females drinking

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  • #601006

    skiaddict
    Member

    How come its so taboo for females to be drinking? I mean, the men, bochurim drink all the time, and its really fine. But i would never admit that i drink, and i know a lot of women wouldnt. So why not? Why is it fine for men and not women?

    #834134

    golden mom
    Member

    same with smoking if a man smokes …but a women who smokes is like omg she probably not frum ??????

    #834135

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s not fine for men. Drinking in excess is Halachically wrong no matter what your gender. But there is a Gemara in Kesubos that says that bad things occur when a woman drinks (though it says that if she’s used to it that she’s fine).

    #834136

    golden mom
    Member

    if its bad then what do u mean if shes used to it she had to drink to get used to it doesnt make sense

    #834137

    Sam2
    Participant

    Golden Mom: There is nothing wrong with a woman drinking a bit together with her husband in the confines of her home.

    #834138

    Jothar
    Member

    Firstly, there is the gemara that women drinking results in growing mustaches. Secondly, drunk women hurt their babies (smothering them by rolling over them and not hearing the cries, etc).

    #834139

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Jothar.

    You did not need a second reason. lol The “Firstly” should do the trick.

    #834140

    soliek
    Member

    “It’s not fine for men. Drinking in excess is Halachically wrong no matter what your gender”

    who said anything about drinking in excess…

    #834141

    dvorak
    Member

    Because all frum women are either pregnant or nursing at any given time and therefore shouldn’t be drinking 🙂

    In all seriousness though, it’s probably a tznius thing- people do stupid things when they drink too much, which for a woman would be considered un-tznius. Although really, no one, male or female, should ever be drinking to the point of acting stupid.

    For the record, I do drink, but only wine, and not more than 2 glasses at a time. I even drink while pregnant or nursing, but only a little little bit- doctor says it’s fine.

    #834142

    skiaddict
    Member

    Yeah, same about smoking, but WHY??????

    #834143

    Toi
    Participant

    sotah.

    #834144

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We’re afraid they would come home drunk and beat their husbands.

    #834145

    Sam2
    Participant

    Dvorak: Your doctor said WHAT??? I would consider getting a new doctor.

    #834146

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Sam2: Actually, it IS okay to drink with moderation while pregnant.

    #834147

    mommamia22
    Participant

    When I was dating, if a guy ordered a glass of wine on a date (except in celebration of something) I’d think it odd and wonder if he had a drinking problem. So, I’m not so sure I’d think it’s ok for a guy either. What’s wrong with grape juice? At most a fruity light wine like moscato d’asti I could see on a rare ocassion, but more than that?? Strange to me.

    #834148

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    oneofmany, if its ok to drink in moderation why do my profs tell us NO alcohol during pregnancy?

    (copied from pubmed health)” When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, it easily passes across the placenta to the fetus. Because of this, drinking alcohol can harm the baby’s development.

    A pregnant woman who drinks any amount of alcohol is at risk for having a child with fetal alcohol syndrome. No “safe” level of alcohol use during pregnancy has been established. Larger amounts of alcohol appear to increase the problems……

    Timing of alcohol use during pregnancy is also important. Alcohol use appears to be the most harmful during the first 3 months of pregnancy However, drinking alcohol any time during pregnancy can be harmful”

    #834149

    oomis
    Participant

    Firstly, there is the gemara that women drinking results in growing mustaches. “

    Isn’t that supposed to be what happens when a woman drinks the HAVDALAH wine?

    I think women who drink hard liquor (except for an occasional mixed cocktail like a pina colada, at a simcha, or a glass of wine) tend to look a little trashy and unrefined. I know it sounds very chauvinistic, but it’s how I feel. I don’t much care for guys who get drunk, either, but when a woman gets smashed it is SO much worse. I think the tznius aspect does become an issue. Drinking lowers our inhibitions.

    #834151

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What’s wrong with grape juice?

    It isn’t intoxicating.

    (Seriously though, wondering if a guy has a drinking problem because he orders a glass of wine is like wondering if he has an eating disorder because he passes on dessert.)

    #834152

    there are guys who will pass on dessert?

    #834153

    mommamia22
    Participant

    The only people I know who do drink during the week do have a drinking problem. So, although I get your comparison, I’m speaking from personal experience (not everyone).

    #834154

    winny1
    Participant

    “Drinking lowers our inhibitions”. Yes but it also can help one fall asleep. It can also have ‘medicinal qualities’. Like anything else it depends how it is used and in what quantity.

    #834155

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The Gemara (Kesubos 65a) is clear that in principle there is nothing wrong with women drinking.

    It says that when a woman’s husband passes away, and her kesubah guarantees her right to be supported from his estate, we allow her money for wine, if she is used to it. The Gemara brings stories from a few notable individuals whose wives this applied to.

