Flag Parade and Our Jewish Values

Go back to the Shtetl you came from and beg the Goyim to be nice to you.

We died a lot less when we behaved that way. Millions less.

besalel: In this instance, walking around with a Yarmulka in Jerusalem doesn’t trigger the goyim to form anti-Jewish riots; parading around waving the zionist flag, does.

The “in your face” flag waving is far more incendiary, obviously, but arabs do not really know the difference between a 10th generation yerushalmi who couldn’t care less if the arabs ran eretz yisroel, and a zionist who believes that ben gurion is the Messiah.

Agreed. The whole concept of “The State of Israel” is k’negged the Torah and antagonizing goyim. Now that it exists, we have to try and make the best of it, which we have Baruch Hashem. Only too many Jews, unfortunately, forget that Moshiach hasn’t yet come and insist on pretending to be some Koichi Voitzem Yodi conquerors pushing goyim more and more.

@moishekapoieh Koichi v’oitzem yodi usuh es ha’chayil ha’zeh?

The flag parade is a meaningless celebration that does nothing other than to antagonize a nation who barely needs an excuse to murder Jews.

Here is a real troubling story (excuse its length) from last Shabbos on Arab anti-Jewish discrimination and persecution from within Israeli police:

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Doctrine of Combat: After Remarking to Arabs of Illegal Behavior A religious citizen was violently arrested 20 minutes before Shabbat and held for hours without the knowledge of his family

Rotter, 30.05.22

When he goes out back to his house, some residents of the neighborhood approach him and tell him that there are Arabs at sea who make a mess on the beach, barbecue, hookahs, alcohol, loud music (all against the law) harass residents, threaten them and scare them (events that have become routine in the past year, including attempts of rape and a host of sexual harassment).

To try to help them, they appealed to some Arab families to stop their actions and calm things down. But then one Arab woman got up and threw her shoe in the face of the same guy and a commotion ensued. Despite this, A. told everyone who was there not to raise a hand and not to resort to violence and even prevented some guys from doing so.

Despite this, the Arab called the police but for some reason the police chose to hear only one side, the Arabs pointed to A. as a threatening factor (while he was the moderating factor). The police asked the guy to identify himself but he first asked to understand why and in what claim, he told the police that he wanted to file a complaint about the Arab woman who threw the shoe at him, but they demanded his arrest, 20 minutes before Shabbat !!! This is a religious guy!

During the conversation with the policemen, an Arab policeman, who had not been present at all before, arrived and began a violent arrest, with indescribable brutality and disproportionate to the incident and shocking without any prior warning, knocked him to the floor, resorted to blatantly unreasonable and very dangerous use of Taser. “!!! When he is already lying on the floor and there is no opposition on his part, so a reserve officer is humiliated for no reason, unjustly, in front of the Arabs.

The guy was dragged into the police car with brutality and humiliation even though he did not express any opposition and did not resort to violence. The policeman ignored and even refused to accede to his request that they bring him the Kippah and inform his wife that is waiting for him at home all this time, as far as his wife is concerned he went to immerse in the sea and did not return !!!

During the completion of the report, when A. was handcuffed and handcuffed like the last of the terrorists behind bars, he was told that he was under arrest.
While the Arab policeman is filling out a complaint report, he calls one of the policemen who was at the scene and consults with him on which section it is worth accusing him of because he himself did not understand what (and there really is nothing about) in Arabic so that he does not understand and everything she says the policeman writes, without trying at all to find out if she is lying or not.

Now listen carefully! The most humiliating part was, when at the end of the Arab policeman’s shift, before he went home he went to No ‘and said to him:’ Do not think that only you have Zionism, this land is ours and I will fight for it until its last grain ‘. This is what a policeman in the Israel Police says, instead of representing the State of Israel and its laws, he acts like a fifth column within the police.

Now listen to the great absurdity. A. is taken for questioning, after the interrogator hears the things and looks at the videos he himself says out loud that he is ashamed of the police behavior and does not understand why the incident developed to such dimensions, why they did not solve it with speech and composure and honestly used violence and adds that he has no doubt should release him to his wife and his children (who until now have no idea where he disappeared !!!), he takes off his handcuffs and goes to talk to the officer.

