Feud between Chabad & Breslov

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  • #1351397

    K-cup
    Participant

    Part of my family is Chabad, and different members of my family have told me that historically Chabad and Breslov don’t like each other. I have heard this from other Chabad chasidim as well, but no one really had a clear answer as to why or when this tension started. Anyone ever heard this? I know the Baal Hatanya ruffled some feathers among early Chasidim, but that’s not unique to Breslov.

    #1351483

    jakob
    Participant

    sure they don’t like each other, cause chabad believes they are the 1st & only ones worldwide doing kiruv all over in every tiny town while in truth Breslov also does kiruv just in a different way-through chizuk stories of kiruv with rav nachman & other ways etc…

    chabad also hates all the fame of breslov in uman for yomim noraim & wish chabad can get the same popularity & fame for their living rebbe forever

    no i’m not breslov or Chabad, neither do i have any Rebba when i need help i go & call straight to Hashem from my heart. karov Hashem lchol….. as the mussar seforim say, when you depend on 2 things i.e. Hashem & a rebba also then you lose both, so who do you choose can help you more Hashem the ruler of all worlds or a Rebba? decide on your own & let Hashem know, he loves you & is waiting for you to call out to him from your heart for ANYTHING you need help

    Hatzlacha

    #1351502

    BisBoy
    Participant

    Translation from Slonim book. If I could upload a photo I would.

    Translation: When I was in Lubavitch, and was eating at the house of the Rebbe Rashab, the Rebbetzin Rivka told me that Rebbe Nachman of Breslov had trouble with the Misnagdim. However, he was also suffering especially from the Chassidim who were against him, except Rebbe Levi Yitzchok of Barditchov, who was on his side. The Alter Rebbe, for his part, voiced his own holy opinion,”I am not like those who only support Rebbe Nachman, rather I and him are one and the same. Whoever messes with Rebbe Nachman messes with me.”

    Translated by Dovid B. Kaplan.

    #1351583

    Joseph
    Participant

    Which Dovid B. Kaplan?

    #1351585

    K-cup
    Participant

    I saw that quote and translation on Facebook from D Kaplan and r markel. I don’t know if you saw it there, but many comments mentioned that they were surprised, because Chabad and Breslov don’t like each other.

    #1351710

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    I never even knew that chabad and breslov suppose each other I love breslov and hold highly of them especially the ื  ื ื—s are so amazing and filled with so much positive energy I find them very I think the are great

    #1351711

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Chaverim kol Yisroel??

    #1351730

    yytz
    Participant

    I don’t think there’s any real phenomenon of Breslov and Chabad not liking each other. I’ve heard that about other chassiduses, but not them. In fact, the Ba’al haTanya and Rebbe Nachman knew each other and supported each other, and I think one of them even predicted (correctly, it turned out a few generations later) that their descendants would marry. The 5th or 6th Chabad rebbe (I forget which) was known to regularly study Likutei Moharan, a significant number of Chabadniks go to Uman for Rosh HaShana, and the Rebbe himself was very warm toward the Breslov chassidim he interacted with. Many people (not just the Chavakuk types) study both Breslov and Chabad chassidus.

    #1351991

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Yytz; What are the Chavakuk types?

    #1351945

    K-cup
    Participant

    Ive got some clarification. Historically Chabad and Breslov we’re in good terms like many of you have pointed out. Breslovers, particularly in Israel distanced themselves a lot ( to be kind) from Chabad during the heights of the “yechi” days. I heard from a Chabad chasid living in Israel that even the na nachs mocked lubavaitch and were more respected than Chabad. Starting from the 70’s, and I would personally guess it’s better now. But some Lubavaitchers haven’t forgiven Breslov who are also sort of outsiders

    #1352092

    chabadgal
    Participant

    jakob- chabad doesnt do kiruv, we do shlichus. kiruv means bringing close whats far and we dont believe that any jew is far.

