Fires in Israel

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  • #618727

    Health
    Participant

    They have declared a State of Emergency!

    They shouldn’t have let it go so far!

    Take thousands of soldiers & thousands of shovels and build fire lines.

    This has long gone out of control. There’s very little chance of doing this conventionally!

    #1195917

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Since you have such expertise on how to fight fires, why don’t you hop on the next plane to Israel and volunteer your services?

    #1195918

    Health
    Participant

    YY -“Since you have such expertise on how to fight fires, why don’t you hop on the next plane to Israel and volunteer your services?”

    I knew s/o would criticize!

    You’re only an expert when it comes to politics!

    Didn’t you say e/o should vote for Hillary or that Hillary was going to win?!?

    Anyways go back and read my post – I wrote “Take thousands of soldiers etc…”; I’m one guy, not thousands!

    #1195919

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yehudayona, he is a member of the armchair club along with generals who never served in any army and maybe don’t even know what end the bullet comes out, economists who never even took Eco 1, poskim who don’t know on which side of the Gemara is Rashi’s commentary and on which side is Tosafot’s, etc.

    #1195920

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“he is a member of the armchair club along with generals who never served in any army and maybe don’t even know what end the bullet comes out”

    I definitely wouldn’t serve in the IDF. It’s Osser Gommer!

    #1195921

    Abba_S
    Participant

    I think it would be a waste of manpower to call the IDF up to fight forest fires with a shovel unless they are trained to do it. Rather have the air force drop rubber bladder full of water on the fires They can also reconfigure the Hercules air plane so that they can suck up water while flying just a few feet above the Mediterranean and then dump it on the fire. They can also have the air force dump sand on the fires using transport air craft.

    I am not a expert in either fighting fires or fighting wars but this seems to be a simple solution to this problem.

    #1195922

    Health
    Participant

    Abba_S -“I think it would be a waste of manpower to call the IDF up to fight forest fires with a shovel unless they are trained to do it.”

    Actually they would stop the vast destruction!

    Have you read the news – they declared a State of Emergency?!?

    “Rather have the air force drop rubber bladder full of water on the fires They can also reconfigure the Hercules air plane so that they can suck up water while flying just a few feet above the Mediterranean and then dump it on the fire.”

    They are already doing that and got other countries to pitch in.

    It’s not enough!

    “They can also have the air force dump sand on the fires using transport air craft.”

    Sounds like a novel idea, but I doubt it would work!

    “I am not a expert in either fighting fires or fighting wars but this seems to be a simple solution to this problem”

    But I am an expert in a few things, and one of them is fire safety.

    Use bulldozers and shovels and make fire lines! Make sure that the line is big enough so the fire can’t jump over!

    #1195923

    Sam2
    Participant

    Fighting fires has progressed since the 19th century Great Plains.

    #1195924

    mw13
    Participant

    Ooh, I have a great idea of how to help our brethren in distress! Let’s yell and scream at each other and hurl around nasty insults!! That’s sure to help!!!

    #1195925

    Health
    Participant

    Abba_S -“I think it would be a waste of manpower to call the IDF up to fight forest fires with a shovel unless they are trained to do it.”

    Sam2 -“Fighting fires has progressed since the 19th century Great Plains”

    I’m beginning to wonder are a lot of Jews – know-it-alls, just like you two?!?

    Why don’t you learn from people that do know what they’re talking about before commenting?!?

    Here’s a quote from the Website called Wildland Fires:

    “What types of airplanes and helicopters are used to put out fires?”

    #1195926

    Abba_S
    Participant

    But I am an expert in a few things, and one of them is fire safety.

    Use bulldozers and shovels and make fire lines! Make sure that the line is big enough so the fire can’t jump over!

    This is the first time you refereed to using bulldozer to to make a fire line before that you wanted them to do it with shovels. The width of the fire line is dependent on how high the forest fire is. I don’t understand all you need is a few bulldozers not a bunch of soldiers with shovels.

    “Rather have the air force drop rubber bladder full of water on the fires They can also reconfigure the Hercules air plane so that they can suck up water while flying just a few feet above the Mediterranean and then dump it on the fire.”

