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Me and a friend were arguing whether a father can marry off his young daughter today. I said he could do so m’ikkur hadin, halacha l’maaisa per Shulchan Aruch, but is only precluded from doing so by local secular laws. But if he lived in an area where the goyish laws didn’t prevent it, he could do so today. (In New York the youngest age to legally get married, with parental and judicial consent, is 14.) The friend feels Shulchan Aruch itself would preclude it. Who is correct?
why not look in the S’A.
I hate to be the “grammartarian” (!), but you did mean to write- my friend and I were arguing….
Sorry!
FYI In NY the age of consent is 16 not 14.
I think Rav Shlomo Auerbach held that if someone tried to marry off their young daughter they were considered a Rasha and were not to be trusted
14 is still and will always be an outrageous age for marriage.
I think Rav Shlomo Auerbach held that if someone tried to marry off their young daughter they were considered a Rasha and were not to be trusted
Which, even if correct, does not detract from the halachic validity of said marriage if done properly.
The Wolf
If he does it, the kidushin is certainly binding.
Of course, he is a rasha, as zahava’s dad notes in the name of Rav Shlomo Zalman.
In Jewish law, a father could only marry off a daughter who was still a minor as defined by Halacha. By the time the girl was 12, the age of Bas Mitzvah, she was already a Bogeress(a full adult), at which stage her father could no longer marry her off without her consent. Although the Torah made this legal, it actually seems to have looked askance at such a practice because at one point it states that such a girl’s father “has betrayed her.” I don’t know what the current Halachic status of that law is, Rov Auerbach is spot-on, and in our time only a very evil man would do it.
Mermaid: In a generation where it’s accepted practice (and in some circumstances better for everyone involved) then there’s no Rish’us in it. In a generation where such a person would be labeled a pedophile and a disgusting person, there certainly is Rish’us in it.
PBA: I could see someone trying to Ta’ana that since it’s not legal and since you need to make a Kinyan to be Mekadesh, then Dina D’Malchusa would be Mafkia the Kiddushin.
Really? I don’t hear that.
B’shlama if the law said that it isn’t his money, then fine. But the law isn’t saying that.
In fact, the law doesn’t even say that you can’t do kiddushin with a minor. It just says you can’t be civilly married. There is no law against doing a kiddushin which is halachicly binding.
PBA
The law says a minor cant consent, so even if they arent civilly married the girl still cant consent
Mermaid: I think it’s even accepted by Frum Jews that Bizman Hazeh marrying a minor is wrong.
PBA: I just said I could see someone making the Ta’ana. I agree it wouldn’t work.
zdad: Yes of course. The biah would be statutory rape. But that doesn’t mean the kiddushin is a crime.
Its assumed if there is Kiddushin, there is biah
B’vigdo Bah/B’vagdo bah. Yesh Eim Lmikra darshans the lashon of beged; Kivan sheparas taliso aleha shuv aino yachol l’mochrah, or in other words, ein adam mocher es bito l’ishus achar shifchus. But the yesh eim l’masores people explain it as a lashon of treachery, as in Ashamnu Bagadnu, and not therefore advisable behavior.
Mermaid: By minors I obviously meant a minor Al Pi Halachah (under 12-and-a-half), not 18.
Its assumed if there is Kiddushin, there is biah
Not to nitpick, but it’s probably more correct to say “… if there is n’suin,…”
The Wolf
This halacha was probably very important to the Jews of Yemen under the Orphan’s Decree. By marrying off orphan’s as soon as possible, they were able to save them from forced “conversion” to Islam.
“Why would the Torah create a specific halacha to marry her off at that age if it is rishus to do so?”
There is no specific halacha to marry her off at that age.
Yes, but there is a specific halacha allowing him to.
There are also Halachas to own slaves and practice Polygamy, but we dont follow them either
There was a case all over the news about 15 – 20 years ago of a couple in a bitter divorce where the father declared he married off his little daughter in this manner, and refused to disclose to whom. It was an ongoing situation for a number of years. I don’t know or remember what the resolution to that case was, but everyone was all up in arms (obviously).
There was a case all over the news about 15 – 20 years ago of a couple in a bitter divorce where the father declared he married off his little daughter in this manner, and refused to disclose to whom. It was an ongoing situation for a number of years. I don’t know or remember what the resolution to that case was, but everyone was all up in arms (obviously
This is where Rav Shlomo Auerbach came in, He had said someone who marries off he daughter like that is a Rasha and not to be belived and it was void
Its assumed if there is Kiddushin, there is biah
Look, we are way beyond the discussion here, but ok. Someone suggested that perhaps because the marriage is illegal, the state would say the money doesn’t belong to him, which might invalidate the marriage. I pointed out that that is not how the law works. It is irrelevant if other things are illegal.
1. Why can a father marry off his daughter like this, but a mother cannot?
Because G-d said so. He gets to make rules, because He created the world.
Also, a mother together with a brother could if the father is dead. The marriage is d’rabbanan, and the daughter is allowed to object when she grows up.
2. Why can a father marry off his daughter like this, but cannot marry off his son like this?
Same answer.
This is where Rav Shlomo Auerbach came in, He had said someone who marries off he daughter like that is a Rasha and not to be belived and it was void
I believe you are mistaken, and Rav SZ never said it is void. AFAIK the halacha gives the father a chezkas kashrus if he declared he married off his daughter.
So there are halachos that regulate this. There are hilchis gittin, does this mean every marriage must end in divorce? There are halachos about yefas toar, does this mea every soldier must come home from battle with one? There are halachos regulating the sale of an eved ivri and also a nirtza who wants to stay past 6 years, should we start a market to facilitate the kiyum of these halachose? The torah allows kiddushin through “biah” yet the gemara states Rav would place those who did so in cherem for doing so, why, if there are halachos that regulate this.
Halachos regulating something does not mean the torah wants or expects someone to do something. It means the torah allows it, under the rules it sets down. You are free to ask why. You might want to start with Rishonim such as Ramban and Ibn Ezra behind the “philosophy” of these mitzvos and your questions will be answered. Why chazal are not happy with a fathher who does this, will also become clear.
About the supposed quote from Rav Shlomo Zalman z”l
I believe your are referring to (and misquoting) a psak that was about a public and I think internationally known chillul hashem.
I hope no one posts the details.
The question was not ‘is someone who is mekadesh his daughter a rasha?’ the story was much more complex than that.
but of course by the time it gets to the coffee room it becomes,
Rav SZ said ….
btw this was one of his last psak, He was niftar soon after.
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start young to create a heimeshe family. all for Hashem and whatnot.
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