    #1352196

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    @chabadgal exactly and we also don’t force them be frum

    #1352901

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    770Chabad; Does anyone force them to be frum?
    Chabadgal; So how would you define Shlichus?
    Messengers? To do what? Which Mitzvah?

    #1352928

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    The mitzvah of loving a fellow Jew for who they are and not for who they will be

    #1352950

    yytz
    Participant

    Shlichus (and mivtzoim) are just the Chabad terms for their version of outreach, or kiruv as it’s called among most Jews. (The Rebbe objected to the term kiruv for the reason chabadgal mentions.) They don’t put any pressure on people or try to convince them Yiddishkeit is true, but instead just teach and serve as inspiring examples and hope that people are motivated to make their own decisions to take on more mitzvos. Breslov tends to use the term hafatza instead of kiruv.

    Some non-Chabad, especially Litvish, kiruv rabbis are known to be a little more high-pressure, trying to convince people logically that Torah is true and getting them into BT yeshivas that help them quickly become completely frum. Still, not even they “force” people to be frum, which is impossible anyway.

    #1352955

    motchah11
    Participant

    Breslov believes “der gantzer velt Breslov.” Chabad believes that the only Chassidus is Chabad and when Moshiach comes everyone will become Lubavitch.
    How can they NOT conflict?

    #1352962

    mentsch1
    Participant

    I know a lot of chabadnicks
    I also know a lot Breslevors
    as far as I know they love all fellow jews
    which is more than i can say about this thread

    #1352964

    K-cup
    Participant

    Shlichus seems to me to be entirely different than what most people call kiruv. It’s nothing like Aish, or Ohr Sameyach, Gateways, ect. Shluchim do some kiruv, but really they’re extreme volunteers that do things for people including teaching and kiruv.

    #1352991

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    That’s right we also say Hareini Mikabel at the start of daavening

    #1353070

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Simple:
    Breslev = Not Chabad.
    Chabad doesn’t like any frum group who aren’t Chabad.
    Therefore, by the transitive property, Chabad doesn’t like Breslev.

    I’m sure it’s amplified by the fact that Breslev also practices kiruv. Before people go trying to “prove me wrong” by talking about how nice Chabad is to fried out yidden, when have you heard them speak highly of Litvaks? Or of other kiruv groups like Aish and company?

    I certainly am not anti-Lubavitch; we all have our issues. But, the idea that a group MUST have done something to earn Chabad’s scorn is totally out of line.

    #1353072

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    U have no idea what you are talking about how abou go read level ืœื‘ of Tanya it’s all about โ€ืื”ื‘ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ that’s the heart (ืœื‘) of the Tanya go read it and come back to me and tell me what u have to say because Chabad loves everyone and we accept them for who they are

    #1353074

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Motcha11:
    I don’t know where you get the mesorah that the Rebbe, Z’TL, taught his chassidim that all yidden, Litvish, misnagdim, other chassidus etc. will magically become Lubavitch at the time of z’man moishiach. Somehow the visuals of the BMG crowd in Lakewood and Skver from monsey joining hands on Eastern Parkway and waving yellow flags saying “Welcome Rebbe Moishiach” are a bit difficult to internalize.

    #1353075

    Avi K
    Participant

    The fact of the matter is that Breslov was outed by all of the other Chassidic groups because of very puzzling statements attributed to Rabbi Nachman (he did not write any of his books – they were written in his name by his talmid Reb Natan). Among the charges were deviating form what had become traditional Chassidic views, thinking that he was Mashiach and claiming that he was greater than Moshe Rabbenu. Today the problem is magnified because anyone can call himself a Breslover and some subgroups have engaged in extremely questionable activities. While this is also true of Chabad to a certain extent they at least have an official bet din and organization which are very strong within the movement.

    #1353080

    ThinkingCap
    Participant

    Wise people focus on the Avoda ofusing their talents to illuminate, they respect each person as an individual. Feuds have no place in their life for all feuds do is interfere with such Avoda.

