Fear of Heaven

There’s a difference between “appearance” and “mode of dress”. A woman may have a good “appearance” but will turn some guys off if her dress/skirt is above her knees or shirt/blouse above the elbows.

golfish she obviously quoted only two sentences from the shiur which is bound to sound superficial. Is “for boys learning Torah” not superficial? you don’t know who the shiur was aimed at or what the context was so there’s really no reason to get angry.

With that said I do think that to some extent NOT dressing tzniusly indicates a lack of yiras shomaim. How you dress is a choice like everything else you do.

Tight could be lack of awareness, but I agree with you about short (if it’s clearly too short). In fact, I had written a really long post about that, but it was deleted.

lightbrite & Gofish – While in theory it can be possible that someone is dressing tzniusly simply to conform and it MIGHT be possible to claim that s.o who dresses tzniusly is not acting out of Yiras Shamayim, surely if someone is dressing or acting in a way that is clearly against Halacha, this indicates a LACK of Yiras Hashem. I don’t see how it is possible to say otherwise. If you think so, I would love to hear your reasoning.

Hashem told us that our knees are not allowed to show (not sure if it’s D’Oraisah or D’rabbanan but Hashem told us to keep D’Rabbanans, so it’s still from Hashem either way), and this girl is choosing to wear a skirt that doesn’t cover her knees even when she is standing still. She knows that Hashem said not to do it, and yet, she is doing it. How can that not demonstrate a lack of Yiras Hashem?

Again, if you have an explanation, I would love to hear it. I am assuming of course, that we are talking about someone who is violating a clear-cut halacha of tznius (and not something that is minhag hamakom) and that we are talking about a girl who received a good education and is well aware of hilchos tznius.

I do know girls who don’t dress tzniusly but are wonderful people and have a lot of Emunah and Bitachon and Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Yisrael, but I fail to see how it’s possible to say that their Yiras Shamayim is not lacking. Again, maybe I’m wrong, and if you have a counter-argument, I would be happy to hear it.

Regarding the idea that someone can be dressing tzniusly just because of society, while in theory that can be a possibility, it seems to me that the opposite is much more likely. The societal pressure nowadays is by and large to NOT dress tzniusly. Also, remember that tznius is not just about dress, so even if someone is really lacking Yiras Hashem and is only dressing tzniusly to make an impression but she really is not a “tzniusdik” person, she will find other ways to be untznius, or she will find a way of dressing that conforms to societal expectations but is not really tznius.

Also, regarding societal “pressure” to dress tzniusly, aside from the fact that today that is pretty uncommon, it seems to me that there is always a yetzer hara to not be tznius even if one lives in a time and place where the pressure is to be tznius. On a personal level, I grew up in a time and place where it was more “mekubal” to be tznius than not to be, and by nature, tznius is not my weak point and not something that I generally have to struggle with, BUT I stil remember a few times in my life, when I was nichshal in the area of tznius. So I think it is something that is a nisayon for everyone, and does demonstrate Yiras Hashem.

I know that girls often don’t like hearing things like this (that tznius is so important and demostrates Yiras Hashem, etc.). It seems to me that that is because it is so hard for most girls, but that is exactly why it demostrates Yiras Hashem.

There are many people who learn and lack Yiras Shamayim and many have Yiras Shamayim and don’t learn

Yiras Shamayim is

what you do and what you are when no one is looking.

Those who has burning Yiras Shamayim ,it impels them to go out and change their environment

A Yiras Shomayim is much more important.

Maybe he means that someone who has true Yiras Shamayim will have good middos by definition.

Even if that’s true, it still makes sense to look out more for good middos because it is much harder (if not impossible) to tell if someone has Yiras Shamayim than if they have good middos.

Also, even if in theory, Yiras Shamayim should include middos tovos, I’m not sure if it is necessarily the case l’maaseh. I think that most of the time when Frum people lack good middos it is either because of emotional issues or because of bad chinuch, and having yiras Shamayim doesn’t necessarily help. If someone naturally has a bad middah, it is very, very difficult to change it even with all the Yiras Shamayim in the world.

