October 30, 2016 1:31 am at 1:31 am #618588
I recently watched a shiur on shidduchim where the rabbi said that you must make sure that the person has a fear of Heaven.
Generally that means…
***For men: He learns Torah in his spare time and learns every week.
***For women: She dresses tzniusly.
The rabbi said that for men, just because a bocher has a beard and wears a kippa doesn’t mean that he fears Hashem. You have to see if he is engaged in learning Torah.
Yet for women, her outer appearance is the top indicator of her fear of Hashem? Okay fine women don’t have the obligation to learn Torah. Still, isn’t is unfair to judge a woman unfavorably by her appearance?October 30, 2016 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1196274
I think tznius is very important, and I wish boys would make it more of a priority in shidduchim. Maybe that would encourage girls to dress more tzniusly. After all, the reason why girls don’t dress tzniusly is because of peer pressure and caring how people think of them. If boys would prefer to go out with girls who dress tzniusly, then the peer pressure would work the other way and the girls would WAMT to dress tzniusly. At least, that’s what I would think.
And yes, I think that dressing tzniusly can be an indicator of Yiras Shamayim, even more than learning is. Someone can easily learn Torah and still be lacking Yiras Shamayim. He might learn because he enjoys it or it makes him look good and feel good about himself. But dressing tzniusly is something that usually takes a certain amount of Yiras Shamayim since most girls find it hard to some extent (some find it very hard). Also, the peer pressure for girls is often to NOT dress tzniusly, whereas for boys, the peer pressure is to YES learn.
Tznius is not about outer appearance. It’s an indication of what is going on inside the person. A girl dresses tzniusly precisely because she realizes it’s her pnimius (inner self) that is important and not her chitzonius (outer appearance).October 30, 2016 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1196275iacisrmmaParticipant
There’s a difference between “appearance” and “mode of dress”. A woman may have a good “appearance” but will turn some guys off if her dress/skirt is above her knees or shirt/blouse above the elbows.October 30, 2016 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1196276
iacisrmma – good point!October 30, 2016 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1196277
Is there pressure within a community to not dress tzniusly? I feel like in close-knit communities, dressing less modest than one’s peers would be an immediate call to question one’s derech.
Are there not women that dress the part just to keep under the radar? Or is that in your opinion, a rarity?
I wonder. I feel both ways. On one hand I have some more attractive tznius clothing and heels that I want to wear, and yet feel like wearing certain clothing that follows tznius guidelines may still be considered eye-catching in more conservative places like shul.
Meanwhile, I see some FFB women who dress way more attractive, while keeping elbows and knees covered. So yes I do want to wear more fun clothing that is still technically tznius.
So it’s back and forth.
Still… wait that’s another good point about the men. If men are pressured to learn, then why is their learning an indicator of their Yiras Shamayim vs. peer pressure?October 30, 2016 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1196278gofishMember
***For women: She dresses tzniusly.
For real? No, that shows more often than not that she is conforming to society. Fear of the neighbors or the shadchanim is more like it.
Besides, there are different shittos. What one community considers tznius, another one would consider not tznius.
And, I find it very disturbing to gauge a woman’s level of fear of heaven based solely on dress. That’s very superficial.
Especially since nowadays, it is so easy for people to hide behind a levush of piety. You have no idea what is really going on inside. She can be doing it mindlessly by rote because that’s what everyone else in her society is doing. While having horrible midos, never davening, no connection to Hashem, and a Yiddishkeit that is dull and lifeless. And no fear of heaven at all.
And there are people that dress that way just for shidduchim even though that’s not who they really are at all.
All in all, I’d say it’s a very shallow way of judging people’s yiras shomayim. (And I don’t think we necessarily can really judge anyone’s yiras shomayim accurately.)October 30, 2016 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1196279
golfish she obviously quoted only two sentences from the shiur which is bound to sound superficial. Is “for boys learning Torah” not superficial? you don’t know who the shiur was aimed at or what the context was so there’s really no reason to get angry.