    #1353129

    chabadgal
    Participant

    Neville you have no clue what your talking about. Chabad doesnt hate anyone. Thats the basis of chabad to love every jew equally

    #1353077

    assurnet
    Participant

    Never heard of this feud before… the idea of it sounds like a bit of a joke. Rebbe Nachman and the Alter Rebbe of Chabad were close friends and supporters of each other. When Napoleon invaded Russia all the Chassidishe rebbes came out in support of him while Rebbe Nachman and the Alter Rebbe were the only two Rebbes to side with the Litvaks on the side of the czar. This came in handy after the invasion was unsuccessful and the czar wanted to exile all chassidim – they were able to show that some chassidim had stayed politically loyal to him.

    The Alter Rebbe once told Rebbe Nachman, “You are the Baal Shem Tov’s physical great grandson – I’m his spiritual one” As another poster mentioned the Alter Rebbe defended Rebbe Nachman against his detractors and conversely the Tanya was among the sefarim that Rebbe Nachman encouraged his chassidim to learn.

    Fun side note – in Ramot there is a chabad minyan on shabbat that is at least 30-50% Breslovers and there’s a Chabad minyan with their own huge tent in Uman on Rosh Hashana.

    #1353151

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    @chabadgal
    Haters will always hate
    Lovers will always love
    Chabad loves and accepts everyone for who they are and we will never ever hate or discriminate against anyone and we believe ื—ืกื™ื“ื™ื ืื™ื™ืŸ ืžืฉืคื—ื” …..

    #1353156

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    โ€œYou shall love your fellow as yourself,โ€ with regard to every Jew both great and small โ€” in spiritual stature.( As for the Talmudic statement that if one sees his friend sinning, he should hate him, and should also relate the fact to his teacher so that he too will hate him ) so to all the haters out there are you just jealous!!!!????? We don’t hate and that’s it !

    #1353177

    yytz
    Participant

    Uncle Ben, Chavakuk refers to people who don’t belong to a single chassidus but instead focus on studying Breslov and Chabad chassidus, as well as the teachings of Rav Kook. (Sometimes people include Carlebach in there too.) Popular among some dati leumi in the West Bank. Similar to “neo-chassidus” discussed recently among ba’alei teshuvah in the US.

    Avi K, Rebbe Nachman never claimed to be moshiach or greater than Moshe Rabbeinu. People accused him of saying things he never said. At first he had a lot of opposition but for the last few generations Breslovers have been accepted as mainstream charedi Jews.

    Breslov is less centralized than other groups because Rebbe Nachman didn’t believe in hereditary rebbes. So there are a number of groups. All are basically normal frum Jews, though one (very visible but small in numbers, probably less than 1% of Breslovers) group is a bit different…

    #1353178

    z
    Participant

    All of Chasidus is against Breslov. Slonim Karlin, Belz… The believe you can have a Rebbe in Shamim. The call him Rabbenu. The believe that he will save you. This is sounds like another religion. In Russia if husband was found to be learning the Sefarim it was encouraged that the wife ask a Get. Elu V’Elu does not apply to Breslov .

    #1353182

    hml
    Participant

    I am Chabad and I have NEVER heard of any animosity between Chabad and Breslov… on the contrary. I know a number of Chabadnikim who go every RH to Uman ; the numbers were so large last year, they have their own tent for davening (according to our nusach.)

    As for Shluchim: Jakob, are you prepared to take the place of my daughter, her husband & 6 kids in Slovakia? Are you going to travel 6 hours each way in really harsh winters to do a Tahara on an altere Yid? Or to sit with a family & beg the goyishe wife not to cremate her husband? Are you going to travel from shetl to shtetl, to places like Tarnow, Nitra, towns that were once Makom Torah & now have less than a minyan, to bring them lulav and esrog?

    Just wondering: would your children prefer to study online because there aren’t any schools? How about sending your daughter overseas for HS because Online School stops at 8th grade? Are you happy your kids have friends outside their siblings? How about having to make everything yourself or import truckloads of stuff from UK & store it in a commercial freezer in another city?

