by the Muslims as a supposed divine[sic]…

700 Jewish men from the Qurayza tribe were taken to the market of the city of Medina. Trenches were dug in the market square, the heads of all the men were beheaded and their headless bodies were rolled into the trenches. Muhammad watched what was happening. All the children and all the women were sold into slavery, or given as gifts to Muhammad’s friends. He took one of the murdered widows for himself. The “Battle of Khaybar”, as it has since been called in Muslim tradition, became a model for the Muslim rulers who came after Muhammad.

A hundred years later, the Jews’ status as “proteges” was legally regulated, and they were required to pay the jizya tax, the skull tax to the local Muslim ruler. The protégés cannot, to this day, serve as witnesses in a Muslim court, build gravestones taller than Muslims, enter bathhouses without a special identification mark around their necks, or carry weapons.

Two hundred years later, in the tenth century, local Muslims murdered about five thousand of the Jews of Granada in Muslim Spain. The background to the pogrom was the continued incitement of the Muslims against the Jews. “They (the Jews) used to wander around us worn out, covered in humiliation, mockery and contempt,” wrote a well-known Muslim poet and jurist of the period. “Don’t see killing them as treason.” By the way, the first Xstian crusade, which happened 30 years later, cost the lives of the same number of Jews, or even less.

Gilbert concludes:

The first four hundred years of Islam were all in the shadow of “a constant threat of discrimination and persecution.

The Crusader period was not more exciting. In the middle of the 12th century, the Maimonides, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon,.., was forced to flee from brutal persecution in Muslim Spain to Morocco. .. In a letter he sent to the Jews of Yemen, Rambam, who was well aware of Christian attacks on the Jews in Europe, wrote as follows:

There is no nation more hostile to Israel than her (the Muslim nation, CE). And no nation that is evil with the evil purpose of depleting us and reducing us and depressing us like it

Jews who refused to convert to Islam were murdered. Jews who converted to Islam throughout the areas of the Sultan’s influence were required to wear humiliating clothes, head coverings resembling donkey saddles and a piece of yellow cloth sewn over the outer garment. The descendants and descendants of the descendants of the Muslims did not enjoy the advantage of time either. Their situation, even after a hundred years since the conversion of their ancestors, has not improved at all. The Jewish philosopher Ibn Aknin, who witnessed the situation of the Jews in Muslim countries in the 12th century, wrote:

We become the target of the Inquisition. Great and small testify against us and our sentence is decisive, and legitimizes the shedding of our blood, the confiscation of our property, the shameful killing of our wives.

The following centuries were no different. Travelers who toured throughout Asia and North Africa, repeatedly wrote in their travel diaries about the persecution, humiliation, individual and mass murder and severe violence that were the lot of the Jewish communities throughout the Muslim world. About how, for example, they were
forbidden to ride horses, only donkeys, about the status of paying the jizya tax to the local ruler, accompanied by a humiliating slap in the face. About the normal and natural way in which the Jews were beaten like dogs and the “amazing submission” in which they “allowed themselves to be crushed by blows in the street”. Gilbert’s book is full of countless evidence and examples of this.

At the beginning of the 19th century, before the Zionist idea was born, the attacks on the Jewish communities in the Islamic countries and in particular in the Land of Israel intensified: in Hebron (1813), Arab sheikhs imprisoned the leaders of the local Jewish community and tortured them for about a year until a ransom was obtained for their release. In Morocco (1820) the Jewish quarter of Fes was attacked. The property was looted, the women and girls were taken to the Muslim quarter and raped, men who tried to protect their wives were murdered. A similar case occurred in Safed (1838). Women were raped, men were tortured to find out where the silver and gold were hidden, the community was destroyed.

In this atmosphere, and under the temporary inspiration of the “Battle of Khaybar”, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini spent his childhood. When he grew up a little, he found himself, as an officer in the Ottoman army, deeply impressed by the massacre of about one and a half million Armenians by the Turkish army. The establishment of a Zionist Jewish society throughout the country was a disgrace to him and the possibility of exterminating it as the Armenians were exterminated excited him.

At the end of the thirties of the 20th century, Hitler asked for the support of the Arabs and therefore proposed to remove from the Arabic translation of his book ‘Mein Kampf’ the part where he placed the Arab race at the bottom of the hierarchy of races, with only the Jewish race below him. In February 1941, the mufti, who had meanwhile fled from Jerusalem to Baghdad from the British, sent Hitler a draft statement of support for him, under three conditions: that Hitler agree to denounce the Zionist enterprise as illegal, that he recognize the right of the Arabs to solve the Jewish problem “as is customary in the Axis countries,” and that he prohibit Jewish immigration from The Nazi occupation of Israel. From Baghdad the Mufti wandered further, until he reached Berlin, where he met Hitler, convinced them not to allow the planned deportation of 4000 Jewish children to Israel and also offered personal help, in the form of the formation of an SS division. Missionary Muslim, whose job it is to murder about half a million Jews in the Land of Israel.

An illustration of how deep, fiery and independent of time and place is the hatred of the Jews in the Muslim world, was provided by one of the perpetrators of the infernal attacks on the island of Bali in 2002, an Indonesian Muslim named Amrozi Ben Nurhasin. It is likely that the same terrorist, who lived his life in Southeast Asia, had never met Jews. He was found guilty of the murder of over two hundred people, many of them Western tourists, none of them Jewish. During the reading of his sentence in court, with the eyes of the whole world on him, he shouted

Jews remembered Khaybar. Muhammad’s army returns again to defeat you.

____

Chaim Schloss in :2000 Years of Jewish History: From the Destruction of the Second Bais Hamikdash Until the Twentieth Century,” (Feldheim Publishers, 2002, chapter 6), details how the Jews were offered to convert to Islam, but the 700 courageoues Jews refused and died on sanctifying Gd’s name.

Things, exaggerated propaganda.