With that said I do think that to some extent NOT dressing tzniusly indicates a lack of yiras shomaim. How you dress is a choice like everything else you do.November 2, 2016 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1196281JosephParticipant
Obviously a Yiras Shamayim wouldn’t dress untznius by routinely wearing a skirt halachicly too short (or tight).November 2, 2016 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1196282
Tight could be lack of awareness, but I agree with you about short (if it’s clearly too short). In fact, I had written a really long post about that, but it was deleted.November 4, 2016 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1196283
gofish: Validation! Thank you.
Person1: The shiur was aimed at teenage girls to prepare them for shidduchim.November 4, 2016 3:44 am at 3:44 am #1196284
lightbrite & Gofish – While in theory it can be possible that someone is dressing tzniusly simply to conform and it MIGHT be possible to claim that s.o who dresses tzniusly is not acting out of Yiras Shamayim, surely if someone is dressing or acting in a way that is clearly against Halacha, this indicates a LACK of Yiras Hashem. I don’t see how it is possible to say otherwise. If you think so, I would love to hear your reasoning.
Hashem told us that our knees are not allowed to show (not sure if it’s D’Oraisah or D’rabbanan but Hashem told us to keep D’Rabbanans, so it’s still from Hashem either way), and this girl is choosing to wear a skirt that doesn’t cover her knees even when she is standing still. She knows that Hashem said not to do it, and yet, she is doing it. How can that not demonstrate a lack of Yiras Hashem?
Again, if you have an explanation, I would love to hear it. I am assuming of course, that we are talking about someone who is violating a clear-cut halacha of tznius (and not something that is minhag hamakom) and that we are talking about a girl who received a good education and is well aware of hilchos tznius.
I do know girls who don’t dress tzniusly but are wonderful people and have a lot of Emunah and Bitachon and Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Yisrael, but I fail to see how it’s possible to say that their Yiras Shamayim is not lacking. Again, maybe I’m wrong, and if you have a counter-argument, I would be happy to hear it.
Regarding the idea that someone can be dressing tzniusly just because of society, while in theory that can be a possibility, it seems to me that the opposite is much more likely. The societal pressure nowadays is by and large to NOT dress tzniusly. Also, remember that tznius is not just about dress, so even if someone is really lacking Yiras Hashem and is only dressing tzniusly to make an impression but she really is not a “tzniusdik” person, she will find other ways to be untznius, or she will find a way of dressing that conforms to societal expectations but is not really tznius.
Also, regarding societal “pressure” to dress tzniusly, aside from the fact that today that is pretty uncommon, it seems to me that there is always a yetzer hara to not be tznius even if one lives in a time and place where the pressure is to be tznius. On a personal level, I grew up in a time and place where it was more “mekubal” to be tznius than not to be, and by nature, tznius is not my weak point and not something that I generally have to struggle with, BUT I stil remember a few times in my life, when I was nichshal in the area of tznius. So I think it is something that is a nisayon for everyone, and does demonstrate Yiras Hashem.
I know that girls often don’t like hearing things like this (that tznius is so important and demostrates Yiras Hashem, etc.). It seems to me that that is because it is so hard for most girls, but that is exactly why it demostrates Yiras Hashem.November 4, 2016 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1196285
After I finished writing the above post, I thought some more about why it is that girls object to hearing about tznius. I think it’s the idea that it sounds so negative – why should your essence be judged by something you don’t do, and davka something that is seemingly so external? I think that is more or less what you were asking, lightbrite.
I think maybe the idea is not that the be-all and end-all of your existence is being tznius. Of course there is much more to your Avodas Hashem than that. But maybe the point is that this is where it starts, not where it ends. Tznius is the outer casing that gives meaning to everything you do.
I’m not good with mashalim, but maybe it’s kind of like a police badge or uniform. It’s the thing that shows who you are and what you are about and gives meaning to everything you do.November 4, 2016 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1196286
There are many people who learn and lack Yiras Shamayim and many have Yiras Shamayim and don’t learn
Yiras Shamayim is
what you do and what you are when no one is looking.