After several hours of helplessness and uncertainty and waiting for the decision of the shift officer, the investigator returns and tells him that he is very sorry, but contrary to what he estimated, it was decided to send him to detention until the end of the proceedings at Kishon Detention Center.
He handcuffs him again, A. asks to speak to the officer and tries to understand how it could be and what is the reason for extending the detention? The officer has no words in his mouth other than: “instructions from above.” After long hours and after countless requests and pleas that at least they would leave him at the station so that he would not violate Shabbat, but the guy was taken to the Kishon Detention Center at 1:30 at night.

All this time A. is really begging to be informed by his wife in any way that he is under arrest but it does not interest anyone. His relative heard about the story and arrived on foot at the police station just minutes after he was taken away, the police told him that A. asked not to inform his wife that he was in custody, a complete lie! In Kishon’s detention, he spends until Sunday in a shocking atmosphere, he is put in a cell with 8 Arab detainees from Jenin, do you understand? An army combat officer is with Arabs from Jenin in the same cell all Saturday. He does not receive a kippah, he does not receive wine for Kiddush and Havdalah. During the Sabbath, he is physically threatened by some prisoners that if he does not behave as they ask, they will beat him.

On Saturday night, he was taken to the Magistrate’s Court in Haifa.
When he arrived at the court, the policeman asked for an extension of detention for five days until the end of the proceedings because he has a weapon at home (he was not armed at the time of the incident) so he is dangerous to the public, thank God the judge did not understand the connection and ordered his immediate release.

This shocking and appalling story is not just a private story that finds itself in a discriminatory and unjust situation, it is a story about what is happening in the ranks of the police. When an Arab policeman, wearing a uniform, tells a Jewish detainee that this land belongs to Arabs and he will fight for it until the last grain, it reflects to us that in the end there is a nationalist struggle against Jews in the State of Israel, that Arabs also wearing uniforms identify with him and take part in this struggle. There are many non-Jewish soldiers and policemen who faithfully serve the state and its citizens, but if we do not treat such policemen who discriminate against Jews, then our law enforcement system will also be neutered and will not stand by us on the day of command, and this day is near.

There is a world of a difference between having national pride and shouting “death to the Arabs”, and harassing them. While Religious Zionists celebrate Israel only a minority fringe segment chants hate messages, and fighting with the Arabs. These actions are generally condemned by many leaders in the Dati Liumi world. Rav Aharon Lichtenstien, a very influential Rav in the DL world condemned in the strongest terms these types of things. As do many leaders in that world.

Yserbius123- i don’t think you’re right that having a state is Kneged Hatorah. Certainly the secular nature of the state is terrible and we have to try to make it as religious as possible. There is no excuse to use violence against innocent people. The state of israel however, was looked at a gift from Hashem by many Gedolim. The secular Zionists intended it as a way of replacing religion Rl, which was terrible. Nevertheless, many Gedolim viewed it as a Berachah, even if the founders had bad intentions. Here are some examples of Gedolim’s views.
The Ponivitzer Rav didn’t say Tachanun on YH, clearly viewing The State of Israel as a happy event. He also supported hanging an Israeli flag on The Yeshivah on YH, a practice continued to this very day.
Rav Dessler (Michtav Mieliyahu, volume 3, page 352) writes about the miracle of The State of Israel. He criticizes those who are blind from seeing the the miracle.
Rav Isser Zalman celebrated the founding of the state of Israel, as testified by his Talmid, Rav Reuven Katz.
Rav Ovadya Yosef (Yabia Omer, Chelek Vav, Teshuvah Mem or Mem Aleph), writes how he can’t hide from all the good things which have occoured from the State of Israel.
In a footnote to Emes Liyyakov (Parshas Bo), they quote that Rav Yaakov considered the State of Israel to be a way of Hashem strengthening Jewish identity after the Holacaust.
The Tzitz Eliezer in his Hakadamh to his Sefer Hilchos Medinah writes about the great Chesed of Hashem in bringing the Jewish people back to EY (with the founding of the state of Israel.
Rav SF Mendelovitz was very excited about the UN proposal for a state and made a Shechiyany on it. (See one of the last chapters of Artscroll biography of him).
Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank viewed the State positively, according to testimony from a Talmid.
Rav Elya Meir Bloch, Rosh Yeshivas of Telz, co-hosted a YH event with Mizrachi. He writes a letter justifying it in which he writes that the mere existence of the state of Israel is of great significance, and that Aguda’s “war” against the secular goverment is not targeted against the state itself which is a good thing.
Rav Zevin, Rav Herzog, Rav Yosher Ber Soleveitzik, and Rav Aharon Solleveichik among other Gedolim celebrated YH. I know they weren’t associated so much with the Chareidi world, but they were nevertheless big Talmidei Chachomim and Gedolim and recognized as such by many of the Chareidi Gedolim (For example Rav Aharon Kotler eulogized Rav Herzog as “Sar Hatorah”)
Certainly, many Gedoim disagreed with these views. Examples include the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach, The Brisker Rav among others. The fact remains however that many Gedolim viewed did in fact consider the state of israel to be a positive thing, not a bad thing which we have to accept after the fact.

