Folding Talis on Crease on Shabbos

Issur #1- Preparing for after Shabbos.

Issur #2- Check the poskim. It is assur to do.

I don’t fold my tallit on shabbat at all. I fold it after I’ve heard havdalah in shul.

My rosh yeshiva said it’s not a problem. There is no hachana since you are not using after shabbos and there is no mesakain.

Folding on a crease it mutter and I do it every shabbos.

I think it is a kvisah problem; not a hachana problem. Look in a shmiras shabbos k’hilchasa; I’m sure you’ll find the sources.

15-45. He says it’s both (Not really k’visah; nireh kim’saken).

The source is S.A. O.C. 302-3. He says it is muttar to fold clothing on Shabbos l’tzorech Shabbos l’lovshom bo bayom (only for that day).

M.B. clearly implies that the reason is because it looks like m’saken mana (sp?), based on Rashi, bd”h bishnei, yeshonim, and tz’vuin (first three Rashis on the second Mishnah), Shabbos 113a.

It is likely not a hachana problom. Hachana is in genaral only a problom if what you are doing cannot be done after Shabbos. However since if you are not going to fold the tallis it will get all creased and ruined it is not preparation for after shabbos it is simply causing the tallis to not get wrinkled which can only be done now.

The Issur falls under the melacha of mechabes – or laundering. Part of the laudering prosses in the time of chazal/the mishkan was to fold. After they would wash the clothing it would be place somewhere on a creace and it would stay like that for a long time until it molded the the clothing so to speak. Keep in mind theye did not have clithing like we have now it was more large peices of material which without these fold would not havee much shape. As such many rabanom forbid folding a clothing item where you want the crease. SO for example folding a polo shirt would not really be part of the laundering prosses because you ar just folding it for organazation not because you want the crease. Folding suit pants however or a tallis are ussually the examples given where folding on shabbos would be problomatic. Thus you can probobly just fold it slopely or not on the creace this may avoid the problom. Colsult your compatent local rabbi.

Colsult your compatent local rabbi.

I guess you should consult the Mishna Berurah first. 🙂

I was told by my grandfather once that folding your ???? on ????? ??? is a ????? for ???? ???.

ananonmys: thats exactly the point. The folding is not to avoid wrinkling. You are folding it because you want the crease; this is true both with the tallis and the pants. And I am not personaly camparing anything. I am reporting to you and others who inquired what I have learned from my rebeim. At the same time I am sure their are rabanim who would paskin differently lehalacha. For those however who hold it is assur, the aformentioned is probobly why.

There are many, many types of Jews that wear a tallis regardless of marital status- not just Yekkes, but who is to say I’m not a Yekke? 🙂

Thank you, Sam 4321. I don’t understand how the AH”S says that the SH”A holds that the reason is only tikkun. The SH”A clearly distinguishes between a case where the tallis will be worn on Shabbos, and one in which it won’t be worn until after Shabbos. He definitely seems to hold of both reasons.

DY:thanks

yekke2:Your grandfather probably saw it in the Taamei Minhagim .The Magen Avraham actually gives a different reason he says that the Maharil had a special tallis and he used to fold right away in order to do a mitzvah right away and he said the people of tzippori(Berchas 53) would do the same.

I will look up the Rivevos Ephraim who talks about folding a tallis on shabbas.

Sam4321, Yitayningwut, (or anyone else)

Any ideas to answer my question on the Aruch Hashulchan?

I personally don’t do it. The rov in the shul in which I grew up always made a point to publicly fold his talis on Motzaei Shabbos.

Baal Habooze, interesting. The Mishnah Berurah (quoting Machatzis Hashekel) says that it is better not to fold the talis at all (even not on the creases), and does not take “kovos hatalis” into consideration at all (he says not folding is “vadai odif, certainly preferable), even though it is muttar meikar hadin.

Thank you. Now I know why you do (although I kind of figured…).

I had the same kasha about how preventing creases is considered a tikun (although, the isssur is actualy nireh kimisaken, which might be easier.)

His point about the “yesh mi shomer” I can understand, although I would think it does imply a machlokes. The Shach he mentioned is the Rema’s comment on the S.A., not the mechaber himself; to argue on the Machtzis Hashehel and M”B, he would need a raya from the mechaber alein. I do find it odd though, to say that the mechaber sides with the first shittah when he explicitly says “v’nirin d’vorov” o the second shittah.

He also doesn’t deal with the hachono issue (unless I missed it?).

I suppose you could say that the same way there’s no hachono issue, according to the second shittah, when the foldiing is not on the creases, there is also no hachono with today’s changed metzius. The Aruch Hashulchan doesn’t seem to do this though, since he needs to go with the Rishonim who don’t hold of it at all.

GAW- that exact exchange is documented to have occurred between the satmar rav and a chossid.

DaasYochid –

The truth is I don’t know the sugya well. However, I have heard him say regarding making beds and washing dishes that there is no problem of hachana because it is kavod Shabbos for things to be neat, so you are doing it for now. Perhaps that is the svara here too.

I don’t know.

haha 🙂