While I do think that middos tovos is the most important quality to look for in a spouse, I think that one should look for both middos tovos and Yiras Shamayim. If someone has midos Tovos but is lacking Yiras Shamayim, then their middos tovos may be somewhat superficial and they may change if circumstances change. I think that Yiras Shamayim provides a good basis for the middos tovos and ensures that they are likely to stay.

Also, it seems to me that if the person has good middos but you don’t share common goals, there is a danger that the marriage might not last when there are difficulties. But if you share common goals (meaning, you are both true Ovdei Hashem who got married l’sheim Shamayim), the marriage has more of a foundation and is more likely to withstand difficulties.

So bottom-line, I think that good middos are more important, but it is important to have both.

Lightbrite: I love the way you always have positive things to say to fellow posters even when you don’t necessarily agree with them!

“Why is this person tznius? Why is this person not tznius? There are details that make it complicated sometimes.”

If you are talking about “grey” areas of tznius and things that you are not sure if they are tznius or not, that is an entirely different topic. I took your opening post at face value and assumed that we were talking about things that are clearly untznius and against halacha.

“Aren’t there women that are makpid on TM who on the outside are not so tznius?”

I’m sure there are, but:

1. Therefore, what? There may be people who are mechalel Shabbos but are very makpid on Kashrus. They are still being mechalel Shabbos. I’m not sure what your point is? TM and Tznius are two different Mitzvos; they are keeping one and not the other.

2. I don’t know which of the two is more important. They are both Mitzvos and both must be kept. It is possible that TM is more important; it’s also possible tznius is. I have no idea. BUT, one VERY important difference between tznius and most other Mitzvos is that when someone dresses untzniusly, she is causing others to sin and causing others to go to Gehenom. I find that many of the girls who dress untzniusly are very sweet girls who would not willingly hurt other people. They clearly don’t realize what they are doing, since they would not do it if they did. THAT is what is so upsetting to me when I see girls dressed untzniusly. If they had any clue what they were doing, they would not do it.

Lightbrite, I also wanted to point out an important difference that occurred to me between tznius and most other Mitzvos. This may be one of the reasons why it is considered so crucial, and why it is considered to epitimoze what a Bas Yisrael is about.

The fact is that the way you are dressed is both a constant and something that is clearly visible to all those whom you come into contact with. If a girl puts on a short skirt in the morning, she will be wearing a short skirt the ENTIRE day. When she davens, when she does chesed, when she goes on the bus, wherever and whatever she is doing, she is doing it while wearing her short skirt. Furthermore, this is something very noticeable to whoever comes into contact with her in the course of the day, and will probably be one of the first things they notice about her. Because, yes, a person’s chitzonius is the first things you notice about them!

Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?

Lightbrite- thank you for sharing your perspective. It honestly never occurred to me that tznius could be so difficult for someone who is as much of a “bas aliya” as you seem to be.

I know you said you don’t want solutions, but I would like to point out that the idea that dressing tzniusly causes Vitamin D deficiencies is a very controversial one. My brother who is not Frum and is a medical school graduate said that it is ridiculous and you can get enough Vitamin D from being outside for 20 minutes while dressed tzniusly. Also, my doctor who very much believes in the Vitamin D deficiency thing, told me that it is very controversial and most of her colleagues disagree with her on it. My brother explained that the reason why so many people are supposedly lacking Vitamin D nowadays is because they raised the amount of Vitamin D that they decided people should have, but there was no real reason for that.

In terms of your other reasons, it is hard for me to understand why it is so difficult, but I don’t have to understand. I don’t find it so difficult; you do. I guess different people find different things difficult.

You said that you don’t want solutions, and I am not sure that I have any anyhow. You are right that Hashem does not want us to get depressed. All I can do is to give you a bracha that you should find a way to grow in tznius without getting depressed.