    They are already doing that and got other countries to pitch in.

    It’s not enough!

    During the Cold War when Russia blockaded Berlin the US had planes landing one after the other. With ground control and maximum usage they could have air craft constantly dropping water both in front of the fire and on the fire.They can have these planes refuel and reloaded with water midair which I doubt they are doing, which in turn reduces the amount of water dropped on the fire and is why the fire is not out.

    They can also have the air force dump sand on the fires using transport air craft.”

    Sounds like a novel idea, but I doubt it would work!

    The concept is to deny the fire oxygen. This can also be accomplished by using explosives. Another solution maybe to create a wind by using giant fans so that the fire is blown back in the forest which was already burnt and the fire goes out because of the lack of fuel.

    The Israelis didn’t learn from the Mount Carmel fire in 2010 and prepare for this. Now I think the Arabs are using arson to drive the Jews out.

    #1195927

    Utah
    Member

    Prayers for my brothers and sisters in Israel.

    Lets try and do some mitzvos for them. Maybe try and focus on one mitzva and really try to make it a focus so that in its merit our brothers and sisters wont have to suffer from the fires.

    Also a side question does anyone know of anyone collecting money to send to the people that were affected from the fires? I want to help out.

    #1195928

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, you are correct. It is completely prohibited for you as you would destroy morale. Unless, of course, you became a secret agent in a terrorist group.

    #1195929

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Utah: “Lets try and do some mitzvos for them. Maybe try and focus on one mitzva and really try to make it a focus so that in its merit our brothers and sisters wont have to suffer from the fires.”

    Great idea Utah! Maybe we should try to work on being nicer to each other (including myself – don’t worry). That would definitely help a lot more!

    #1195930

    yehudayona
    Participant

    “Didn’t you say e/o should vote for Hillary or that Hillary was going to win?!?”

    Actually, no. But of course this is a red herring. What does the election have to do with the fires in Israel?

    #1195934

    YW Moderator-127
    Moderator

    Warning: non constructive posts will be deleted

    #1195935

    The thread does not appear to reflect that statement.

    #1195936

    Health
    Participant

    127 – “Warning: non constructive posts will be deleted”

    I hardly ever see constructive posts in any topic.

    Why did you pick on me?

    And a lot of my post was constructive.

    #1195937

    mw13
    Participant

    yehudayona:

    What does the election have to do with the fires in Israel?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/quotes-2/page/2?replies=86#post-635022

    #1195938

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Using untrained soldiers is a recipe for disaster, even trained firefighter can be killed if the wind shifts. How many Jewish soldiers will have to die until you see the futility of it.

    As far as water dropped from air craft not putting out fires. This is due to the fact that the volume of water dropped is minimal and then the plane has to land to get more water. My idea is to have the planes scoop up the water while flying a foot or two above the Mediterranean. Then have air controller vector them to the fire to insure they drop it for maximum effect and don’t crash into one another. This way there will be a constant flow of air craft dropping water on the fire. While having air craft scoop water while flying is not new the idea of having the planes follow one after the other and drop and scoop water has never been done.

    I am not a know it all but please explain why this isn’t feasible?

    This concept is used by bomber with aircraft rearmed and refueled in minutes and sent back on another sortie.

    #1195939

    I have no idea if it would work or not but I assume they know what they are doing and if something is a good idea they are probably doing it.

    #1195940

    Avi K
    Participant

    Abba, actually I heard on the radio an interview with a firefighter who said that the water is combined with other materials. I think the main problems are that it is very dry and there has been a very strong east wind. In fact, I heard that tehre were also large fires in Syria and Jordan.

    #1195941

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Chevra, the crux of the problem here – which you would know if you lived here – are the unceasing and usually powerful winds. The fire travels very quickly, and the terrain is dry from not having any rain on it (there was one small rain) in an entire year. Do the math…

    #1195942

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “unceasing and usually powerful winds. The fire travels very quickly, and the terrain is dry from not having any rain on it “

    Thanks for your insider information lebidik yankel!