Those who has burning Yiras Shamayim ,it impels them to go out and change their environmentNovember 4, 2016 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1196288Abba_SParticipant
While Yiras Shamayim and learning are good attributes that a son-in law should have but for a long lasting marriage someone who has a good heart and gets along with people might be better. With the high number of people getting divorce it is important to have someone with a good heart and knows how to calm down the situation. Likewise someone who works has a lot to lose in a divorce and so is less likely to divorce and if there is one will give a get in fear of financial penalties. While a learner has no incentive to stay in the marriage or give a get as it’s all his wife’s money.November 4, 2016 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1196289JosephParticipant
A Yiras Shomayim is much more important.November 5, 2016 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1196290
Joseph maybe you meant yiras shomaim is much more important than learning, on which I agree.
But it wouldn’t make sense to say yiras shomaim is more important than middos tovos, let alone “much” more important. Are you better off with a bycicle missing its front wheel or its back wheel?November 5, 2016 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1196291
Maybe he means that someone who has true Yiras Shamayim will have good middos by definition.
Even if that’s true, it still makes sense to look out more for good middos because it is much harder (if not impossible) to tell if someone has Yiras Shamayim than if they have good middos.
Also, even if in theory, Yiras Shamayim should include middos tovos, I’m not sure if it is necessarily the case l’maaseh. I think that most of the time when Frum people lack good middos it is either because of emotional issues or because of bad chinuch, and having yiras Shamayim doesn’t necessarily help. If someone naturally has a bad middah, it is very, very difficult to change it even with all the Yiras Shamayim in the world.
While I do think that middos tovos is the most important quality to look for in a spouse, I think that one should look for both middos tovos and Yiras Shamayim. If someone has midos Tovos but is lacking Yiras Shamayim, then their middos tovos may be somewhat superficial and they may change if circumstances change. I think that Yiras Shamayim provides a good basis for the middos tovos and ensures that they are likely to stay.
Also, it seems to me that if the person has good middos but you don’t share common goals, there is a danger that the marriage might not last when there are difficulties. But if you share common goals (meaning, you are both true Ovdei Hashem who got married l’sheim Shamayim), the marriage has more of a foundation and is more likely to withstand difficulties.
So bottom-line, I think that good middos are more important, but it is important to have both.November 6, 2016 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1196292
Person1: Better to have the front wheel intact; you can convert it into a unicycle.November 6, 2016 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1196293
Back to the thing about tznius and yiras shamayim please, well what about taharas mishpacha?
Aren’t there women that are makpid on TM who on the outside are not so tznius?
LU: Certainly there are good and actually great points to show that tznius may reflect a woman’s Yiras Shamayim. I guess that it bothers me to hear someone explain that one’s fear of heaven can be summed up by looking at someone’s klippah. Maybe I am in denial and/or underestimating the details that go into covering up. In essence, maybe I care too much about the Why.
Why is this person tznius? Why is this person not tznius? There are details that make it complicated sometimes. I don’t know; that’s just my view at this moment at this time of my life with Hashem’s help and chesed.
Thank you for sharing and your in-depth explanation <3November 6, 2016 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1196294
“Kissui harosh is very important, obviously. If a wife reduced her tzniut standards, than al pi din, that’s a dealbreaker. If a wife increases her level of tzniut to the point where a husband is not attracted to her, than that is a problem requiring pastoral and marital counseling.”
It’s interesting how tznius affects a marriage in so many ways.November 6, 2016 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1196295
Lightbrite: I love the way you always have positive things to say to fellow posters even when you don’t necessarily agree with them!
“Why is this person tznius? Why is this person not tznius? There are details that make it complicated sometimes.”
If you are talking about “grey” areas of tznius and things that you are not sure if they are tznius or not, that is an entirely different topic. I took your opening post at face value and assumed that we were talking about things that are clearly untznius and against halacha.
“Aren’t there women that are makpid on TM who on the outside are not so tznius?”