    One of the stories is quite interesting, but it’s not for here.

    #834156

    squeak
    Participant

    ” oomis1105 Member

    Firstly, there is the gemara that women drinking results in growing mustaches. “

    Isn’t that supposed to be what happens when a woman drinks the HAVDALAH wine?”

    Give that woman a cigar!

    Oh. Oops.

    #834157

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The only people I know who do drink during the week do have a drinking problem.

    Wow. I know lots of people who drink during the week. And I don’t know anyone who has a drinking problem (anyone at all).

    Maybe we hang out in different crowds, or maybe we define drinking problem differently.

    I define it as having an addiction, which is a technical term used by psychologists, and I think refers to a certain type of dependency which is caused by emotional or chemical needs.

    #834158

    takingabreak
    Participant

    to the last comment, the gemara says that more than 1 cup of wine is halachacally problematic.where the gemara talks about a widow it mentions wine for cooking. drinking is a very different issue

    #834159

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    yentingyenta: Dunno about your professors, but I have several pregnant friends and their docs all told them it’s okay in strictly limited quantities. Like kiddush wine. Your professor and their doctors can duke it out, if you’d like.

    #834160

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    oneofmany, if their doctors OK it, thats fine by me. the problem with school is they have to teach you ‘the books’ and not what’s done in real life.

    #834161

    mdd
    Member

    Yitay, drey nit ken kup — the Gemora in Kesuvos does say that drinking by women leads to problems.

    #834162

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta – “oneofmany, if its ok to drink in moderation why do my profs tell us NO alcohol during pregnancy?”

    Your professors are correct.

    “oneofmany, if their doctors OK it, thats fine by me. the problem with school is they have to teach you ‘the books’ and not what’s done in real life.”

    Don’t sell your profession short because s/o disagrees!

    “OneOfMany -yentingyenta: Dunno about your professors, but I have several pregnant friends and their docs all told them it’s okay in strictly limited quantities. Like kiddush wine. Your professor and their doctors can duke it out, if you’d like.”

    Now your post is problematic -if you mean a taste from the Kiddush wine -I doubt that would affect the fetus; OTOH if you mean a few ounces – it might.

    From Emedicine:

    “With regard to pregnancy, fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading known cause of mental retardation (1 in 1000 births). More than 2000 infants annually are born with this condition in the United States. Alcohol-related birth defects and neurodevelopmental problems are estimated to be 3 times higher. Even small amounts of alcohol consumption may be risky in pregnancy. A 2001 study by Sood et al reported that children aged 6-7 years whose mothers consumed alcohol even in small amounts had more behavioral problems.[11] In a study from 2003, Baer et al showed that moderate alcohol consumption while pregnant resulted in a higher incidence of offspring problem drinking at age 21 years, even after controlling for family history and other environmental factors.[12] All women who are pregnant or planning to become pregnant should avoid alcohol.”

    Bottom line is – Drinking is a No-No! Tasting shouldn’t be a problem.

    #834163

    mommamia22
    Participant

    Drinking problem: someone who turns to alcohol to cope. Those I know typically don’t stop at a third or half a cup but can polish off half a bottle or more at a sitting. This is not a scientific definition but one based upon personal observation and opinion. I don’t know many with this problem, but, then again, I don’t know many who whip out the wine mid-week for anything.

    If one can sip a little for flavor, ok, maybe.

    Alcoholism is an addiction. Think of smoking. If someone does it recreationally, they’re teaching their bodies to get used to the nicotine and may have to fight wanting more. So too with drinking. It’s a pandora’s box. Why open it??

    #834164

    Sam2
    Participant

    MDD: The Gemara there (which I referred to at the top) clearly says it leads to problems unless she was used to it from her time with her husband.

    #834165

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I think it’s disgusting (for anyone) to get drunk. That’s why drunks throw up. UCH!

    btw, anyone crossing the PB-Kensington border, gets a nightly view of after-effects. A newly formed group called Occupy Rosner’s!

    #834166

    Jothar
    Member

    btguy, lol!

    #834167

    mommamia22
    Participant

    Ironic that an incident just came up in the news about DWI in the frum community.

    #834168

    mewho
    Participant

    i do not drink nor do i smoke but i cannot understand why smoking is not permitted in restaurants, movie theaters, parks and other places yet drinking is .

    drinking is just as dangerous for health as smoking is. not every smoker gets cancer or emphysema, not every drinker get cirhossis of the liver .

