December 21, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #593625
If only the Klal realized how hurt to the core, large numbers of girls who cant find Shidduchim are, driving them to become drastically less frum, or only outwardly Frum, despite years of the best Bais Yaakovs and Seminaries, finding girls Shidduchim would be taken as seriously as the best Kiruv organizations.
The girls get turned off from Frumkeit (they see no answers to their dilemma), Frum guys (who seem way to choosy), and Frum people in general (they seem too busy to care about their dilemma). They say- what do they need this for? Everything seems false to them (Sheker Hachain vHevel HaYofi, Isha Yiras hashem Hi Tishallal- those with Yiras Hashem might have been praised in school, but usually need many materialistic components, that are of much greater importance than her Yiras Hashem, in finding a Shidduch, and Yiras Hashem is sometimes to girls’ detriment, but thats another topic). The longer they’re single, the longer they have to asess Frum people and rethink major life decisions.
Im not siding with anyone, just stating a fact.
Until now there’s been lots of talk and too little action.December 21, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #720451popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Frum guys (who seem way to choosy)
Is that really how it works? You make it seem as if most dating experiences end with the boy saying no for some odd reason, and moving on to the next one.
I have never heard such a claim that boys say no more often than girls. Is it true?December 21, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #720452
It will be when it becomes the multi million dollar business that Kiruv has become.
That is part of AZ’s solution.December 21, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #720453
gaw, “It will be when it becomes the multi million dollar business that Kiruv has become”
Oy. But OTOH, whatever works. A lot of crying souls out there, who feel there’s no one listening.December 21, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #720454memoMember
what singles can do:
2. Call people-relatives,friends
3. DAVEN IY”H BY ALL OF KLAL YISROEL
4. Network again-get your name out there–also present yourself in a way that pple will think of setting you up..neat,well dressed etc.
as an aside don’t sit and wait (noone is doing that) go to classes, gym, etc. get involved IY”H by every single out there!
There was a post a while ago of contacts-shadchanim to contact..get hold of a list as wellDecember 21, 2010 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #720455
I just wonder if people spent a similar amount of time that they spend in the CR, on thinking of matches for older Singles….but there are always excuses, not my personality, too busy, nothing ever worked….December 21, 2010 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #720456
If young women are getting turned off there’s something wrong with other things. I propose working on those at the same time as stepping up the efforts in shidduchim.December 21, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #720458
I’d like to think that NASI has spent alot of time, and energy, and has been very effective to date. I assume by “little action” you meant aside from that wonderfull (very NON PROFIT) operation.
GAW: Billion Dollar Business????
Please explain where that comment comes form. Reasonbable relatively small compensation for achievable resutls is NOT expensive and it is very effective.
But Of Course is 100% correct! If it would take a billion dolaar operation then we must do it.
Thankfully it won’t. As OC well understands.. close the age gap and we won’t have these girls becomine less frum which is a true tragedy of the situation…..December 21, 2010 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #720459
AZ: Only multi million, drop some zeros 🙂
But the point is still true. Having it be someones parnassah brings along the proccess.December 21, 2010 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #720461
GAW: glad to see you’ve come around.
One slight correction, even if/when the idea becomes widespread, it would hardly be a parnassah, but it would be sufficient to keep people motivated and involved.December 21, 2010 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #720462mikehall12382Member
matchamaker matchmaker make me a match….December 21, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #720463
AZ: Let’s make clear that it won’t solve the problem, but it can be a tool that will do something, and that is good too.
The shaddchanim will still work on those who will pay them more. That is why the kehilla concept (steady income, no pressure to redd specific people) is better, I think, but your idea can also be used.December 21, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #720464SJSinNYCMember
This is an interesting post considering IME more single men go OTD than single women.December 21, 2010 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #720465mikehall12382Member
maybe we should move back to arranged marriages?December 21, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #720466
SJSinNYC, you might be right about there being more men going OTD than women, but their going OTD usually happens while very young and not yet in Shidduchim (teens), or often, when much older and rarely, if ever, having any connection to the tribulations of Shidduchim and lack of options for them, Shidduchwise.December 21, 2010 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #720467SJSinNYCMember
Ofcourse, I have a different experience. I know quite a few men OTD who went off in their mid to late 20s.