I’m sure there are, but:
1. Therefore, what? There may be people who are mechalel Shabbos but are very makpid on Kashrus. They are still being mechalel Shabbos. I’m not sure what your point is? TM and Tznius are two different Mitzvos; they are keeping one and not the other.
2. I don’t know which of the two is more important. They are both Mitzvos and both must be kept. It is possible that TM is more important; it’s also possible tznius is. I have no idea. BUT, one VERY important difference between tznius and most other Mitzvos is that when someone dresses untzniusly, she is causing others to sin and causing others to go to Gehenom. I find that many of the girls who dress untzniusly are very sweet girls who would not willingly hurt other people. They clearly don’t realize what they are doing, since they would not do it if they did. THAT is what is so upsetting to me when I see girls dressed untzniusly. If they had any clue what they were doing, they would not do it.November 6, 2016 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1196296
Lightbrike: “If a wife reduced her tzniut standards, than al pi din, that’s a dealbreaker. If a wife increases her level of tzniut to the point where a husband is not attracted to her, than that is a problem requiring pastoral and marital counseling.”
What you are saying is basically true, but I would just like to add a clarification. When you say that if she increased her level of tznius…, I assume that we are talking about something that is a chumra. If she had not been aware of or had not kept a particular HALACHA, obviously she is required to keep it.
My friend’s cousin grew up not knowing that covering one’s hair is a halacha (I guess she thought it was a chumra.) One day, after she had already been married many years, she found out that it is the Halacha. As soon as she heard this, she started covering her hair. Her husband tells her every day how ugly she is, so it is very hard for her and takes a lot of mesiras nefesh, but she continues covering her hair anyhow. She sometimes tells my friend that it is really hard and maybe she should stop, but my friend always encourages her by reminding her of how much schar she is getting. (and yeah, I don’t get her husband either).
On the other hand, if an Ashkanazi woman had always worn a sheitel and decided one day that she wants to stop and her husband doesn’t want her to, I would agree that it would be wrong for her to stop, since not wearing a sheitel is a chumra for Ashkenazim.November 6, 2016 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1196297
Lightbrite, I also wanted to point out an important difference that occurred to me between tznius and most other Mitzvos. This may be one of the reasons why it is considered so crucial, and why it is considered to epitimoze what a Bas Yisrael is about.
The fact is that the way you are dressed is both a constant and something that is clearly visible to all those whom you come into contact with. If a girl puts on a short skirt in the morning, she will be wearing a short skirt the ENTIRE day. When she davens, when she does chesed, when she goes on the bus, wherever and whatever she is doing, she is doing it while wearing her short skirt. Furthermore, this is something very noticeable to whoever comes into contact with her in the course of the day, and will probably be one of the first things they notice about her. Because, yes, a person’s chitzonius is the first things you notice about them!
Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?November 6, 2016 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1196298zahavasdadParticipant
There isnt exactly one custom for Ashkenzaic Jewery. It is not monolithic. German Jews have different customs from Litvish , who have differnt from Chassidic who have different from OberlanderNovember 6, 2016 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1196299
lilmod ulelamaid: Thank you for appreciating the light and sharing yours as well 🙂
Alas… I get what you’re saying. I brought up the TM mitzvah because to me that’s a super yiras shamayim. Tznius has all these logical reasons that can be explained. Granted, so can TM. People say that it brings the husband and wife closer together. Hashem made it so they are together when there is the most opportunity, generally, to conceive. Bottom line though, we do mitzvot because we want to be one with Hashem’s Will (so all of these reasons are really secondary and irrelevant to “why” we do it).
I heard a rebbetzin tell a story about someone going in her untznius clothes to the mikvah during the summer. It was beautiful. I didn’t know that someone was makpid on TM sans tznius.
Personally, I have to look at myself. If tznius being so important is something that I contest to, then perhaps it is because it’s a huge issue for me (which it is). I want to ultimately be makpid on many mitzvot. As far as tznius, I feel like if others and Hashem knew (well Hashem knows everything, so maybe I mean rabbis or something) what happens when I dress tznius and how much suffering it causes, then one wouldn’t take it as a personal attack against Yiddishkeit.