Keep in perspective that early 1900s to say 1950-70s, this was an ideological struggle – whether Jewish population will follow some of the Rabbis or follow some secular movements, whether Zionism, Bundism, or Communism. People had strong opinions about that. When you are trying to protect your community from the infectious ideology, you are not going to give them slack for still using Hebrew rather than Polish and Russian. In a long term, those who followed Zionists, fared better, both physically and spiritually, than those who followed other socialist movements.

Later on, it is more of an issue of interaction between different communities. If someone is leaving observance in our days, it is not because of Zionism, but of general secularism and of their teacher’s failures. So, we don’t need to re-fight those old wars.

“The telz roshei yeshiva changed drastically shortly after the founding of the state. Rav gifter was very anti zionist, and said that his rebbeim had changed their shitos – originally they celebrated yom haatzamaut, but it did not last long.”
Do you know for sure that he changed. Do you have a recording of Rav Gifter saying that Rav Elya Meir became anti-Zionist. Rav Elya Meir Bloch’s letter states black and white that he was pro the state of Israel. Hearsay doesn’t compare to a clear letter.

“Most of the rabbonim you quoted (besides rabbi yoshe ber, his brother rabbi aharon, and aharon Lichtenstein) did not believe in zionism – reb yaakov said that reading vayoel moshe had changed his perspective on zionism, for starters. But those who did show a certain amount of positivity were motivated by non-nationalistic kdeas. They felt it was a hatzolah after the Holocaust, that there was a safe place for jews (well, it wasn’t really safe, but that was the propaganda).”
I agree that that most of these Rabbonim didn’t want a state for nationalistic reasons. Their reasons for a state were very different than secular zionists. They felt it was a Hatzalah for the Jewish people after the Holacaust, which it certainly was. Over two hundred thousand Jews had no place to call home after going through the horrors of the Holacaust. If not for Israel they would have been stuck in the filthy conditions of the DP camps; unable to rebuild their lives. Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky also considered it good because it restored Jewish pride after the Holacaust. One can just imagine how much despair was felt, and how much hope and pride the Jewish people felt about having a state. Another Maaylah which was expressed by many Gedolim was simply the fact that through the state, millions of Jews returned to Eretz Yisroel, where we belong. Under Palestinian control, it would have been unimaginable for so many Jews to be allowed to live in Eretz Yisroel.
Regardless of their reason, they felt that having a state was a very positive thing, and was a present from Hashem. They did not feel that having a state was an anathema to Halacha, as someone wrote before.
Where is it quoted that Rav Yaakov was Chozer. The footnote of Emes Liyaakov, written by a close family member of Rav Yaakov, says that he would often express this idea. I would think he would know if he was Chozer.
Many of the Gedolim quoted viewed it as possibly part of Geulah. Rav Dessler writes that it’s difficult to call it “Aschalta Digeulah” (though he calls it a big Chesed), not totally outlying the possibility”. There is first hand account of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank calling the state “Aschalta “Digeulah”. Before the state was established, Rav Isser Zalman said, that having a state would be “Aschalta Digeulah.