Just because a man can get a lot of dates, doesn’t mean he can find the right spouse.December 21, 2010 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #720468Midwest2Participant
Another angle on this – from what I’ve seen more women are being mekarev than men, making the imbalance at slightly older ages even worse. A male baal teshuvah has a chance of being matched to an FFB girl with a “problem” while it’s highly unusual for a shadchan to set up an FFB guy with a BT girl.
And don’t be too complacent about girls not going off the derech. The biological horizon for women having children is middle thirties. We raise our girls to believe that children and marriage are the only worthwhile goal, and then make it impossible for some of them – through no fault of their own – to achieve it, and there is no place in hareidi society for unmarried older women. When the current crop of single women now in their twenties start hitting that crucial age, we may get an unpleasant surprise.December 21, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #720469
SJSinNYC, true, a lot of dates doesnt guarantee finding one’s spouse, but at least men feel there are possibilities out there. Lots of possibilities = lots of hope, 0 possibilities = 0 hope.December 21, 2010 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #720470
GAW: I see you still haven’t understood my concept. It IS a kehilla arrangement. Instead of hiring one shadchan it invites and motivates tens of people to focus on the slightly older girls in that specific community.
It costs less and produces more than hiring a shadchan
Midwest2: your comment is on the button and extremely scary. The ramifications are trully seismic…December 21, 2010 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #720471pumperMember
I’m not sure one can say that older singles go off the derech, but they do become less enthusiastic about yiddeshkeit in general.
It is very hard to keep up the inspiration from high school and seminary many years later, especially since many girls end up in college or a workplace that is not a frum environment.
I know many older singles, whom when they started dating at 19 they were looking for long time kollel, but as the years went on the requirements dwindled and now they are not interested in kollel at all.December 21, 2010 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #720472D9MemberDecember 21, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #720473americaisoverParticipant
Too many girls want a guy who learns 3 hours a day, works 10 hours a day, does chesed 2 hours a day and only engages in strictly Bne’ Brak entertainment (hint none at all), Well girls these guys DONT exist, and I am not getting into finances or looks which makes things EVEN MORE complicated. OTD with guys happens when they are 18 then they go to Israel get bored, learn and go to become “learners” get married get bored of frumkeit need I go on, OTD+ BT are often a difficult group to set up, who knows what else they’ ll do people like stability.December 21, 2010 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #720474
AZ: Since in your proposed system, there are still going to be girls who will be unwilling/unable to pay, it does not cover everyone in the same way.
A totally immodest prediction about the “crisis.”
Why immodest? Well, I predicted the OTD crisis, and I predicted the shidduch crisis and I predicted the parnassah crisis. Not with nevi’ah, but with common sense and little knowledge of the social sciences. (Not that anyone listened to me.) And I wasn’t the only person predicting. I would name names but I wouldn’t want to offend anyone or reveal my true identity.
NEXT CRISIS: OTD older single girls. We teach our girls that the only worthwhile thing in life is children and marriage (in that order emotionally speaking, not temporally) then we make sure that a lot of them can’t achieve it. And we also have a society in which there is no place for single older women (or single older men, now that I come to think about it).
What’s going to happen when these girls, most of whom are now in mid to late twenties, hit their middle thirties and see their chances of having children closing off? Are they going to feel disillusioned? Desperate? Are they going to hang around to become “poor things” or are they going to go off the derech, maybe even marry that nice non-hareidi guy at work? OTD crisis? We ain’t seen nuttin’ yet.
Midwest2: I have suggested before (in the CR) that what will happen is they will take advantage of AI, domestic parterships and adoption to bypass the male aspect of having & raising a child.
Maybe then someone will be willing to do something?December 21, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #720475mddMember
D9, very good!