    Yea… The California wildfires are hard enough.

    This is cities burning intentionally by arsonist with even less extinguishing resources, such as airplanes and water.

    Israel is def not to blame here for not stopping it beforehand. They can only do so much against the elements. Surely a lot of people are praying in the medinah right now, and internationally for cessation and reparation.

    May this thread provide prayers as well please, for a safe and speedy stop to the fires and healing for those affected and rebuilding their lives with Hashem’s goodness and loving-kindness.

    #1195943

    Health
    Participant

    Abba_S -“Using untrained soldiers is a recipe for disaster, even trained firefighter can be killed if the wind shifts. How many Jewish soldiers will have to die until you see the futility of it.”

    I’m tired of arguing with you! It would take only few hours to train the soldiers. It’s not really dangerous as long as there’s a professional in charge. They don’t have to be close to the fire to make a fire line.

    Aircraft won’t work because of the wind!

    But I give you credit, you’re very persistent

    #1195944

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Simple solution to a complex problem from an armchair captain commanding some other army’s troops with hypothetical resources and simplified risk assessment all based on theoretical analysis

    #1195945

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The only thing that helps is Torah and Mitzvos. When bad things happen, the Torah says that we are supposed to see what we need to work on in terms of Ruchnius.

    (yes, we also need hishtadlus, but it’s not the ikar. And in this case, it’s only for the firefighters & army).

    Additionally, according to the Alshich, in E”Y, hishtadlus IS Torah & Mitzvos.

    #1195946

    Health
    Participant

    Lightbrite -“armchair captain”

    Put your money where your mouth is!

    Pay for my flight and salary and I won’t be an armchair captain.

    I’d go there myself.

    #1195947

    Health
    Participant

    LU -“Additionally, according to the Alshich, in E”Y, hishtadlus IS Torah & Mitzvos”

    I agree! I hate to inform you, but most of Israel is Not Frum!

    #1195948

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I hate to inform you, but most of Israel is Not Frum!

    Frumkeit in E”Y is not a black and white thing. It’s not our job to label people.

    And can you please stop ending every sentence with an exclamation point!

    #1195949

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “LU -“Additionally, according to the Alshich, in E”Y, hishtadlus IS Torah & Mitzvos”

    “I agree! I hate to inform you, but most of Israel is Not Frum!”

    My point was that if you and I want to help EY, we can best do that by trying to do more Mitzvos as opposed to criticizing the way the Country is handling the fires.

    #1195950

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Frumkeit in E”Y is not a black and white thing. It’s not our job to label people.”

    Right! And the “not-Frum” people here do plenty of Mitzvos, particularly during difficult times when they know how much their zchusim are needed. When the 3 boys, zts”l were kidnapped, many people took on extra Mitzvos.

    #1195951

    Abba_S
    Participant

    “I’m tired of arguing with you! It would take only few hours to train the soldiers. It’s not really dangerous as long as there’s a professional in charge. They don’t have to be close to the fire to make a fire line. Aircraft won’t work because of the wind!”

    The IDF is warned about going into Arab villages yet every once and a while they have to rescue soldiers who wandered in. As far as training them in a few hours they are not going to pay attention claiming it’s not their job. So unless you have professional firefighter supervisor for every 10 soldiers watching over his squad a lot of soldiers are going to get hurt. As far as being far from the fire, the fires move rapidly when driven by winds. As far as the aircraft wouldn’t work , on Friday they brought a supertanker to drop water on the fires putting out fires according to Vois Iz Nieas.

    This is a repeat of the Mt. Carmel Fire, the lessons weren’t learnt. I think it a sign that the Jewish People has to do do teshuvah, perhaps we can start with reducing Loshan Horah and in turn Hashem will fight these fires for us.

    #1195952

    Health
    Participant

    TM -“And can you please stop ending every sentence with an exclamation point”

    No, I won’t!!!

    “Frumkeit in E”Y is not a black and white thing. It’s not our job to label people.”

    edit

    I was going with the normal definition of Shomer Shabbos or Not!