    HOEWEVER……..drinking and driving can definetly cause an accident while i dont see the same from smoking and driving unless you drop the cigarette under your butt (no pun intended)

    #834169

    SaysMe
    Member

    because of second and third hand smoke

    #834170

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    health, there’s a few reasons i wrote what i wrote

    1-its not my patient. if it was, i’d be telling her not to drink

    2-these doctors obviously have more experience than me

    3-i’m not even an RN yet. i don’t have an opinion, only when i’m on clinicals. so PERSONALLY, if you listen to your doctor thats fine with me

    #834171

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Alcoholism is an addiction. Think of smoking. If someone does it recreationally, they’re teaching their bodies to get used to the nicotine and may have to fight wanting more. So too with drinking.

    Momommia: Yes, alcoholism is an addiction. However, it is very different from smoking. Nicotine causes a chemical addiction, while alcohol does not, as I am aware.

    In any event, your definition seems pretty correct. But, I drink a beer or two almost every day, and I think it is fine.

    #834172

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta -“2-these doctors obviously have more experience than me”

    Even if you were a licensed RN with more experience -you would still have to listen to them because they are the Docs!

    My point to you was don’t believe everything s/o says or posts. In this case the docs probably just said like I posted -just a taste. But you backed down from the poster as soon as she/he posted that docs disagree. When you start getting orders in medicine -if something doesn’t feel right or you know it’s not right -it’s your job to question!

    Just some free neighborly advice!

    #834173

    Sam2
    Participant

    If it were up to me, I would Pasken Halacha Lema’aseh that someone who gets behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated has the Din of a Rodeph. Saying driving under the influence is dangerous is so much of an understatement that saying so is gross negligence. It’s attempted murder, nothing less.

    #834174

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, the Gemora is clear that being used to it helps only partially.

    #834175

    Half
    Member

    I don’t really have time and patience to read through all of these posts at this point in time, however there is nowhere in the torah that I know of that women drink/smoke. we are ment to replicate our Imohos as much as possible. it’s an undignified behaviour and absolutely not befitting for a bas melech to behave in such a manner.

    #834176

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    There is no reference in the torah to women driving cars/going to school/posting on online forums either…nu?

    #834177

    Sam2
    Participant

    MDD: I do not recall that but I will look at it again soon B”N.

    #834178

    Nechomah
    Participant

    OneOfMany – Alcohol has been around since the beginning – Noach got drunk on wine, so it’s not fair to compare things that were not around at the time of the Imohos and say why didn’t they do this, that or the other. But, there are people who would say that women driving cars is unrefined (many rabbonim in EY don’t let), posting in online forums is unrefined and dangerous to your neshoma (how many rabbonim assur internet from home?), and then there’s the issue of going to school, which for girls has only existed for the last hundred years, so to what should we compare it to for the previous 5600+ years? …Nu?

    #834179

    Half
    Member

    Akiva’s wife, Rochel rode a cammel,-cars weren’t around in those days.supported her family by learning a skill-schools weren’t around in those times, While her husband learned torah. and chatted with friends whilst in her lonely hours-the internet wasn’t around in those times either.

    the phenomina of smoking wasn’t around either in those times, as far as I know. however drinking was, and it was only heard of for the males. is there any famale in the torah that would drink???? no, because It just wasn’t dignified for a woman to do so. and I think that would be the same answer for the smoking if it was around then.

    #834180

    miritchka
    Member

    Its quite a coincidence that i foudn this thread now. I was just met a friend who lives in another state and she told me how its so weird how the women in her neighborhood drink liquor and wine like any other drink! I guess it depends on where you live, or how long you want to live…

    #834181

    it’s probably like most things: ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????

    #834182

    dvorak
    Member

    Hi guys, I’m the one who posted that I drink occasionally while pregnant with the doctor’s permission. I was told 1 glass of wine per week is OK. Basically, you need to drink quite a lot to actually cause fetal alcohol syndrome. However, doctors have to cater to the lowest common denominator- the people who drink 3 cocktails a day, who, if you tell them “a little bit is fine”, are going to say OK, so I’ll cut it down to 2 cocktails a day. Also, since no one is about to actually subject pregnant women to studies to actually find the line, they err on the side of caution and say no alcohol at all. Most experienced OB’s if you press them will admit that a little bit is fine and will cite the 1-2 glasses per week rule.

    Also, whoever is saying that drinking every day is not normal is clearly an ignorant American. My parents are European and they pretty much always have a glass of wine with dinner, it’s completely normal. I grew up with that, and from the time I was 14 or 15, was allowed some wine with dinner too. And yes, my European mother also drank a little during her pregnancies.

    I know this is only anecdotal, but me, my siblings, and my kids are B’H all perfectly fine.

    #834183

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    health, IRL, i have questioned doctors orders, to them directly. in this case, there wasnt a doctor to question, just the word of another poster

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