Americaisover, the very suspicious attitude towards BTs, for sure, makes it much more likely that they will indeed go OTD, has ve’sholom.December 21, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #720476americaisoverParticipant
MDD, would a girl that went to Bais Yakov marry a boy that possibly has had a relationship with shiksa? but then found learning to be fun, once he find a “new” approach, I doubt it, I am sure her parents would not want that either. Girls are to blame for this crisis just like boys 50/50, neither has realistic expectations of REAL life.December 21, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #720477
GAW: why would a kehilla offering to compnesate for date #2/#4 only offer it for the wealthy girls? i fail to understand. I think you still don’t understand the concept that has been tried tested and in the process of being expanded.
In fact it can potentially put the girls with less going for them in a better position as communities could/wil reach out to the appropriate people and egender more attention for those girls who all things being equal would have tended to get less attention.December 21, 2010 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #720478
GAW: all things being equal the goal is to get extra attention for the slightly older girls. So long as all girls are equal we will continue to have the situation we presently find ourself in.
Boys get married/girls stay single.
this is a method that really helps the slightly older girls.
stay tuned coming to a commuity near you…December 21, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #720480
Why would older single girls of the upcoming generation go OTD anymore than older single girls who didn’t get married of the previous 2 or 3 generations?
You don’t have a higher proportion of girls from this generation being unable to get married, then you had in the past 3 generations.December 22, 2010 3:11 am at 3:11 am #720481
TMB, “You don’t have a higher proportion of girls from this generation being unable to get married, then you had in the past 3 generations”
I believe that statement is woefully inaccurate and I think that AZ can probably back up how inaccurate with numbers. I’ve heard that never in the past 3 generations has there been as high a percentage of unmarried girls from Frum schools.December 22, 2010 5:21 am at 5:21 am #720482
I await for sourced numbers. Until then, at least, I strongly maintain my position.December 22, 2010 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #720484
TMB: we have discussed this point at lengnth in previous threads ad nasuem and there is a letter from 70 R”Y attesteing to the obvious truth. The explanation is
1. Our communitites growth rate dwarfs previous generations bli ayin hara. As such the differentail in class size between grades 1 and grades 5 is very significant, with younger grades being by far larger do to population growth. Similarly the differential between age 19 (when the girls start dating) and age 22.5 (when the boys start dating is very significant as well.
2. This automatic result is that the numbers of girls entering the shidduch pool each year far outnumbers the boys entering the pool. Thus we are faced with a cruel game of musical chairs with the boys being chairs and the girls being the participants.
Are we clear?
If you like the accuratial report that documented these findings feel free to contact the NASI organization and I’m sure they’ll oblige. (to contact them i would recoomend calling the Yated and they will give you their number. They do not have a website, and I obviously can’t post their email in this forum)December 22, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #720485
SZ: good catch. I don’t know how I missed that one. I wonder if that’s the word he meant.December 22, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #720486
shlomozalman, Halevei the girls would have opportunities you speak of with non-Chareidi guys at work, or anywhere. The numbers of guys to girls throughout the frum (Sabbath-observant) world, including MO, seem similar. No difference. Ask any SYAS matchmaker!December 22, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #720487
Ofcourse: Thank you for confirming what I have been trying to explaing for a LONG time…December 22, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #720488nfgo3Member
Does anyone have any hard facts from reliable sources about the “shidduch crisis”? Has the percentage of unmarried young frum women increased in the last few years? Are the bochurim who should be marrying the BY graduates going off the derech? Are the BY graduates marrying non-frum men, or goyim (i) in preference to bochurim, or (ii) because no bochurim are available?December 22, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #720489
feel free to review old threads and posts where this exact issue was disucssed in great detail.
In a nutshell
1. The percentage of unmarried young frum women reaching their thirties and mid thirties has exploded in the last few years
2. It has nothing to do with BY graduates more than girls from other schools, (in fact the right wing schools actually have a slightly better marriage percentage for their alumni)
3. What these girls will do (or have done) when they realize the situation they are in is a very scary thought….December 22, 2010 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #720490
Nfgo3, are those all the choices? What about, say working boys?December 22, 2010 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #720491
I pointed out this generation’s unmarryable girls are proportionally not different than the last 2 or 3 generations. Ofcourse said you could disprove that. Please do.