    Health, people are complaining about the way you speak to them. I will delete any name calling when I catch it, and I can either rewrite your posts less venomously, or you can. Your choice.

    #1195953

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba:”perhaps we can start with reducing Loshan Horah and in turn Hashem will fight these fires for us.”

    +1! So can you add something to my LH thread? It kind of disappeared to the next page already because no one’s added to it :(.

    I know I could have – but I didn’t want to be the only one. Also, I’ve been too busy trying to work out divorce issues, etc.

    #1195954

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I was going with the normal definition of Shomer Shabbos or Not!”

    We were talking about doing Mitzvos – not whether or not people are Frum. (Anyhow, the word “frum” is a made-up word.)

    All Jews do Mitzvos, whatever label you want to give them.

    #1195955

    Health
    Participant

    LU -“All Jews do Mitzvos, whatever label you want to give them”

    “Additionally, according to the Alshich, in E”Y, hishtadlus IS Torah & Mitzvos”

    My understanding is that if you want protection that you can consider Hishtadlus, the minimum of being Frum is Shomer Shabbos!

    #1195956

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “My understanding is that if you want protection that you can consider Hishtadlus, the minimum of being Frum is Shomer Shabbos!”

    Every Mitzvah that every Jew does counts – and counts tremendously. Not doing one Mitzvah doesn’t take away from the fact that you are doing another Mitzvah. If someone speaks Loshon Hora, his keeping Shabbos still counts, and if someone else is careful not to speak Loshon Hora or to keep kosher, those things count even if he doesn’t keep Shabbos.

    If someone puts on Tefillin once in his life, it is a Mitzvah. If the government grants exemptions to Yeshiva Bochurim, they are doing a Mitzvah. In fact, I think a certain Gadol may have said that it is in that zchus that they have protection from Hashem (and no, that is not zionism – it doesn’t mean the government should have been created in the first place, but any Mitzvos they do still count despite any aveiros that they do.)

    #1195957

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Health: AviK and I booked you first class starting yesterday. Tisah neyeema!

    #1195958

    Health
    Participant

    LU -“I think a certain Gadol may have said that it is in that zchus that they have protection from Hashem”

    Well I think that they did. I don’t think anyone was killed in the fires!

    But a lot of physical damage.

    Using soldiers with rakes and shovels, along with bulldozers would have prevented some of the damage!

    #1195961

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LU -“I think a certain Gadol may have said that it is in that zchus that they have protection from Hashem”

    Well I think that they did. I don’t think anyone was killed in the fires!

    Boruch Hashem! maybe this was just meant as a warning. So let’s continue working on Torah & Mitzvos, so we won’t need a follow-up warning, c”v…

    In terms of any physical damage, we have to believe that whatever happened was min haShamayim, period! No one can cause anything to happen – only Hashem!

    #1195962

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “No one can cause anything to happen – only Hashem! (lilmod ulelamaid) “

    Which is why Smokey the Bear never gets a gig in Israel

    #1195963

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Americans are literally coming to Israel to put out the fires 🙂

    #1195964

    Health
    Participant

    LU -“In terms of any physical damage, we have to believe that whatever happened was min haShamayim, period!”

    “Boruch Hashem! maybe this was just meant as a warning. So let’s continue working on Torah & Mitzvos, so we won’t need a follow-up warning,”

    So why do you say it was just a warning? Obviously it wasn’t!

    #1195965

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “So why do you say it was just a warning? Obviously it wasn’t!”

    Even though there was damage to property, no one was killed, even though lives were in danger. That is called a warning. Hashem put our lives in danger but chose to save us from being killed and just damaged our property instead.

    #1195966

    Health
    Participant

    LU -“Even though there was damage to property, … That is called a warning”

    Every punishment is also a warning!

    #1195967

    mw13
    Participant

    Mod-??:

    edit

    Health, people are complaining about the way you speak to them. I will delete any name calling when I catch it, and I can either rewrite your posts less venomously, or you can. Your choice.

    +1(!)

    #1195968

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe the last post is a bit of overkill? I feel like the point was made – we don’t have to keep bashing the guy?

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