What about vitamin D deficiencies and the lack of sun exposure on a woman with olive-toned skin? What about someone whose medications cause excessive sweating and she lives in a hot climate? Dehydration. Wet clothes. Acne from having a sweaty back. Doctors appointments to deal with the acne. Embarrassment. Having to change clothes multiple times a day. Doing laundry constantly. I want to live. Torah is for life not suffering.
I do not wish for anyone to sin by looking at me. I don’t deserve the blame. That’s how I feel. I am not to blame for someone else’s transgression. I have to live. I don’t want to fall into a depression because tznius is suffocating.
Okay there is my confession. If my yiras shamayim is tied up in the way that I dress, then I don’t have it nor aspire for it. I don’t want to judge others. It is not my job. I want to see the good.
For the record, I just wanted to share my perspective here. I really am not asking for solutions to my sweating or tznius issues.
Thank you thank you thank youNovember 6, 2016 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1196300
ZD – I saw a letter from Rav Chaim Kanievsky in which he said that it is mutter for Ashkenazi women to wear sheitels (as per the Mishna Berura). He did not differentiate between different types of Ashkenazi women. I was basing my statement on his psak.November 6, 2016 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1196301
Lightbrite- thank you for sharing your perspective. It honestly never occurred to me that tznius could be so difficult for someone who is as much of a “bas aliya” as you seem to be.
I know you said you don’t want solutions, but I would like to point out that the idea that dressing tzniusly causes Vitamin D deficiencies is a very controversial one. My brother who is not Frum and is a medical school graduate said that it is ridiculous and you can get enough Vitamin D from being outside for 20 minutes while dressed tzniusly. Also, my doctor who very much believes in the Vitamin D deficiency thing, told me that it is very controversial and most of her colleagues disagree with her on it. My brother explained that the reason why so many people are supposedly lacking Vitamin D nowadays is because they raised the amount of Vitamin D that they decided people should have, but there was no real reason for that.
In terms of your other reasons, it is hard for me to understand why it is so difficult, but I don’t have to understand. I don’t find it so difficult; you do. I guess different people find different things difficult.
You said that you don’t want solutions, and I am not sure that I have any anyhow. You are right that Hashem does not want us to get depressed. All I can do is to give you a bracha that you should find a way to grow in tznius without getting depressed.
I know you don’t want solutions, but maybe you should try taking small steps or setting up a reward system for yourself (or with others if that makes it easier).
You definitely sound to me like a real bas aliyah and someone who does have Yiras Shamayim and is always trying to grow, so I wish you a lot of hatzlacha and continued growth.November 6, 2016 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1196302
This thread has just won the “most constructive thread of the year award”
lightbrite there are two things I wanted to tell you:
1. That in my opinion when determining one’s level of yiras shomaim by a certain mitvah they donot do properly, we have to take into consideration how hard this mitvah is for them. Not that you should give up on the mitvah just because it’s hard for you, just so that you can evaluate how far you’ve come properly.
2. A little advice: you need to be smart in Avoidas Hashem. Often you can find ways to get around the yetzer ara without actually fighting it.
Tell me if you understand what I mean. If not I’ll try and think of some examples (The ones I could think of were too personal to share)November 6, 2016 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1196303HappygirlygirlMember
To all you cliche people complaining about how u can’t judge fear of God ON a woman’s appearance…I feel like you’re lying to yourselves. The same way if you saw a girl who had holes in Jr tights and dirty clothing and knotty unkempt hair and smelled bad you would automatically assume that she’s either slow, poor, abused at home….etc the same way you can judge a girl by her appearance. To some extent of course because there will always be the people that hide their true unstable insides…but most of the time ita detectable in their appearance doesn’t. No one should make it their business to judge people to begin with…but you shouldn’t complain cause I’m sure we have all judgedNovember 6, 2016 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1196304
Person1 +1November 7, 2016 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1196305
lilmod ulelamaid: Thanks for the encouragement and bracha. Amen and blessings to you in your growth and b’hatzlacha as well <3
Person1: Thank you for “most constructive thread of the year award”!!! It’s an honor to have people invest so heartfully in this discussion.