    The list goes on. And let’s not forget the tourists who go to them, schnorr a beautiful Shabbos meal, yet talk about Chabad as you do? You all know where to turn when there’s a problem in Peru, or Nepal, or Wyoming.

    I hope your Din V’cheshbon includes the anti-Chabad rhetoric you and others like you spew on a frequent basis.

    #1353210

    K-cup
    Participant

    To Neville Chaimberlin: I was looking for what Chabad or Breslov says the reason is, that certainly doesn’t mean it’s correct or even grounded in reality. However, the idea that a demographic would just show “scorn” with no proclaimed reason is completely absurd. The “Chabad doesn’t like anyone” response is frankly insulting to my ability to discern a few interactions and comments I may have had vs real Chabad culture, history and sociology.
    I have heard Chabad Shluchim speak highly of Aish and Hillel, and know they work together. It nice to hear you’re not antichabad

    #1353223

    Warrior
    Participant

    Sorry Mr 770Chabad. You can deny all you want and try persuading all you want,but the fact of the matter is that chabad does NOT accept or respect any other minhagim other than their own. And please dont bring up the Rebbe’s ways since you are not the Rebbe and neither are all the other chabadnicks, who only “follow” the Rebbe when it is comfortable for them. And before you attack me for being anti -chabad or even better a “misnaged” ( a word you guys cant use enough), I have known chabad my whole life and have even lived in Crown Heights for several years. The hatred that they spew out against other Yidden is shocking. The only thing is they try to cover it up by showing how kind they are to Yidden who have almost no Yiddishkeit, which allows them to bash everyone else. Not one farbrengen goes by without several mentions and jokes bad mouthing “litvaks” or “misnagdim”. You cannot sit at a persons Shabbos table without hearing an “inspirational story” of how when a litvish chazan cries on Yom Kippur he is doing so in order to impress the crowd, but when a chossid cries, it is because he means it, and that is the difference between us chassidim and those misnagdim (snags). Wow thats a lot of Ahavas Yisrael. And you know what else, they dont repsect any other Gedolim unless they maybe had some connection with a Chabad Rebbe in the past, and they dont respect anyone who has not PROVED themselves to be a “friend” of chabad. This is despicable, everyone is guilty of hating chabad unless they showed some type of closeness to chabad. You guys think that everywhere outside of Crown Heights, Yidden are sitting and talking about how much they hate chabad. Newsflash! WE have much better things to do such as focus on Torah than talking about chabad. Noone even brings up the subject cause nobody cares. But when you are in Crown Heights its like, wait does this person like chabad? Is this person close to chabad? Thats the first question in order to know if that person is chabad approved or not. To chabad a Jew who doesnt have chassidus(Tanya) does not have Yiddishkeit, and any Torah and mitzvos they do is worthless. Everyone should learn Torah from chabad but it cannot be the other way around. You know what, you should probably focus on your own off the derechs and “modern dressed” women than on other Frum Jews who can probably give you some tips on ben adam lehavairo. Why dont you focus on Chabad BT’s who are treated as second class citizens who noone wants anything to do with, after you lure them in deceptively convincing them that they will be just as accepted as any other Lubavitcher. That is the furthest from the truth. You pick up BT’s to become chabad and once they are in you throw them away to the wolves and offer them only the most incompatible shidduchim ever which is why so many of them are so lost.

    #1353240

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Warrior
    Focus on the positive stuff

    #1353250

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Hml only when they get stranded somewhere without anything and who will come save them ? Us we will provide food money lodging and anything else the person needs without expecting a cent back …

    #1353253

    Warrior
    Participant

    770Chabad- Im just saying, lets not be delusional. Everyone has flaws. And to pretend that you have none and are just there to fix everyone elses is quite humorous. As well as disrespecting everyone else and using the “we only do it because everyone hates us” excuse.