What was different in the last 2 or 3 generations than this generation?December 22, 2010 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #720492
TMB: And i pointed out the inacurracy of your statment. Family sizes have exploded Bla”h in the last 20 years and that causes a signifciant differential for each year younger the girls are in relation to the boys.
In additon the dating structure is more rigid now and thus far far more boys only begin dating closer to 23 whereas 15 years ago far far more boys where dating at 21.5 and 22 etc….
Fell free to contact NASI and they will furnish you will the accturarial study.December 23, 2010 5:38 am at 5:38 am #720493Midwest2Participant
Umm. When I said “non-Hareidi boys” I was deliberately understating the possibilities. There are plenty of very nice guys who are not Jewish at all, but seeing that there is no stigma attached to marrying a Jew any more, they have no reason to shy away. If a woman feels that Yiddishkeit, i.e. the frum community, has abandoned her, she might just feel that there’s no reason not to abandon it.
And yes, the rabbanim in EY have issued a psak that AI is forbidden to single women, which they wouldn’t have done if the issue hadn’t already come up.
Yes, it’s a dangerous situation. What are we doing about it? It could be your own daughter/sister/granddaughter.December 23, 2010 5:58 am at 5:58 am #720494
What caused boys to start dating later in the past 15 years? So we simply need to revert back to the dating ages boys started at 15+ years ago…?December 23, 2010 6:02 am at 6:02 am #720495klachMember
how come no one seems to realize that there are reasons that certain roshei yeshiva/ yeshivos encourage their talmidim to marry at like 23, 24? They are a bona fide, absoluetly valid Daas Torah and these cheshbonos are far more complicated than people make them out to be.December 23, 2010 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #720496
TMB: tha’s only half the equation. Popultion growh is the other. Since we don’t plan on changing that (i assume), inevitably it will be necessary to work on the girls end as well-indirecttly of course. Thus the concept of gettig more attention for the slightly older girls comes into play.
Klac: Because that is a total fabrication though i won’t go into it in this forum. And it’s something that many R”Y would like to see changed for numerous reasons.December 23, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #720497
“And it’s something that many R”Y would like to see changed for numerous reasons” (AZ)
Evidently there are also many who wouldn’t. I know of a R”Y who likes his boys to stay in his beis medrash as long as they’re growing. (Most will go on to E”Y.) If that means till they’re 22, and they stay in E”Y long enough to be learning well and form good relationships, not coming home at an arbitrary cut off date… Well, I don’t see total compliance.December 23, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #720498
AZ – you are trying to sell a new concept of paying per-date. I have been reading your plan on this thread & others. You seem to be connected to the NASI project. Is the NASI group planning on paying the money? Are they going to be responsible to make sure each shadchan is payed? Do they have the money? Have they been able to keep paying the shadchonim who make close in age shidduchim?December 23, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #720499
shrag- The communities are funding it themselves.December 23, 2010 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #720500
AZ – who is collecting the money? Who is guaranteeing the money? And you didn’t answer -has NASI been able to keep paying the shadchonim who make close in age shidduchim? My sources tell me they haven’t.December 23, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #720501
Each community is taking care of their own funding and to date (no pun intended) every shadchan has been paid for what they have earned.
NASI discontinued the shadchan incentive project Tu B’shvat 5769. (almost two years ago). They paid out over $100,000 in the year plus that the project was active and that project was the primary vehicle for bringing to light the Age Gap concept.December 23, 2010 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #720502
AZ – so, basically the communties that are paying will get dates & the ones that aren’t – their girls will be overlooked? How does that solve the age gap problem? And, if there really is an age gap problem – how will paying shadchonim for dates help?
Also, if the communities are doing this on their own – why is it a NASI project?December 23, 2010 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #720504
Please explain your math
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