You said: “2. A little advice: you need to be smart in Avoidas Hashem. Often you can find ways to get around the yetzer ara without actually fighting it.
Tell me if you understand what I mean. If not I’ll try and think of some examples (The ones I could think of were too personal to share)”
If I know what you mean… I think it sounds like judo, where someone uses the opposing’s energy against him/her. So if the yetzar hara is coming at me, I can just do a little foot move and it collapses out of my way.
In real life, maybe that’s like when I finally found a skirt that covers my knees at Costco to wear under a dress that I’ve had for over a year.
Also, recently I have been purchasing business casual attire to build up my career wardrobe. The pants are way more conservative than my jeans, and the tops are long-sleeved. Plus these clothes makes me feel confident. So maybe that’s a way of not even dealing with the yetzar hara.
Still… when I go to the beach or exercise or go grocery shopping and go on walks with my dog, dressing tzniusly feels like oppression by fabric.
That’s the conundrum. Okay so maybe at some times I can step up my tznius game. Yet there is this divide where I feel like I am living a double life. Anyway, I know that this sounds like my YH has taken over my fingertips.
Please let me know if I caught the drift.November 7, 2016 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1196306
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Lightbrite – First of all, Kol hakavod! it sounds like you are doing a great job with working on tznius! I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of “living a double life”. You are working on things one step at a time, just as we are supposed to. If that is called “living a double life” then we all live double lifes! We all have Yetzer tovs and yetzer hara’s. That is how Hashem created us and how we are meant to be. We are constantly battling our yetzer haras. Sometimes we give in more, and sometimes less.
I heard a really amazing story that I was reminded of when I read Person1’s first point. There was a kid-at-risk who was struggling very hard to get back on track. One Shabbos, he was trying very hard not to smoke. He went one hour, two hours, three hours, and then four hours, it was too hard for him, and he gave in to his yetzer hara. He got really depressed, and he spoke to his Rebbe or mentor about it. His Rebbe said to him, “I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll take the gehinnom you would get for smoking on Shabbos. But, only on one condition. You must give me the Gan Eden you have coming to you for not smoking on Shabbos for four hours.”
I thought that was a beautiful story and one you should keep in mind, Lightbrite.
ps: I’m not trying to say that you are necessarily going to gehinom for the times you don’t dress tzniusly. I don’t know Hashem’s cheshbonos, and I don’t want you to get the wrong message from the story. Just trying to counteract some of the prior fire and brimstone messages.November 7, 2016 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1196309
lightbrite yes that’s what I meant.
Being that I am male and born to a chareidi family I can’t really advise you on your own struggles. I can just suggest that you instill in yourself the belief that people can change (which means Bchirah) even if the path to change is not visible. Also don’t focus only on a Single issue in the Torah. Find other places where you can step up your yiras shomaim.November 8, 2016 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1196310
“Find other places where you can step up your yiras shomaim.”
Person1: Yes yes yes thank you !November 8, 2016 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1196311
Lightbrite – You seem like someone who excels at bein adam l’chaveiro. So maybe work on that since you are good at it. I think that Rabbi Orlofsky says that a person should put his kochos into his strong points (hope I’m not misquoting).
Obviously, I don’t think a person should ignore his weak points, but if he tries to focus at least as much on his strong points, he will feel better about himself and this will give him more koach for his avodas Hashem in general.
btw, I have noticed in general that people who are nicer and sweeter and better at bein adam l’chaveiro often seem to have a harder time with tznius.November 9, 2016 3:23 am at 3:23 am #1196312
Have you tried reading “Outside Inside” by Gila Manolson? She discusses the reasons to be tznius, and she has a very positive approach that I think you would like.November 9, 2016 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1196313
lilmod ulelamaid: Interesting… never heard of “Outside Inside” by Gila Manolson. I shall put it on my to-do list thank you.