“Rav Shra Feivel mendelowitz had said that he didn’t know for certain, but that he thought the state might be linked to the geulah – he said he’d wait to see what the gedolei hador say.”
Regarding Rav Shraga Feivel, a few days after he gave his talk in Torah Vidaas, about the state likely being part of the Geulah, the Satmar Rebbe yelled at Rav Shraga Feivel for his “Zionist” views. Rav Shraga Feivel later told his Talmidim that he could have answered him Chazal for Chazal, but he didn’t want to face his wrath, since he’s a Tzadik, and has a fiery temper. He told his Talmidim that if he was their age, he would go to Eretz Yisroel, and fight in the war of independence (Last chapter in Artscroll biography).
“Your post has many “proofs” from footnotes and artscroll books – talk to talmidim themselves, you’ll get a much clearer picture. I know about reb yaakov’s views because my rebbeim were talmidim of his; i really don’t care what “they” wrote about him”
Yonason Rosenblum, does a lot of research for his books. He talks to Talmidim who knew the Gedolim personally. His book on Rav Shraga Feivel is full of first hand accounts by Rav Nesanel Quin, a very close Talmid, and Chasuv Rav, as well as other students. The footnote of Emes Liyyakov was written by Rav Yaakov’s close family.
“It’s funny how you save the biggest names; the chazon ish and the brisker rov, as an afterthought – they were the gedolei hagedolim, the ones everyone else turned to. Rav desler, the ponevezer rov, the tzitz eliezer, would defer to them in a heartbeat. They don’t deserve to be a “yesh omrim”.”
I’m not sure that we can rank Gedolim, saying who was greater. The Chazon Ish and The Brisker Rav were Gedolei Olam, as were the Ponivitzer Rav, Rav Isser Zalman, and the other names quoted.
I don’t feel comfortable saying with certainty who was greater. It’s true that many of the Gedolim I mentioned would often defer to The Chazon Ish. In regards to their Hashkafah to the state, though they didn’t. If anything, this shows how strong their positive views on the state were.
It seems to me that the views of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc. were a minority. The other Gedolim would strongly criticize the secular nature of the state, but I don’t think they felt that the state was inherently a bad thing. Very rarely do you find the Agudah Gedolim bringing up the Shalosh Shevuos. The Steipler was an exception. Their criticism was mostly directed on the secularity of the state, not negativity about a state at all. I think it is also possible that the Chazon Ish and Brisker Rav would have changed their mind. They lived in the beginning of the state, when the founders were the “Shpitz” secular Zionists, who wanted a state to replace Torah. The future of Torah in the state seemed bleek. Only 400 Yeshivah students received an exemption from army service; it looked like religious Jews were a dying breed R”L. Even as more Torah spread in the state, it seemed like the anti-religious would uproot every segment of religion R”L. There was the terrible incident with Yemen, as well as other fiascos. Bichasdei Hashem, the nature of the state improved tremendously since then. There are B”H many more Yeshivos and Bnei Torah in the state of Israel than the Chazon Ish would have ever imagined. Many of them are even financed by the secular goverment themselves. Religious Jews in EY are nearing a majority. There is a big Kiruv movement in Ey, with Aish and Ohr Samayach receiving many students B”H. The old secular Zionist philosophy is almost in the wastebin. The only Real Zionists are the Dati Liumi/Chardal. Neither the Chazon Ish nor Brisker Rav could have ever predicted this. The Chazon Ish, in fact, assumed that the state would C”V crumble after just a few years.
” You also omitted dozens of gedolei hador who were vocally opposed, including rav shimon shkop, rav boruch ber, rav chaim ozer, rav chaim brisker, the munkatcher rebbe, satmar rov, lubavitcher rebbes until the last one, the steipler, rav yosef chaim zonnenfeld, rav hirsch, the rogotchover gaon, rav dushinsky…off the top of my head. I can provide many more and sources for each if necessary.”
I purposely ommited the Gedolim who lived before the Holacaust because the Holacaust made many people rethink their stance. Almost everyone agrees that before the war most Gedolim were against a state, some because of Shalosh Shevuos, but most because they felt there was no need, and they didn’t want a secular state. After the Holacaust, however, many reconsidered.Rav Yoshe Ber only allowed himself to become Zionist, against the Brisker Hashkafah, because he assumed that Rav Chayim himself would have changed his Hashkafah after the Holacaust. The need for a home for all the refugees, a need for Jewish pride, the need for a safe haven after such unspeakable horrors, as well as other factors, changed the mind of many Gedolei Yisroel. The Klausenberger Rebbe, a ferment anti-Zionist changed his Shitah after rebuilding his life in Eretz Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel which had previously been anti-Zionist, became Non-Zionist and mostly did not oppose the founding of Israel. They agreed to Ben-Gurion’s status quo and did not try to convince the UN otherwise. Rav Aharon Lopiansky, (Time pieces) adressing Aguda’s post-Holacaust stance, writes that they feel that it is unclear whether The state is good or bad. They can not call say Hallel on YH, when there is so much secularity in the state, but they can not say Kinnos either, when there is so much good. That piece was complimented by Rav Reuven Grovsky. Rav Lopiansky has stated numerous times, that the Hashkafah, his Rebbe, Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, of his father-in-law (previous RY of Mir), and the Mir as a whole was non-Zionist, not anti-Zionist. This is a far-cry from the Agudah’s previos stance. I therefore did not think it was fair to bring views of Gedolim from before the war. (I also ommited views of the Gedolim who supported it who died before the war, such as Rav Kook, Rav Teichtal, and possibly the Netziv, and Rav Meir Simchah).
There were Gedolim after the war who were opposed, whom i didn’t mention. There were also, however, many who were not opposed whom i didn’t mention. Rav Pam, for example seems to have viewed it positively. Rav Moshe seems to not have been concerned with the Shalosh Shevuos. Rav Baruch Sorotzkin assumed that the Satmar Rebbe was a Daas Yochid, and many other Gedolim were more neutral.
Also, as someone mentioned before, much of the pre-war opposition to the state, came not to having a state, but to associating yourself with secular movement which opposed religion. There was a huge danger that reading Zionist material and associating oneself with it’s leaders, would make someone not Frum. None of that danger exists in thanking Hashem for giving us a state, and viewing it’s existence positively.