    #1353264

    Warrior
    Participant

    Don’t worry. Shluchim get tons of money from non chabad people so don’t feel bad for helping out those who get stranded. Especially pandering to those who they are mekarev in exchange for handsome donations.

    #1353279

    “U have no idea what you are talking about how abou go read level ืœื‘ of Tanya itโ€™s all about โ€ืื”ื‘ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ thatโ€™s the heart (ืœื‘) of the Tanya go read it and come back to me and tell me what u have to say because Chabad loves everyone and we accept them for who they are ”

    That may be nice but I live in a very large Chabad community and they do not give the other frum people the time of day. We have ten frum families on our block who all play together and come to each others houses and the two Chabad families keep to themselves. They don’t join the other kids and don’t even know our names. The Chabad families never show up to any community events and are not even familiar with the names of some of our city’s prominent rabbeim. I have never understood why they will not mingle with any other frum people or why they keep themselves away from us but even when I asked I never got a direct answer.
    Frankly I think it’s pretty sad. So you can say all you want about accepting everyone and not hating anyone, but when you have a school of 150 people who couldn’t give you the name of the frum families on their blocks that is not achdus, love or anything of the sort.

    #1353320

    Warrior
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma- Isn’t it obvious why they don’t mix with other frum Yidden? They dont want the children to learn their “evil Misnagdishe ways”. They also will not participate in any non chabad events since they feel superior and most likely these non chabad event will likely be anti-chabad in their minds.

    #1353323

    warrior – thank you for responding (kind of) but I was asking what their own reasoning was for segregating themselves and their kids from the other frum families in the community.

    #1353342

    twisted
    Participant

    I have a Chabad bloodline running through me, and though I was on a Litvishe Brisker traectory, I hobnobbed at 770 in my youth. It struck me to see Morracan/Israeli rechokin that were chabadnikized, thinking that it would be a greater hashovas aveda to restore their native mesorah, as Rav Ruderman had done. I had an unfortunate argument with a big-wig on the nusach at the chupah of a sefardi chatan/lubavich kalla. His answer was lo khalacha and his arrogance was off the charts, Years later the ืžื›ื™ืŸ ืžืฆืขื“ื™ ื’ื‘ืจ placed me as a baal koreh at a chabbad minyan. It would seem, that at least in public, there is no creativity, no original thought, as every discourse starts with “The Rebbe says”. It is sad to see Torah learning stunted in service of a narrative.

    #1353354

    shuni
    Participant

    There is no feud between Chabad and Breslov, and it is the sitra achra which is suggesting such a feud.
    1) Lots of Chabad people come to Uman for Rosh hashanaha, there is even a chabad house there and chabad minyan on RH.
    2) Lots of people are hasidim of both Chabad and Breslov (heard of |Habakuk hasidim? Habad/Breslov/Rav Kuk? lots in Nahlaot)
    3) The old time Breslovers said if you dont know Tanya you cant be a good Breslover (see seforim by reb Nachman MiTcherin who quoted Tanya at length , see Lashon Hasidim)
    4) there is a lesson Likkutei Moharan which summarises all of Tanya (lessioh 19, first helek)
    from a Breslover in Har Nof who appreciates the good point of both!

    #1353359

    couldbe
    Participant

    770Chabad you wrote “Chabad loves and accepts everyone for who they are and we will never ever hate or discriminate against anyone and we believe ื—ืกื™ื“ื™ื ืื™ื™ืŸ ืžืฉืคื—ื” โ€ฆ..”

    If Chabad loves and accepts everyone for who they are etc why is it only ื—ืกื™ื“ื™ื ืื™ื™ืŸ ืžืฉืคื—ื”? What happened to the millions who aren’t chassidim?

    #1353861

    Okay people, color war is OVER!!!!
    The red team won with 5674 points!!!!
    Everyone can go back to their bunks for a shower and rest and dinner will be served at 8 in the dining hall!

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