I listened to an hour and five minute shiur this morning on soulmates on TorahAnytime. The rabbi mentioned a quote that says something along the lines of, “A tzaddik gets a good person and a rasha gets a untznius woman.”
—Why not say a rasha gets a rasha? Because the way to tell if a woman has emuna is through her modesty. He said that yes it’s possible that some people are religious on the outside and not the inside, but to look for emuna in the other person and men should def look for a modestly dressed woman.
Gosh it’s so serious.
It’s cool to hear about your observation that “people who are nicer and sweeter and better at bein adam l’chaveiro often seem to have a harder time with tznius.” I wonder if that’s a general theme.
Btw: Thank you for highlighting my strengths and being so resourceful <3November 10, 2016 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1196314
lilmod ulelamaid: Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?
Actually, there’s no tznius section of the Shuchan Aruch – rather,
the requirements of tznius are derived from the halachos about
not saying divrei kedusha in the presence of ervah.
Abba_S: Likewise someone who works has a lot to lose in a divorce and so is less likely to divorce and if there is one will give a get in fear of financial penalties, while a learner has no incentive to stay in the marriage or give a get as it’s all his wife’s money.
A. Do we now choose who to marry based on how hard it would be to get a divorce out of them, and/or how statistically likely they are, given their potential finances, to divorce you?
B. Wouldn’t he want to keep that money?
C. To get remarried (for more money?), he’d need to give a get.)
D. Divorce is not known as a positive experience.
Is that not incentive enough?November 10, 2016 11:52 am at 11:52 am #1196315
lightbrite: I brought up the TM mitzvah because to me that’s a super yiras shamayim.
Violating taharas hamishpacha is actually a very serious sin,
one that bears the penalty of kareis, being spiritually cut off,
for both participants. It’s not hard to see why someone
might be more careful about it than they are about tznius.
If tznius being so important is something that I contest, then
perhaps it is because it’s a huge issue for me (which it is).
If you find something difficult to do, that would of course
give you motivation not to believe in its importance…
(That’s the probable explanation for me and flossing, anyway.)November 10, 2016 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1196316
“lilmod ulelamaid: Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?
Actually, there’s no tznius section of the Shuchan Aruch – rather,
the requirements of tznius are derived from the halachos about
not saying divrei kedusha in the presence of ervah.”
Thanks for the correction. I actually did not know whether or not it was in the SA, so I should not have said that. I knew it was in the MB, so I assumed that it must be in the SA, and I thought that the phrase “an explicit halacha in the SA” sounded better than “an explicit halacha in the MB”
But you are right – I should not have said that w/o knowing for a fact that it is in the SA. Thank you very much for the correction.November 10, 2016 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1196317
“If tznius being so important is something that I contest, then
perhaps it is because it’s a huge issue for me (which it is).”
Your intellectual honesty is astounding!November 11, 2016 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1196318
Can you tell me where that halacha is in the Mishna Berurah, then?November 13, 2016 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1196320Abba_SParticipant
Comlink-X Can you tell me where that halacha is in the Mishna Berurah, then? Try Chapter 75. This is only talking about what you can’t see when praying.November 14, 2016 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1196321
About vitamin D, I forgot that I didn’t always live in a hot sunny place. I used to go to the tanning salon once in a while. When I lived in a rainy cloudy place for a while, I went to a tanning salon more frequently. I get depressed in cold/cloudy/rainy climates.
Tanning salons are not ideal, but if I was totally tznius, at least it is an option.
As for sweating, that’s still something. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that there is a solution to the sunshine vitamin D thing 🙂
—- Also I guess what is most difficult to swallow is that I can basically, theoretically, increase in mitzvot on all fronts. Yet it won’t mean anything or indicate my Yiras Shamayim if I am un-tznius? I thought that each mitzvah has value, big or small we are not the judge of what’s most valuable to Hashem.
Understandable that tznius is the sum of so many mitzvot, and uplifts others. Still, that above paragraph is a little lament.
-Another question: You know that story about that woman who merited something, or saved her husband because she was tznius and the demons stayed away from her?