“Rav ovadia was misled by menachem kasher’s forgeries in his teshuva permitting (not requiring) halel on YH. Many of the signatures on kasher’s placard were from rabbonim who had already been niftar. Rav ovadia was not at fault; he was tricked – this happens sometimes even to very big people.”
Rav Ovadya was misled by the forgeries to call it “Aschalta Digeulah”; that’s true. His being pro-the state has nothing to do with Rav Menachem Kasher though. He writes in his Teshuvah, how he can’t hide from the great things which have happened as a result of the state of Israel. He is making his own observations, not simply quoting Rav Menachem Kasher. In his Teshuvos about this topic he makes mention of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, Rav Herzog, Rav Kook, Rav Meshulem Roth, Rav Zevin, and other Gedolim who for sure were Zionist. This has nothing to do with Rav Menachem Kasher.

“I don’t believe that rav aharon called rabbi herzog the “sar hatorah”.”
i remember hearing that he did, but i don’t have a source offhand. Regardless, he certainly was Machshiv him tremendously, and he asked to speak at his Levayah, in which he spoke very highly of Rav Herzog. Rav Shlomo Hoffman asked Rav Aharon about Rav Herzog, as to which Rav Aharon responded that he knows him personally and can testify that he certainly classifies as a Talmid Chochom. Rav Herzog was also very close to Rav Dessler, and spoke in Ponivitze by his Levayah.

In 1967, Rav Shapiro Z’L went to Israel to assist in the war effort. I guess, actions say more than words. He also stopped at the Titus Arch and tried to marvel at the depiction of “Judaea Capta” contrasting the reality of the victorious Israel (despite the prohibition of not going under that arch).