I know you don’t want solutions, but maybe you should try taking small steps or setting up a reward system for yourself (or with others if that makes it easier).

You definitely sound to me like a real bas aliyah and someone who does have Yiras Shamayim and is always trying to grow, so I wish you a lot of hatzlacha and continued growth.

To all you cliche people complaining about how u can’t judge fear of God ON a woman’s appearance…I feel like you’re lying to yourselves. The same way if you saw a girl who had holes in Jr tights and dirty clothing and knotty unkempt hair and smelled bad you would automatically assume that she’s either slow, poor, abused at home….etc the same way you can judge a girl by her appearance. To some extent of course because there will always be the people that hide their true unstable insides…but most of the time ita detectable in their appearance doesn’t. No one should make it their business to judge people to begin with…but you shouldn’t complain cause I’m sure we have all judged

Lightbrite – First of all, Kol hakavod! it sounds like you are doing a great job with working on tznius! I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of “living a double life”. You are working on things one step at a time, just as we are supposed to. If that is called “living a double life” then we all live double lifes! We all have Yetzer tovs and yetzer hara’s. That is how Hashem created us and how we are meant to be. We are constantly battling our yetzer haras. Sometimes we give in more, and sometimes less.

I heard a really amazing story that I was reminded of when I read Person1’s first point. There was a kid-at-risk who was struggling very hard to get back on track. One Shabbos, he was trying very hard not to smoke. He went one hour, two hours, three hours, and then four hours, it was too hard for him, and he gave in to his yetzer hara. He got really depressed, and he spoke to his Rebbe or mentor about it. His Rebbe said to him, “I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll take the gehinnom you would get for smoking on Shabbos. But, only on one condition. You must give me the Gan Eden you have coming to you for not smoking on Shabbos for four hours.”

I thought that was a beautiful story and one you should keep in mind, Lightbrite.

ps: I’m not trying to say that you are necessarily going to gehinom for the times you don’t dress tzniusly. I don’t know Hashem’s cheshbonos, and I don’t want you to get the wrong message from the story. Just trying to counteract some of the prior fire and brimstone messages.

Have you tried reading “Outside Inside” by Gila Manolson? She discusses the reasons to be tznius, and she has a very positive approach that I think you would like.

lilmod ulelamaid: Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?

Actually, there’s no tznius section of the Shuchan Aruch – rather,

the requirements of tznius are derived from the halachos about

not saying divrei kedusha in the presence of ervah.

Abba_S: Likewise someone who works has a lot to lose in a divorce and so is less likely to divorce and if there is one will give a get in fear of financial penalties, while a learner has no incentive to stay in the marriage or give a get as it’s all his wife’s money.

A. Do we now choose who to marry based on how hard it would be to get a divorce out of them, and/or how statistically likely they are, given their potential finances, to divorce you?

B. Wouldn’t he want to keep that money?

C. To get remarried (for more money?), he’d need to give a get.)

D. Divorce is not known as a positive experience.

Is that not incentive enough?

“lilmod ulelamaid: Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?

Actually, there’s no tznius section of the Shuchan Aruch – rather,

the requirements of tznius are derived from the halachos about

not saying divrei kedusha in the presence of ervah.”

Thanks for the correction. I actually did not know whether or not it was in the SA, so I should not have said that. I knew it was in the MB, so I assumed that it must be in the SA, and I thought that the phrase “an explicit halacha in the SA” sounded better than “an explicit halacha in the MB”

But you are right – I should not have said that w/o knowing for a fact that it is in the SA. Thank you very much for the correction.

Can you tell me where that halacha is in the Mishna Berurah, then?

Regarding the Vitamin D myth, there was an article in the main section of YWN that you may want to read.

“If tznius being so important is something that I contest, then

perhaps it is because it’s a huge issue for me (which it is).”

Your intellectual honesty is astounding!

???

Her personal honesty is what you meant?

integrity?