Does that happen in real life? A stranger stopped to talk to me yesterday. I was un-tznius and that made me feel extra self-conscious. Initially it creeped me out. Then I told myself that he would have spoken to anyone in my position. I just so happened to be the first person that he saw walking when he got out of his car.
Yet… today I wondered if Hashem would have changed things up if I was tznius yesterday. Maybe he would have changed the timing. I wouldn’t have been there at that minute with my dog. This person would have never seen me. I wouldn’t even be talking about this in the CR.
Is that possible or how life works? I know that technically we aren’t supposed to expect anything for performing mitzvot. Hashem doesn’t make our lives easier if we observe His commandments. I’m confused though.
Tznius is meant to strengthen my relationship with Hashem. If so, then what’s that story about that lady about? It’s not just that story. I have other books that say that the entire household’s parnassah and shalom bayis depend on the wife’s tznius.
Is this true? Or am I just overthinking and being paranoid?
Thank youNovember 14, 2016 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1196322
Lightbrite, when I wrote my original post, I had forgotten that you are baalas teshuva/becoming Frum. When I wrote my rant about tznius, I was primarily thinking about BY girls or girls who had a strong Yeshiva education and keep all the other halachos besides covering their knees, and used to cover their knees as well until it became the style to wear short skirts. I am talking about girls who think that if a girl is wearing pants it means that she is off the derech and meanwhile they are walking around in skirts that are far less tznius!
In your case, you didn’t grow up with hilchos tznius (from what I understand) and you didn’t grow up with a lot of other things either. When I worked in Neve Yerushalayim, they were very into telling girls to take things slowly, in baby steps. You are not supposed to take on too much at once!! If you do, it can backfire, chas v’shalom.
I once heard Rav Orlofsky speak about 9/11. He said that Rav Moshe Shapiro told him that it’s part of milchemes Gog U’Magog (the war preceding Mashiach) and that Mashiach is on the way. So he told him that he is working with a boy who is becoming Frum. He asked Rav Moshe Shapiro if he should push him to become Frum faster (since Moshiach might come before he is fully Frum). Rav Moshe Shapiro said “no”. The implication was that the boy is fine where he is – he is on the right path and that is enough.
All Hashem expects from us is to be on the right path. He wants us to grow in healthy, productive ways. In the introduction to Rav Bodner’s Sefer on Hilchos Brachos, there is a foreword by the Manchester Rav (or at least it quotes from him – I don’t remember if the whole thing was from him). He writes about how according to halacha, we are OBLIGATED to have kavana with each word of every bracha we make. This is a HALACHA – it is not a chumra! It is a halacha just like covering your knees is a halacha. But obviously, it is something that is almost impossible for everyone to do.
So he explains that the point is that we need to be on the right path. We have to work on this step by step. As long as we are working on ourselves and we have the goal in mind, that is all Hashem expects of us.
He gives a mashal which I might not be remembering 100%. But basically, a king tells his servant to climb a really high ladder. If the guy gives up and doesn’t even try, then the king will be mad at him. But if he sees that the guy is trying and taking one step at a time, even if it is a slow and lengthy process, he will be pleased with him because he sees that the guy is trying his best to reach the goal.November 14, 2016 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1196323
Regarding the Vitamin D myth, there was an article in the main section of YWN that you may want to read.November 14, 2016 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1196324
Can you tell me where that halacha is in the Mishna Berurah, then?
Try Chapter 75. This is only talking about what you can’t see when praying.
It doesn’t say anything about a chiyuv for women there, Abba_S
(which is what Lilmod Ulelamaid said she knows to be in the M”B).November 14, 2016 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1196325
“If tznius being so important is something that I contest, then
perhaps it is because it’s a huge issue for me (which it is).”
Your intellectual honesty is astounding!
Her personal honesty is what you meant?
integrity?November 14, 2016 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1196326
I have always used the term intellectual honesty in reference to people who can acknowledge where their ideas are coming from, and are open-minded enough to realize that they may be biased and therefore are willing to consider another point of view.
Isn’t that the correct meaning of the term? How would you use it?
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